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Good point, about anger. But think about it:

If 'they' should understand why we are angry for having (3) thousand killed, shouldn't 'we' understand why they are angry that we have killed, at last report some months ago, 665,000 in Iraq, to say nothing of the tens if not hundreds of thousands of Palestinians that have been killed by Israelis using US arms, or the thousands that we killed in Lebanon some years ago, or Iranians via SAVAK, or the dozens that we have killed in the last weeks in Somalia?

What happened to your cousin? Sounds pretty sad.

Oceans

Hi Code,
Whatever you say, my statement is absolutely true... I would like to hear substantial reasons why it is only bigotry and hatred against the after-all-not-bad West.... Just tell me why it is BIASED, UNBALANCED... I would like to know, mate... I would be happy to be seen my views changed by your open-mindedness and your sensitiviness.

On the other hand what you say is a very typical selfish thing of many people...
.. just take any example..... there are many out there ... just because I mean by destruction not only the actual massacres against other humans and cultures perpretated by Western countries but a lot more.. (and please that stuff of "other cultures did same things" is out of context in this discussion about the present consequences of Western civilization, in particular the clash with the Muslim world..... so don´t bring it now, that "human nature" subject belongs to other sphere related to human agresiveness and tendencies to self-destruction, so it can be discussed somewhere else)

Well, let´s take an example... uhmm.. A big discovery of oil in the Peruvian jungle... all the rational patterns say we need to take the oil out... Okay ...now... Let´s ask the native people, the animals, the plants, the rivers, the mountains .. what is going to happen to them? sick-selfish people should be there on the shoes of the suffering ones... I would like to see them there.
Now I ask you where are the mechanisms of your democracy to let those beings say something against that crime done by your civilisation?... also, why don´t we ask all those rottening in poverty making little salaries by working for those big-companies, who is going to make their bank accounts bigger with all that money (sorry that is called Progress by you, I know)
Is there an act of destruction in my example?... what is the constructive thing there?

Yes, my views are completely against Western Civilization as a system of life that is driving this planet to total destruction, that is making human beings smaller than ever in all human history... can't you see the damage?... when hurts are shut... never.
(I know many of you would simply like to equalise Caucasian races to Western Civilization and find an enemy of you in all those who think in terms of anti-western civilization categories..., that is just a poor shitty excuse people like Bush use to put "Anti-Western Civilization feelings" in the same sack of their insane gang of criminals and hatred-carriers)

I can see the damage everywhere. Good if you can´t just because it will give you the image of happiness, so enough peace to watch the next TV rugby game with a good cold beer..


And what about Western Civilization then?
I have just lived enough to see its abolute lack of spirituality, its cruelty, its way to get "knowledge" (that "marvelous" thing called science and technology intrinsically related to destructive mechanisms and greed), its absolute antagonism to nature (being the man just an artificial thing "taming" and "controlling" nature)... and so much more.

Since stopping all this madness would encompass becoming humble and asking for forgiveness to this planet and all those masacred in the name of greed ... (and this would include many practical things.... say, the suppression of Western Civilization .. and this act would have nothing to do with hatred or more massacres...so Bush and those alike would have to go and come to grips with their rotten souls) then I know this is impossible.
Confort and little things around life make people shut their hearts. There is no force in this planet to change that. WE are so doomed.
... (to be continued)

(continuation)

As for your joky statement, I have to dissapoint you, the media is the last shit I take into account. I rather eat shit in the gutter before shaping my mind with the emptiness produced by those mercenaries. My mind is not lazy at all, so I wait for your unbiased and quite balanced arguments on behalf this great civilization......
Any GOOD argument (but I mean GOOD) is welcome
Joe

Hi Oceans,
I will try to be short again.
I suppose that the availability of information is the same as in your country. I mean all formal stuff, who knows what is behind politicians?
There is, however, a big difference. In your country there are national tasks that should be done just because the machinery has to work, in countries like mine, the functioning is a lot more erratic. It gives the politicians a lot of room to lie to people while campaigning and do all what they want to become rich once they take over.... You would have to see the corruption of politicians here to understand what I say. In relation to this, I have heard many times that Western people say that one of the reasons of our being backward is the corruption, that we do not know about ruling ourselves, etc, etc. I think that is a very superficial argument. It is absolutely clear that the system is corrupted first of all because the big countries profit on this corruption (I can not go long to prove this here). JUst look into the profitable contracts Western companies make here by shaping the laws taylor-made (through their lobbies with the politicians holding power)to understand what I am saying.

As for your second question, people here have the instinctive perception that politicians won´t change their lives. People know they rob, so now they elect "that one who might rob less..." People here are forced to vote (by imposing fines to them) otherwise I am sure they would not go... Brainy analysts would say "it is because they need education"... (with real education people would lynch all politicians right away... as it has already actually happened somewhere in the country) yes, the masses can be quite ignorant but they are not brainless to understand that what is called Democracy here is just a mask of the same thing we have lived for many years.... I think in that way people here are less naive than you folks when it comes to talk about democracy as the thing it really is.... though my people will always vote for someone (maybe because they are forced to,or their votes are bought with millionaire campaigns, or just they have to believe in someone as many people feel as a necessity..)

As for the last question:
I know the press works here the same way it works in your country. The tale of objectiveness and balance of theirs is just a tale. Maybe in your country there are still some real subjects to discuss (like keping the troops killing many in the name of that democracy or the sort) but in mine most of the subjects go around privte business of these politicians or jut bullshit. Everybody in the media has interests to look after. Media is just one of these weapons to push people down. Every media big boss can have his own preferences according to his own lobbies, therefore they can disclose scandals, attack adversaries and do all kinds of show...... the truth is far behind this bunch of superficial things. They just keep people distracted with shit, that is another task (exactly like in your country when they come up with complete reports of the lives of those small human beings called celebrities or the sort just to keep people amused)

We are as misinformed as other people in the world.

Hi Loljuzme,
I know you see everything from your insuperable wisdom, so I will have to be very careful. In fact I know we have very different conceptions of life. Yours the predictable ones, mine just those of an ignorant.
In fact, I won´t go pulverising some of your very Western rants because I am too ignorant, you have caught me in my real essence!!!
Well, maybe I deserved a direct message with all your points against mine, but I do not, I know. I can see your genius smashing in one go all those things that upset your peaceful life at home.

Okay now you can tell me about uhmmm.. for example... the way all Western companies work in the world... I just want to hear... I also want to learn about the history of Western civilization too, from your semingly clear views.. I want to hear.

Yes, I was derogatory about the chubby narrow-minded aussie guy, just because once in this life you (those exactly like you) also have to be payed with the same coin you have been "granting" others for many many years (my you is collective and it is directed to people like you of course) Before hearing that idiot in the taxi I was in Alice Springs and other places in the Australian desert, so I was taught by many whites living there those manners when it came to talk about the aboriginal people. I am a good student too (in fact my intolerance, my ignorance and other like pearls are Western products living in me too), you can see, but I do not expect to be applauded or approved of because I know in the spiritual scale where exactly my low words and attitudes are located. I am talking about something you won´t ever know, of course. In that respect you would have to confront my ancestors to yours... Big difference!!

Your use of certain words is a commonplace in societies like yours. Just show me how wise you are by replying a couple of the questions I have posed to you here. Show me and I will believe you and ask for forgiveness.

Strong cliches and worn-out insults are never enough my dear friend. At least not for me.

Just one thing about your heartful defense of that democracy others like me and the Muslisms could never understand: why can that wonderful thing let Bush and lunatics like him become the conductors of your country?
(by the way, what you say about the inmigrants show how deffensive you are and how little you can undestand, in fact my point about the Peruvian inmigrants was derogatory so I was not supporting those at all... seems you do not know your own language... you have to know what I htink: to me, inmigrants are usually (with exceptions of course)the scum of a country... sounds a familiar fact? )
I know though, I am flogging a dead horse. Your little heart and your little eyes that I can feel from here can tell me that.
Have a good day, honey.
José

Our friend Loljuzme mentioned that the Arabs are what they are amongst other reasons because they destroyed their schools and barbarie like that.
I have in my hands a new edition of the Cambridge University about the history of schooling in Europe. Let´s read about the first Universities founded in Europe!!!
Either our friend needs a flight-ticket to Spain jut to go on a tour to see the Muslim Universities there or I need to write to the CNN and ask them to put a documentary about that. Our media-eater needs it... though maybe just to get dissapointed with such a kind of terrorist propaganda!!

That is imposible...such people do not have a room in the modern world and there is no way you are going to convince such people to accept realities of life and be tolerant to non muslim...

ok jose

A truth in one's own mind, is their own reality. And your perfectly entitled to believe that, just as others believe differently, based upon their own personal experiences.
Your statement clearly reflects your beliefs/dis-enchantment with the west..it is not up to me to prove or disprove your opinions.

but i must say ,this thread topic has some what strayed from the original question,and headed of in the direction of analyzing the
the crimes /sins of the west???

I would understand that they would feel disappointed that their attacks haven't been more successful. But by attacking our country they pretty much asked for it. Or were we just supposed to roll over and cave to whatever they demanded? Did they think that one blast would win the "war" against us, and they would just come marching in and take over, and all women would be wearing veils etc by now? Still wondering people think would have happened if the US had done nothing.
As far as my cousin goes, off topic as it has nothing to do with this conflict. Only reason I mentioned it was because she was murdered due to her heritage alone, but I don't hate all of Europe for it.

I am satisfied with your answers and your sense of how relative our perceptions about things are. A well-known Western scientist facing some puzzles from the microcosmos said that "Reality is not something that can be copied with lithmus paper"
"A truth in one´s own mind is their own reality " I have heard few people using such a deep kind of wisdom.
In fact this would be a great advance for mutual understanding if modern Westerners would stop talking in terms of ABSOLUTE categories like: "civilised beings" "democracy" "progress" and so on.
You have to realise that many "intolerant" responses toward the West from other people are activated by the same degree of violence and intolerance originally coming from it. Certain people like GW Bush have a mental reality that unable them to see this simple thing. I cabe a case of acute neurosis.

Relativism of all things would be a good beginning for changes.

As for our going off the initial problem you posed, it is true, unfortunately threads in forums tend to be chaotic.
Maybe because everything is connected to one another???
Cheers

i am satisfied you have the intellect to understand that

Yes, muslim fundamentalists are terrorists in a way... Don't they terrorize their women by suppressing their human rights and by demeaning them as human beings? In my opinion this is a form of terrorism...

Muslim fundamentalists per se do not oppress women, any more than Christian or Jewish ones do. Islam recognized rights for women long before Christianity got around to it, especially in the areas of property and family law.

Some areas of the Muslim world DO oppress women, IMO, but this is based not on Islamic precepts but on local and sometimes tribal ones. For example, the Taleban in Afghanistan are repressive of women, but their doctrine is rejected by the vast majority of fundamentalist Muslims.

Similarly, we have some Christian and Jewish sects that are repressive women, but we would not automatically call these fundamentalist. Similarly, some Hindu groups repress women (e.g. child marriage (See BANDIT QUEEEN for more info)), but it is not because of Hindu fundamentalism, but in this case some fairly widespread practices carried out by Hindus fundamentalist or not.

I know that life would be simpler and thinking easier if we could set up the simplistic equations of "fundamentalist = terrorist" but reality is more complicated, and the issue more important.

Then, you suggest that such repression is terroristic.... Intriguing use of the term. If we allow repression of women to be called terroristic, than many behaviors of governments and societies around the world must also be considered terror, beginning with the US invasion and occupation of Iraq. The death toll there -- caused by US invasion and occupation, in now well over 660,000. Pretty repressive, I would say!



Oceans

"Yours the predictable ones, mine just those of an ignorant.
I assume I am considered predictable because most of what I post is just common sense, but since you were kind enough to inform me that yours were just out of ignorance, I know not to bother reading the rest of your post, so don't expect a response