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Thanks for kind rapport,Oceans,
I will try and be short because I have to come back to work...
Well, first of all I know you are right, Western civilization and democracy are not the same. Democracy is nowadays just (apart from naive ideas about it) a banner useful to put at work the new ways to press down human beings (including the Western population itself) I think it was clear many years ago that Capitalism needed new methods of control (in part the greatest teacher of this was the attempt of a new kind of slavery run by the Soviets). Certainly the result has not been less diabolic than the Capitalism controlled by the State in my opinion. The present plans to control human life are underway, so we will see in the near future.
As for Peru, that is a long story. Our history is different to yours. We were victims of Western expansion while you were the recipients of the looting. It makes a big difference.
The atomic bomb dropped over Andean Culture 500 years ago has produced what you see in a country like this nowadays. Politicians and well-fattened intellectuals can repeat all that hum-drum stuff of democracy in Peru (and certainly, they say, we have to follow the brilliant steps of your societies that have discovered such a great thing for mankind) but in the end Democracy is only an operating ideological concept (as in your countries but in different fashion) that brings continuity to a terrible situation of looting (that one that has never ended), and human misery. Democratic politicians here are just open gangsters that take over only to become rich through giving advantageous contracts to Western companies or just taking the money of the national treasure. In this respect, the historical continuity is there. This country was born as a place to be looted (by the Spanierds) and has continued to be like that until today.

I think this historical continutiy can also be applied to the West: Democracy is not a higher state of human life yielded by human evolution, it is just the present stage of this kind of human barbarie that has been around for quite a while.
Cheers

If you read in the forum there are more that DO NOT like George Bush than do! (American)

“Muslim fundamentalists can and are an important part of any functioning 'Western' democracy.”
How? Why?
“Is Pat Robertson a terrorist?”
To a degree, his hateful rants are about the same as that as the muslim fanatics. Don’t listen to him any more than I do the Mexicans who want us to learn Spanish or the muslims who want us to all die for being unbelievers.
“It's 'fashionable' nowadays to bash Islam”
Fashionable? More like calling a spade a spade.
“I took a taxi van to the Brisbane Airport and I had this Caucasian beer-drinker-burguer&media-eater chubby driver”
Perfect example of your double standards. Guess only those in the US are expected to accept others without generalized slurs, and you boys from Peru should be applauded for your discriminatory remarks, lack of tolerance and abundance of ignorance.
“whose land full of oil is just looted by oil companies from the wonderful paradise-like democratic societies…”
RFLMAO, yeah, like you never got anything for it, we just stole it right?
“Just f...g rubbish...”
Summarizes my opinion of your “views”.
“there are isolated examples of ignorance everywhere in the world (peru as well i imagine)”
Jose is a perfect example.
“2. Are you suggesting that there is something about Islam that is intrinsically unsuited to democracy? If so, what is it?”
Their entire way of life is structured around inequality. Between sexes, sects… Completely contradicts the concept of a democracy where everyone is supposed to be equal.
“3. Do you accept the concept that "fundamentalism" does NOT equal "terrorism"?”
I do, but the basic “teachings” of the religion are intolerance.
“Ignorance is mainly promoted by those holding the power…Media and school are two of the most efficient weapons.”
I would say that a lot of the ignorance amongst muslims is the result of them holding their own down by destroying schools and such, with the kids and teachers still in them. And it was one of their own who sent that execution tape to the net, to incite more unrest.
“It reminded me of the mob of Spanish speaking inmigrants in the US (many of them from Peru, of course) who find the reason of their lives in defending the noble struggle for freedom and democracy commanded by good old George.”
IF they had been doing it in their own country, trying to make themselves better instead of trying to come to our country and demanding that we accommodate their whims, then I would have listened to what the mob had to say. Not a chance in hell I am going to learn Spanish just to have someone try to tell me what to do in my own home, and try to imply I owe them ANYTHING, when I DON’T.
“If you read in the forum there are more that DO NOT like George Bush than do! (American)”
He would have to be open minded, fair, unbiased, and interested in reality before he could even get his head around that little fact.
Until muslims can give as good as they are demanding they get, they will never grasp the concept of democracy anyway.

Jose, a thought. Perhaps the best way to think of 'democracy' is "one person, one vote." That is, everyone has an equal vote in electing people to preresent them. If this is all democracy really is, then it provides no automatice defense against a society being exploited by a few dominant leaders or corporations. To be able to provide the hope of such protection to the society, the people have to be knowledgeable about what is going on, and select their leaders wisely. All too often, though, the ignorance of the electorate makes it easy to manipulate them. In the last relaction of President Bush in this country was have a perfect example of this.

In the old Periclean idea of democracy, the voters were expected as a civic duty to educate themselves about the issues, and were required -- required -- to listen to and participate in debates on the issues.

Our educational and information system in the US is not really designed to ensure an educated population. It seems at times to me that the opposite is true. And too many people prefer too much of the time to be entertained, rather than than learn and think about issues.

How easy is it in Peru for people to find out what is going on and to inform themselves about political issues or the backgrounds of candidates for office? How seriously do the ordinary people want to participate in political affairs and understanding the issues? Is the reporting in the press adequate to understand the issues, assuming that people want to understand them? I know, a lot of questions!

Cheers,
Oceans

Hi,
Thanks for the response.
I'll try and hit the highlights.

1.“Muslim fundamentalists can and are an important part of any functioning 'Western' democracy.”
How? Why?

Muslim fundamentalists live right now in every Western democracy. Generally and probably more so than most other major religious groups, they live peacefully, productively and responsibily. In the US, for example, they start small businesses, exceed the rest of the population in terms of charity, and now, after September 11, have begun to be more involved in local politics, even though there has been a lot of anti-Muslim abuse since September 11. These patterns are mirrored in germany, the UK, France, Netherlands, Italy, etc. etc.

2. Islam is actually quite tolerant. Have you had a chance to read the Quran, or get to know practising Muslims? I have been fortunate to be able to do so. Islam honors Christians and Jews as "Peoples of the Book", and view themselves as being part of the Abrahamic tradition. Islam preaches an absolute pohibition on attacking civilians and innocent people in cases of war. yes, it is also true that many Muslims around the world feel that the US has directly and indirectly oppressed them, and they are angry at the US for doing so. But then, many non-Muslims are similarly angry at the US, as are many Americans. Some of these have taken up arms against the US, and some of these have engaged in terror acts against the US and others viewed as oppressors, e.g. Israel. But all would willingly lay down their arms if such oppression were to stop.

3. I propose that you ask yourself why the US is routinely now around the world considered to be the primary terrorist country in the world. I know this is a hard fact for Americans to swallow. We are not 'hated' because we value freeedom, etc. We are hated by some because we have embraced policies that are viewed as oppressive by others. I know that the American people are kind and generous and fair at heart, but in our name, our government has over the last decades engaged in international activities that have resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent people, and in the loss of land and sustenance to far more than that. Every now and then we DO 'get it right', but too often, sometimes swayed by narrow interest groups who are not interested in the well-being of the US or the fairness of our international policies, we 'get it wrong', and people die, are maimed, and left to live in poverty as a result.

Someday, I deeply hope, we will mesh our basic decency with true knowledge about the rest of the world, and become a true and reliable force for international good.

Oceans

I'm new to this forum so perhaps bear with me.
Often Fundamentalism is manifested in extremism...that is a desire to make an abritrary literal translation of texts and it's formed doctrine. As humans, we conflict in the sense that we take to be literal that which is only an image.
Islam, Christianity, Judaism...all have their fundamental ( extreme ) cases. It is pluralism..often taken as democracy...that tempers these extremes to a more consistent statement...that which can be shared by all.
American Democracy exemplifies a desire that ," all can share a common goal and , eventally a belief...All are created equal etc.
Capitalism ...survival....has no equal platform...but a competitive structure. So Democratic Capitalism works against itself.

Hi Bhuddha,
Welcome to CS and the Forums.

Did you catch Webb's rebuttal to Pres. Bush? Quite remarkable, re. what is happening economically in the US. What did you think?

Oceans

"But "Western culture" is not the same as "democracy", and this is perhaps where this discussion has gone in circles. For example: Franco, Mussolini and Milosevic are certainly well embedded within Western culture; Thatcher ditto; Reagan ditto; Bush ditto -- and yet they each participated in anti-democratic activities of major magnitude."

i dont think this discussion has gone in circles...rather a lack of unwillingness to accept some basic facts.

1:those few dictators/leaders you mention are isolated examples throughout history,therefore a "convenient" way to show a clear divide between western culture and democracy, that doesnt exist.

2:"western culture" is just that. a culture encompassing many things
democracy as we know it, being an intregal part.how you can try to justify such a statement.? other than those "examples" you put foward.i would be interested to hear.

Western Civilization just encompasses one thing: DESTRUCTION.
Its foundations are those made out of piles of rubble and suffering.
Too much karma behind just secures so much more suffering now and later.

Hi, Red,

The point I am suggesting is that 'democracy' and 'Western culture' are not the same, nor is there a one-to-one relationship between them.

Some countries with 'Western culture' have been democratic, and some are not. Some 'democratic' societies have been Western and have not.

The importance of this vital distinction is as I suggested earlier: Muslim and any other fundamentalists can and do participate in either. For example: Sikh fundamentalists participate fully in both Western and non-Western democracies (e.g. the US and India).

In your postings, you have as far as I can see used the terms 'democracy' and 'Western culture' interchangeably -- thus the confusion.

Not knowing which one you are trying to address, I have tried to answer your question about the participation of Muslim fundamentalists in either situation. Muslims (fundamentalist or not) can and do fully participate in both Western and non-Western democracies (e.g. the US and India, Germany and Pakistan, Italy and Indonesia, etc.) As I explained, democracy (equality, consent of the ruled and consensus) is an old tradition going back to Arab tribal governance, long before the United States was founded.

I hope this helps.

Oceans

thats a very anti west view?....sounds biased...unbalanced. is that view based on personal experience?...or the misleading west's propaganda machinery ie media youve read or heard?

yes....but the "democracy" your speaking off in those muslim cultures differs vastly in its structure...compared directly to western democracy as we know it.for example

would you deem it democratic for a government in the west to outlaw the sale of alcohol based on religous belief...rather than what the majority of its population wanted...if it wanted that?

would you deem it democratic for a government passed laws dictating dress codes for women?

democracy depends on the culture you apply it to
its not as simplistic as you suggest , i believe to the term is
"you must compare apples with apples"

"2. Islam is actually quite tolerant. Have you had a chance to read the Quran, or get to know practising Muslims?"
Yes. I don't buy into any media source really. I go by what I see and hear, my own personal experience, and can only go by those muslims I have encountered. Have only met/interacted with those who are completely intolerant, even of Americans here in America. Have only seen the negative "version". Sure, I know that there are bad and good in every group, or at least there is supposed to be, but I haven't seen any of that good yet. I look for it, but can't find it. And their texts are interpreted radically differently by the different sect, and if they can't even get along amongst themselves due to these differences, then I really don't see how they are going to be any better at it when facing a culture that is completely opposite in every way.

Yes, 'democracies' can have different structures. The key issue, it seems to me, is whether whatever structure they use produces a representative government.

IIRC, Hitler came to power through six democratic elections, so having a democracy is not the end of the story.

In the US, which I gather you are positing as an ideal example of 'Western democracy', we have a government dominated by lobbyists and special interest groups. We are stuck with a government for a pre-determined set of years, and it is almost impossible to get rid of a bad or unpopular leaders before their term is up. Other Western democracies have parliamentary structures, where government can be changed when they become unacceptably unpopular, e.g. UK.

I agree with you that governments should not dictate what people can and cannot wear, but it seems that most do, whether they are democratic or not. For example, in the US most governments have prohibitions in public places on clothing that is too revealing. These dress codes pertain to both men and women. And many US jurisdictions have laws that prohibit or control the sale of liquor -- based on religious beliefs. Liquoe and many other things: we call these 'blue laws', though I am not sure where this term came from.

One of the challenges that faces all societies, democratic or not, Western or not, is how to balance individual rights vs those of society at large, minority rights vs majority ones. A lot of the laws we object to are instances we believe where this balance is poorly exercised.

In my opinion, all societies are evolving, all face largely the same challenges, all are trying -- sometimes wisely, sometimes not -- to find answers to these challenges. As our world has 'globalized' we have become more aware to the scope of this struggle. There are things to admire and things to criticize in all societies.

We are privileged to live at a time of great change in the world, and privileged should we wish to do so to be able to participate constructively in this effort. All peoples have an important part to play in this.

Oceans

Hi LOL,

Thanks for reading through all these posts! I'm going to have to start shortening them, I know.

I hope you keep reaching out to Muslims in the US. I have found them quite different than is your experience so far. Yes, there is a lot of anger among some of them for the way they have been treated, in the US since Sept. 11, and in the rest of the world since the beginning of Europe's colonial expansion, but I have found this to be the exception, and that more than most, individual Muslims are quick to respond to the person they are interacting with, and not blame him or her for the ills of our government. Interesting how our experiences have been so different in this respect.

Yes, there is a lot of difference of opinion in the Muslim world on interpreting theology, and some of this has led to struggle between various groups. I think all relgions have been vulnerable to this, though nothing quite equates to the destruction created by the rifts in Christianity between Catholics and Protestants, the Hundred Years War, or the Inquisition.

Maybe some day, we humans will get it right.... <sigh>

Oceans

“Yes, there is a lot of anger among some of them for the way they have been treated, in the US since Sept. 11”
So why are they so baffled by the anger of the rest of the country for having thousands of innocent civilians murdered in one day?
“individual Muslims are quick to respond to the person they are interacting with, and not blame him or her for the ills of our government.”
Opposite of my experience, complete opposite. By now, I am wondering if they wouldn't have to at least be able to get along amongst themselves, (having at least SOME common ground, it would be good practice/good lesson on tolerance and acceptance of others) before they could ever be capable of getting along with a culture that is directly opposed in its "teachings". I just have a hard time believing they have it in them when daily they are trying to kill each other, and have been for as long as I have been alive.
And going back into ancient history is a waste of time IMO. Anyone can trace back their roots and find some crime committed against their ancestors. I only have to go as far as my cousin, and only 10 years ago, who was murdered because of what we are. But do I hold that against all of Europe, heck no.

I think there is a link between western governments historical failure to deal with fundamental human rights issues within the Middle East. That over time has fuelled and given rise to global terrorism.

First off, as far as "western" goes, I think it confuses things, as you are lumping a whole lot of countries into one. As far as the US goes, your remarks can be taken two ways. Either we are damned for being sick of the abuses by the islamics, or we are damned for allowing them to continue.

Yes, I think there is a lot of insight in your observation.

One of the things that al-Qaida accused the US of in justifying the attack on Sept 11. was US military and economic support for repressive regimes in the Muslim world. There are several examples of this, including our support for the Shah of Iran against his own people and our overthrow of the democratically elected government there in 1953. Our support for the Saudi government is also cited, though there I think there is some personal history that discounts the accusation.

US blind support for Israel is another and probably the main reason.

It is hard for the American people to sort all this out. US schools teach very little about the Middle East, and much of what has been taught since Sept 11 with hastily assembled teaching guides is pretty bad in terms of comprehensive coverage, facts, and bias. The US media and the Internet are flooded with misinformation, some coming from special interest groups and some from our own administration. I think that it is wonderful that despite all this Americans are seeing through much of the misinformation.



Oceans