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Hell would be nothing more than the penalty for wrong done. If you do wrong, does it not make sense that you have to pay? What if we used reincarnation as a model for society? Instead of paying a traffic fine we just sent you back to drivers ed, no matter what the offense. How would we then handle the crime of murder without a trial?

What I meant is 'how do you perceive 'hell'', not what it means if one commits a sin but rather your perception of the punishment criteria?

of course there is value in recognising how to correct wrongs!!!! I dont think there is any dispute on this but I think that the concept of 'hell' precludes the occasioning of 'innocent oversight'

This question is interestingly raised in a book by C.S.Lewis. (hey, I can hear the booing) It's a symbolic look at heaven compaired to hell. He loads up a bus with people from hell, and gave them a tour of heaven. The surprising thing was that they hated it in heaven. They found it boring, and they could not stand being that close to God. And as bad as hell was, it was home to them. It was where they belonged.

Everyday we make tons of decisions. Many of those decisions change who we are. Some decisions make bigger changes than others Mr. Lewis maintained that our decisions are changing us into someone who will be more at home in heaven, or someone who will be more at home im hell. Am I becoming a hellish creature, or a heavenly one?

Hell (and even heaven in a way) would really be cruel if we were not warned about it. Or if it where not explained to us. Being punished ro rewarded without knowing why...

Kinda like reincarnation.

I personally think that we are who we are before we ever make decisions - this is why some people feel a 'pull' in one direction or another.

Mr Lewis himself vacillated on these matters in his own lifetime so to make assumptions, posthumously, is, I think, an erroneous exercise

Heaven and Hell are merely assumptions - assumptions which many of us simply dont buy into

I have to agree with you Mike:

Ok, I haven’t and don’t do these forums, but for some reason am drawn into this one.
First I would rather believe in the Scripture teachings and be wrong than believe there is no hell and end up there.
As far as a perfect God and His forgiveness well that is only a part of it. Without going through all the various teachings and references we have to realize that Jesus is the key to the forgiveness. Without Him God would not find anyone worthy of forgiveness.
Now for heaven; we probably will not make that station stop. It is reserved for the angles of God. However; we will through the grace of God and the price Jesus paid for our sins end up in a place so great it cannot actually be described.
Remember, Jesus said where I go you cannot follow, but I go to prepare a place for you. He did not call it heaven.

Oh well, just an ole hillbilly’s 2 cents worth.

YOU ARE WELOME TRISH....BUT THIS HAS BEEN TAUGHT BY LOAD BUDDHA....I'M ONLY HIS FOLLOWER.SO ALL THE CREDITS MUST BE GONE TO LOAD BUDDAH..

Ahh...

The question about minimal wrongs as they weigh against major ones. This is where it really gets good.

What if there was no difference?

What if you had to pay for them all at once, and there was only one penalty? What if this was messed up from long before you even got here? What if there was no way out?

Would God be just in pronoucing judgement on you this way? Do we deserve any more or less?

And if there were the case, who are we to quesiton God?

Now here is a question from the other side...

Does anyone in heaven think they deserve to be there for any reason of themselves?

I dont know who you are to answer God but I know I beieve in myself and the people I choose as friends - we know we at least have the right to question!!!!!!!!

I reckon most of us arent looking for a 'way out' - rather a 'way in' and accordingly - I will forever 'question' anything which is put in my path and which will have power to affect my life? and the lives of those I love - we are all looking for 'reason' of this existence

Your question from 'heaven' presupposes the unproven concept

normally the worms that are in the faces cannot bear up the tasty foods in a star class hotel. no they eat buriyani or chocolate cakes instead of faces. that's their FATE which they are granted by the ''karma'' that they had done before.

The burning of a church filled with women and children in Kenya....the genocide of 800.000 persons butchered with machetes in Ruwanda, the deaths of three million jews in Europe, the murderous car bombings killing innocent people in Iraq, the assassinations of Bhutto, Sadat, King and the Kennedy's........what makes you think hell is a place to go?
The salvation promised in the form of heaven, might, in reality, simply be parole........

Gallileo

Heaven and hell are man made concepts, conjecture by philosophers and religious panderers. one can't beleive in fact without facts, makes sense?

However in my own belief, knowing that we are beings of energy and that energy cannot be created or destroyed, then what happens to our 'being' our entity, when our bodies are dust? Only conjecture.. still no facts.

Since these philosphers are subject to facts (in the end because any thought process fails without facts) like the rest of us, you have to beleive that their assumptions and postulations are from their own thought processes. Heaven and hell, since the very concept implies being able to 'experience' being there; so you'd need some sort of body to have this experience (seems likely)... when you think about it.

Perhaps we're already there, experiencing both. Its a concept in facts of life, not in conjecture of magic rides through unknown places.

karma shmarma dude ... if karma worked, my nieghbor and his dickhead waief would be shoved so far up your ass right now ... that would be karma ... it aint happening.

I think so many people think that the concept of God is to make up for some weekness, or fill in some gap. In thinking about God I cannot stop thinking about my faith, from which comes my hope for my future, and in which I see the love of God. Without God, would there be hope, faith and love? Without God why would there be a need or desire for hope, faith, and love? God cares about me. Little ol me. Is there no better hope than this?

I have no idea what raavana is talking about with worms and faces, but here is the message I have to deliver:

God created us to be with Him. He created us with the ability to make our own choices. By our choices we decide where we go after we die. If we choose to go against Him, and violate our relationship with Him, then we deserve Him sending us away. And once we have done this wrong ("sin"), there is nothing we can do to undo it. We cannot just take it back or say I am sorry. We still have to face the consequences. "The wages of sin is death," Rm 6:23a

But God cared enough to make a way so I did not have to pay by my own death and an eternity in hell. He paid my debt for me. All I have to do is accept it. "but the gift of God is eternal life in Jesus Christ our Lord." Rm 6:23b And all that goes with it. To get us back to where God wants us... with Him.

It is a message of love that packs more hope than anything I have ever heard. Not of blind speculation, or of a trillion maybes. It answers all questions better than I could have ever have hoped.

And as to the question of proof of heaven or hell:
Without pulling out the many many testimonies of people with their after death experiences, I will say this. Not being able to prove something to satisfy your doubt in no way disproves anything. If you say that you loved your mom after she passes away, then there is no way for you to prove it. Does this prove you did not love her? Of course not.

I have a faith that has not let me down, so I will continue to believe.

Oh, and there is nothing wrong with questioning, if you are really searching for truth. So please keep asking.

YEAH...IT ISN'T HAPPENING...COS MY ASS IS JUST LIKE AN STAR CLASS HOTEL......MAY BE THEY CAN TRY FOR YOUR ONE....THAT IS THE RIGHT PLACE FOR WORMS.....

No it is nonsense

I understand this thinking. I used to think that way when I was young. But then I got to wondering what if there was a hell and you had to believe in teachings not to get there but I was being taught the wrong teachings. There were lots of other religions teaching completely different paths to salvation. They were all variations on the one thing though:

You must be a member of the club - this club, no other one, we are right and everyone else is wrong.


So then I wondered if there was any difference between most of the religions. Finally I stopped worrying about it and stopped believing in threats of hell.

JMO

Regards to you Sailor!

its your karma dude, not mine, dont beleive in it ..


and since you're shovelling so much crap, seems your karma should shove some right back up your patootie ...since you beleive in it

you calling my neighbors worms? thats not very nice, karma gonna get you now!

HEY PAL....WHAT IS IT....? THERE IS A BAD STINK WITH YOUR POST??

IT SEEMS THAT ..KARMA HAS BEGUN IT'S DUTY FOR YOU....

HERE'S A BUCKET OF WATER PAL

when you have some facts maybe I'll beleive you, until then your 'possibilities' of karma have no affect, stinky or otherwise..