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Do you (Islamic people)think that greedy bankers, hawkish criminals and media eaters (their followers) have a place in Islam?

"(above all Western media)"

It is your stand that western media contains more misinformation than "ALL" other forms of media?

Am I too beleive you have been exposed to all forms of media in the world?




Carelessly throwing absolutes like "ALL" around,

is a quick way to tip an irrational, and thereby illogical, hand.

On topic...

Yes, I would like to think there is a place for all belief sytems in a western democratic society. We have laws to restrict unacceptable actions that may stem from the more extreme versions of mainstream religions.

This is of course in theory,

in practice...I don't know.

In the Province of Ontario, a small group of Islamic fundamentalists were pushing the Provincial Gov't to enact a Sharia (sic) family court to settle disputes. I think it was just a way for Islamic men to have legitimized control over Islamic women, in Canada. The idea was squashed right across the entire political landscape here. As far as there being a place for Islamic fundamentalists in the West? If we accept fundamentalists from other faith communities, and Western Nations provide for religious freedom...how can they be denied? Personally, religious fundamentalism practiced by any faith is a little scary anyway. As long as people and groups follow the laws of perspective countries...there is a place for all beliefs.

No fundamentalist of any religion should have a place in a western democratic society

Of course. ALL peoples have a right to participate in the political processes of their countries. In the same way that fundamentalists of other religions participate in voting, running for office, supporting electoral candidates, NGO and PVO activities, civic affairs, Muslim fundamentalists can and are an important part of any functioning 'Western' democracy.

Perhaps you are confusing 'Muslim fundamentalist' with 'terrorist', in the same unfortunate way President Bush did in his SoU speech last night?

There is in the US a concerted effort by a relatively small number of largely pro-Israeli people to equate 'Muslim' with 'terrorist'. It is an equation that is entirely false, in the same way that calling Tim McVeigh a 'Christian terrorist' would be false, or saying that all terrorists are Muslim. Out of ignorance, President Bush has for years echoed this incorrect assertion.

Fundamentalists are not more prone to terrorism just because they are fundamentalists. Is Pat Robertson a terrorist? Is there any doubt that he and his fundamentalist followers can participate in a democracy? We have fundamentalist Christians and Jews in the US Congress -- are they terrorists?

Oceans

It is not any sort of "quick way to tip..."
Media , wherever we go , including not aligned media is determined by the same "made in the West" structure: business on information. If you (collective you) think the CNN, BBC, DW etc, can say something serious against the system in whose wake they grow, then it is pleasant and confortable for all those who believe in that, never for me.
Business on information causes that information is always manipulated according to particular interests, so my "above all Western" comes from the fact that thing called freedom of speech or information, a basic part of your wonderful democracy, is only in the end freedom to make business with information.
In fact I was too quick in that post to add that only independent thinking away from prejudices and cliches can educate us ourselves. It is clear that many people are happy with their prejudices and lazy minds , so good for them.
Many absolute terrible things "made in the West" who are trialed by people who live out in the periphery like me do not come from "careless" bigotry thinking, but from a simple and open-minded look into human history. It needs to be away from the media and the cliché-culture to do so.

I agree completely. Fundamentalists exist in every religion so, to the poster, why just choose Islam?.

It's 'fashionable' nowadays to bash Islam simply because recent events, perpetrated by extremists, and used by the media to perpetuate a hate campaign based on fear, make it easy to do so.

Look back at the crimes committed in the name of religion, All religions, and you can come to the same flawed conclusions about each one of them.

thats a very nice speech....however sadly,the activities of late happen to focus on this religion/group,(i say "fundamentalist's because ,i understand perfectly well not all muslims are hardline fanatics) like it or not, thats the reality....thus the thread topic.

and your answer is?.......

Coincidently, once in OZ just after 9/11, I took a taxi van to the Brisbane Airport and I had this Caucasian beer-drinker-burguer&media-eater chubby driver telling me about the danger posed to "everyone" by the Muslims. I replied nothing because, sometimes stupidity in big quantities just makes my brain collapse; however I was somehow amused: I smiled and thought of people like the Nigerians (JUST TO BRING AN EXAMPLE TO MY MIND) whose land full of oil is just looted by oil companies from the wonderful paradise-like democratic societies. This looting that brings corruption, chaos, and utter human misery is not a kind of terrible agression and terrorism exerted by those fanatics of money and power... yeah of course that is only progress taking its toll, right??
(and to me that religion of power and money has been for quite a while the MOST DESTRUCTIVE FUNDAMENTALISM)
It is clear that the mind of many Westerners (not all of them of course) molded in the Hollywood battles of the good and the bad, the religion of appearances drawn by Consumerism and all that shit has contributed to make them become so conscious of the danger posed by the savage Muslims. Great!
While driving to the Airport, I pictured the ancestors of this big guy feeling menaced by the savage aborigines, thereby organising a hunting expedition of the uncivilised and nasty aboriginal people.

The survival of the fittest. Just f...g rubbish...

Democracy and fundametalist's of any religion, don't match. My answer is no. Will like to think yes, but it's not posible.




El Diablo

Your democracy goes very well with the Fundamentalism that worships GREED, SELFISHNESS and BARBARIE...

There are always exceptions in life..

yes unfortunately...there are isolated examples of ignorance everywhere in the world (peru as well i imagine) however, this thread was posted to get the views ,as too wether or not people
felt elements in that particular section of the muslim world could/would even want to intergrate into western culture.

Hey nothing or nobody it's perfect.




El Diablo

Is that sarcastic or serious?

Perhaps you can clarify your question?

1. Are you suggesting that fundamentalists cannot participate in demoncracy because they are terrorists, or that they cannot participate in democracy because of some other characteristic(s) that you attribute to them? If so, what do you suggest it is?

2. Are you suggesting that there is something about Islam that is intrinsically unsuited to democracy? If so, what is it?

3. Do you accept the concept that "fundamentalism" does NOT equal "terrorism"?

Thanks for your responses.

Oceans

I do not think there are isolated cases of ignorance, here or there. The isolated cases are those of clarity about where the hell our world is driving to.
Ignorance is mainly promoted by those holding the power.
As this barbarie became more and more clear it was urgent for those controlling society to find the ways to brainwash people. Media and school are two of the most efficient weapons.
Do not want to be mean but in OZ I found many many people loving "America" even as much as the US people supporting brainy Georgi W.B.
It reminded me of the mob of Spanish speaking inmigrants in the US (many of them from Peru, of course) who find the reason of their lives in defending the noble struggle for freedom and democracy commanded by good old George.

Cheers George!!!

There are a LOT of problems with "Western culture": greed, gambling, overweening competition, overbearing marketing and sales-based commercialism, etc. Fundamentalists generally are in part reacting to these toxic elements in Western culture and seeking to find healthier alternatives. I do not suggest that they are coming up with superior alternatives, only that they are trying to do so. Muslim fundamentalists are trying to do this as well. They are in a slightly different boat than fundamentalists based in the West; for Muslims in the Third World, Western culture is also associated with Western colonialism. Western culture has come with colonial initiatives and is viewed as a powerful tool of colonialism. So not only is Western culture suspect, but it is viewed as something that abets colonial seizure of territory and the functions of governance.

But "Western culture" is not the same as "democracy", and this is perhaps where this discussion has gone in circles. For example: Franco, Mussolini and Milosevic are certainly well embedded within Western culture; Thatcher ditto; Reagan ditto; Bush ditto -- and yet they each participated in anti-democratic activities of major magnitude.

The structures of democracy were included fundamentally in Islam since its inception 1400 years ago, based largely on the deeply democratic tradition of Arab nomadic tribes and the Hellenic tradition. To the extent that you view Christianity as intrinsically pro-democracy, you will note that Islam has a deep respect for Christianity and its values, and that Jesus is referred to in the Quran far more than Muhammad.

So, fundamentalist or non-fundamentalist, Islam is entirely compatible with democracy. But shared with many non-Muslim others, there is a serious skepticism of "Western culture" in its economic, spiritual and social manifestations.

As you may have gathered, it is a skepticism that I share, though I am no fundamentalist at all.

I hope this clarifies things a bit.

Oceans

Hi, Jose,

Interesting posts. Thank you.

Can you say a bit about how the term 'democracy' is now being viewed in Peru?

Oceans