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As I remember the Constitution written by Jefferson.
It began "We the People, in order to form a more perfect union"
They were very practical and pragmatic our founding fathers.
They understood that perfection was something very hard to
achieve. That is the starting point by the way for separation of Church and State, by the way.

Hence they did not say...to establish a 'perfect union'. And they gave 'rights' that later became intrepretted as freedoms. I feel there
to be a sutle difference there. Rights are something you exercise. Freedoms are something given.

They just wanted it "much better" than what they were getting with a
Crown/Royalty kind of dictated government. They wanted a voice in it.
And the 'right' to exerice that voice....hence freedom of speech, freedom of press and even freedom to bear arms. If it it did not turn out the way that they wanted it too. Follow that thought to the American Civil War please.

What has happened over the 231 years, since it was written. Has been many, many court decisions and legislative acts to either define, alter, reinforce or make new areas of the document and refine its spirit of intent.

It is this later that become the political whim and the court discretion
where so much of the troubles lay today. Presidents place Supreme Court Justices to the bench simply because they rule according a thier desire. Follow that to Row vs Wade and a woman's right to abortion.
Constitution says absolutely nothing about abortions. But the
Supreme Court Justices made it apply to them. They made Constitional law with it.

Legislatures that have a hard time with a area of rights (e.g.
right to bears arms) modify it with legislation (you can own a single shot shut gun but have limited ability own a assault rifle). I think that you are seeing the points. But here again, the founding father had no idea to an assault rifle or what it could do in a high school shooting
incident.

I say give the elected leaders a break some. This world is changing fast.
Technology to terrorism to nuclear conflicts are all things that our founding fathers would have had trouble understanding and addressing. To ask our elected leaders facing those things with a document that was not written addressing them? To ask them to stay totally within the letter of it? To hold them fully accountable to it?

Do I like the idea of freedoms (er exercised rights) evaporating. No.
Nor do I like the idea of nuclear terrorism or a American President someday held for nuclear blackmailed by a binLaden. If he listens in on some foreign phone calls, where have my rights and freedoms been breached? If he placed the entire US military in the middle east, again where has that effected my rights and freedoms?

There is the 'real world' of today and the more perfect union of our forefathers. They are vastly different.

Very interesting observations and comments, my thoughts also, on the subject of freedom. In reality it is a relative concept just as much as anything else we've invented for ourselves considering a huge and still growing population and the necessity for order and civilization; also what you have to keep in mind is that because in the US there are more lawsuits and use of the courts, also more laws result in the process thus further defining/restricting acceptable behavior amongst ourselves.

Just my observations, but it seems to me that freedom has a greater hold on the 'old world' nations ie: europe than it does in the US. where freedom is pretty much the banner of life here. contradiction?

In europe, there have been many women as heads of state, while in north america, women havent held those posts ever, though some lesser political posts have been, the highest in the land have not been garnered by women. While there are no laws preventing women here, there sure is a mentality, slowing them down.

Sex in most european countries is not the issue it is in US. Here it is considered evil still, censored more than you can shake a stick at; while in europe it is not, people are not ostrisized, in fact one is allowed free choice in sexuality an openness one cannot find in the US. not talking about depraved sex either, just open minded sexuality

Some european countires have legalized marijuana laws and others just don't bother with its legality or illegality, leaving people to choose for themselves, while in the US it oppressed, and stiff penalties are the order of the day.

The internet is far more controlled in the US than in most european countries, though even I do beleive some things about it need control, freedom is still now and will always be about free choice, not government restriction.

I find it odd that in the beginning, The US fought for freedom from its parental european countries, carrying the banner of freedom yet lag far behind in real freedoms now. They are too numerous to mention, freedoms and freethinking, let alone freedom to be as you want to be, freedom to make your own choices. There are more laws in the US that stomp on freedom than anywhere in the old world countries.

The irony is that people came here to be free, yet impose far more restriction than the places they left. Of course these are just my observations but it sure seems the US lacks the very thing it holds as its banner in numerous ways.

I'm not constitutional scholar, but my understanding was that the states were to be a loose confederation. The primary role of the the Federal Government was to provide for the common defense of the conferation of states. It's my view that the forefathers would roll over in their graves if they saw the way the constitution has been wrecked.

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It does seem odd that many of the newly elected heads of state from Canada, France and even Germany are friendlier now with the United States. Perhaps they see a problem with "madmen" flying planes into skyscrapers or extremist beheading innocent people and getting enjoyment from it. On a smaller scale they see a problem with extremist shooting innocent children in the back (Russia), a teacher being threatened with 200 lashes for some menial infraction of their belief....or, an Arab woman being raped by 6 men, then being threatened with prison and lashes.

If anything women should be speaking up....but most are silent. I don't see a net gain for any woman as radical Islam. Maybe there is~~I'd love to see some women on here speak up in favor of falling under Islamic law. Please enlighten me.

Of course, the world has a history of turning a blind eye to torture.

(a bunch of loose, not well constructed thoughts...but again, you get the idea)

I have no doubt that their are good Muslims..... We have a mosque in our community and everyone seems peaceful and just want to live their lives.

If I have an issue with he Muslim community in general, it's their failure to speak out against the radicals that give their religion a bad name. There seems to be total silence.

I would also agree with your views regarding Christians (primarily in the past) I do hope!....

But people do speak out.

If you have the time or interest I would recommend a book by Ed Husain called the Islamist. It tells his story about why he joined,and became an Islamic fundamentalist at sixteen, what he saw inside and why he left. It's a real eye opener.

Many of the "Founding Fathers" that wrote up the Constitution, The Bill of Rights,starting back even further with the draft versions; especially Jefferson and his collected essays including his Virginia Papers and ending the Washington's Farewell Address, had all given very clear directions and opinionated guidance to the road maps to follow for the new republic. Sadly, shamefully, their works have been ignored and utterly discarded because greed and the insatiable lust for power always wins out over ideals, honesty and morality.
Reading through the papers of William Pitt, King George the 3rd's Prime minister one sees nothing but confusion and dismay over the colonies decision to revolt, as all major demands were being met by the Crown...even the Crown was beginning to devolve into the long sought after "Constitutional Monarchy". The revolution, basically was not needed is the irony.
The greatest mistake was for the future leaders of the US to side-step, ignore and philosophically lose Washington's Farewell Address and warning ...now , since the beginnings of the 19th century the bills are coming due for all that greed of power culminating in this so called "New World Order" trying to enslave an entire planet of nations and peoples under totally insane ideas such as "either you are with us, or you are against us..."and a bizarre "Gawd Almighty" straight out of that nightmare "Old Testament" followed by "fundamentalists" obviously more mental than anything else. Is it any wonder that America is the most violent, war addicted and paranoid nation on Earth...Good ol' George was right. Find a copy of his Farewell Address...