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I found something squishy in my hat

I would never want to play trivial pursuit with you dude!

'faith doesn't disprove the contradictions.... in fact it only mires it further in confounded silliness.

I find forgiveness in my fellow man and myself, doesn't require faith or belief in any mumbo jumbo, nor does it take away my own sense of responsibilty for my life and my actions. Faith is dubious crutch for those unable to stand on their own.


In response to:
If not, don't talk about something you don't know about


god is something you don't KNOW about. Something mired in faith and lofty nothingness yet you talk about it as if you know .... as if faith is knowing ... curious... its this kind of knowing and talk about it that keeps the wheels of dogma spinning.' - Bnatural

Well said B!

These arguments being made against what you are saying fall flat on my academic ears with their mass-appeal - and I am a BELIVER in ‘God’: that is to say, an unknown non-explanation behind existence to which man has attributed his own qualities, good AND bad.

Ray; your applauding my efforts puts me in mind of something like having charles manson on Hillary Clintons political ticket KIDDING .. this new you is enlightening dude!




who would support such a notion Ray? A god made by man when most believe god actually made man? paradoxical lamentations.
Closer to the truth for sure Ray, but you'll need a whole bunch of hocus pocus to pull it off because it is against human nature for man to blame himself, he needs a god so he can lay his crap at his feet.

your notion isn't lost on me! excellent defintion of god dude! <-- just love this new emotty ...

This is what we need to move away from...this mode of thinking...

I think most of us can agree at this point that Religion is man-made and it is this negative element (man) which has contributed to a lot/most/all of the ills in the world.. no argument there..

U seem to think though Al that if you remove religion and we are left with just human free will alone that this will sort things out .. if humanity is what corrupts religion and u remove religion what are u left with?

I advocate individual spirituality as the way forward, we need to, as human beings, look OUTSIDE and BEYOND ourselves, this I think is the key to salvation, there is too much fear and focus on our physical needs, not enough of the spiritual which allows us to appreciate our insignificance, and our place in the Universe as a whole... Now whether ones spirituality is sourced from the Sun, the Universe, a packet of crisps or God it doesn't really matter, but if u think that human kind will function just fine without any spiritual dimension or awareness.. I think u r on the wrong track...

key words being , individual and spiritual , taking the responsibility for your own actions. I agree. Being spirtual is a far better choice in my mind as well.


the god I refer to (needing to be removed) is the one most often chosen, not the one you and I agree on, but the one used to fights wars, the one used to justify behavior good or bad, the one used to blame and or ignore others in light of your own problems.. I'm not foolish enough to beleive all crap will be gone, but a great deal of it will, and would there be growing pains, yep. And you're right it is more religion than god, but religion is rooted in god... or is god rooted in religion?

sorry if I didn't make that clear.

thanks for ur response.. havin to chase u around the forums now... ur a busy guy

But Al 'God' isn't the problem.. mankind is.. I think it is necessary to separate the two... I believe in God and I have never subscribed to the bullshit.. and that was from a very early age...(7)

But as I said before 'God' is just a label.. it is that connection with something greater and that spiritual awareness that you get that matters.. I call it 'God' but u can call it Mubawaka if ya want

Mubawaka ..

Orla, if I apply your definition of god I can see where you're coming from and it is an entirely acceptable position.(for me).. it isnt necessarliy attached to any one thing, it has wonder, a desire to discover more, an awe in your ability to sense it and experience it, a connection with your fellow man/woman that is unbreakable its not just one thing, its many things (maybe theyre all tied toegther in the end, who knows; but its spirituality that keeps you looking.(and if more people had this none defined god there would be less hell on earth. JMHO) I am not by any means trying to destroy the wonder, the awe or the sense of connection between us all. its something I revel in.

God though .. their defintion. (isn't called Mubawaka) The one who spends millions on churches, and is held up as a battle cry, that is the most oft chosen god on the planet, the smite thee god, the greedy god, the hell at the end of life god.

If we change this debate to one on 'spirtualism' that god holds no quarry. I think personally there is huge difference between spirituality and this oft chosen god.

Oops forgot to finish my thoughts...


yep you're right its not god, it is man causing the problem with this god toy.. How do you deal with that ... take away his toys!

can't get rid of man
and taking away this toy is just as unlikey

Super ! Jeez you folks are good !!

'I think most of us can agree at this point that Religion is man-made and it is this negative element (man) which has contributed to a lot/most/all of the ills in the world.. no argument there.’ - Aries


No, Aries. All this 'man' stuff is bollocks (pardon me). What we have to realise is that the entire construct of the world has made man the way he is. Man has contributed to a lot/most/all of the ills in the world? Or has the world contributed to a lot/most/all of the ills in MAN?

Aries?

Buddhism, for me, is the one religious way of life that contains the fundamental true principles of the nature of existence. Namely, that existence itself is evil. That existence itself consist in suffering, misery, evil.

And those fools who think that they were created for happiness; that the world is something good and man destroys it, that god lovingly made the world and everything in it to live and be happy . . . That indeed joy outweighs suffering or that they are at any rate balanced, can compare the feelings of an animal eating with the feelings of the animal it is eating . . .

The construct of this very world is evil. That’s why I have always said: I believe only in evil and lesser evil (it also lets me off the hook for not being good).

Life forces you to be/behave a certain way: determinism. The will is a lot less free than people think: it is more like it is given some room to move.

I just want to say thanks to everyone for their replies, especially on my 'On The Problem of Freewill' thread. The academic scope of some of the posts there surprised me.

Also thumbs up to Bnatural! I know I am a narcissistic self-loving asshole (ha ha) but your posts, B, are an asset to any thread!

well that makes you loveable Ray and worthy of human consideration..

They work better in pairs:

When someone says they are Right and you are Wrong they are probably wrong but could be right

When someone says they are Wrong and you are Right they probably don't really mean it.....but they could be right

Good is good

Value is value

Good Value......probably isn't

I understand what you are mentioning about now Ray .. that the samsara is just an eye wash in the form of happy existence but is actually dubious and peril and misery in its own way.

But thats the Buddhist and the Jain belief. As per the Christian belief ( correct me if i am wrong ) there will be utopia where man will live happily ever after ..

So its a contrast in the ideologies expressed here ..

Hi Ray !!!

Sorry i have been here on and off and missed your post on the Laws of Manu.

hmm !! Manusmriti or The laws of Dharma as it is called ... I have a fair idea about the text and what it says but not in depth knowledge.

The mention you make about the cause lying in the scriptures ( i use this term for hindu religon collectively ) is true.

And i do not agree with a lot of things esp the oppression of women that we are the lesser beings or the caste system either.

Ray , to all that i read i apply this simple logic . Be it any religion , there is a mention about man having emerged from a supreme being be it as his image or whichever form ( except Jainism and buddhism to my knowldege where we are a soul wandering in samsara ). In which case , why would he want to torture his own creation. And further there is a woman who is the giver of birth in which case she being the giver of life makes her the superior one not worthy of oppression in any case. Thats how i see it.

Well , in todays times not many men value a woman for the essence of being a woman , a loving nurturing and sensual being while not many women represent that either.


Good to see you around as always !!