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Men must swing into motion and take action,but they can't do it if their emotions are in the way.

I agree wall, important decisions need to come from the head and not the heart - it is just so frustrating when the people we grew up learning to trust come under such suspicions.

In the case of organised religion, we have the 'God is good' ethic but the facts make a mockery of that and in the case of the governments, we have charges of guilt for atrocities such as 911 and lies regarding WMD.

The premise of this thread is to speak out against evil - the apparent evil doers are institutions we have been raised to trust but the more I see, the less I can trust - it is all very confusing

I almost feel like to trust anything would be a gullible act.

I can trust me, I know my intentions are right - seems while we all discuss the conspiracies, they simply get on with more atrocities.

I cant believe what I read about the state of the health service in America and at the same time how much money is spent on war - it isnt too much different here in England either

I dont know who was behind the doc on China that you watched Al but I do know two things

1. The chinese gvmt are trying to paint a very pretty picture of their country in the run up to the olympics there this year and

2. the chinese gvmt are in Darfur, practicing a non interventionist approach while they extract the oil and pay the corrupt regime who have displaced millions from their homes into the degradation of camps where humanity is to say the least, cheapened.

You know what gets me about all this is that there can be reasoning, albeit selfish and incompassionate. Wanting to protect what is you and yours is noble but reaching beyond compassion to do it... no breeze I don't think one can be too melodramatic about what is going on.

I am reminded of the phrase something about, for the betterment of all, and sacrificing the one for the many. I doubt the ideals of those quotes had this in mind though.

On the other hand I am not one to condone what saddam was doing or bin laden, or the many others of this world. They may have been used as puppets but were used if so, because they were already doing evil things. What better place to find your scapegoat.

Good stuff

Finally I agree to something
The lot of them make me

Other things I didn't know .. taking out notepad.. Turning a blind eye so that your own people are satiated.

You know Trish, I didn't say that I liked China's gov't, just that they are on the leading edge of a push to get away from oil, and that I think that next world leading nation will come from this premise.. just a thought. The Japanese are next in line, so they said. It was an economic documentary, on vehicles primarily, not political. The assumptions of where things are headed once oil becomes less prominent are my own. Leading nations don't last forever and usually they are toppled when something else becomes more important.. ie their power is removed.

As I said in earlier posts, about my son installing a windmill and generator and then being beset with taxes, and restrictions for doing so. This pro oil thing is so big, most countries would would tumble into economic despair if oil wasn't as needed as it is now. Too much money and too many lives (livelyhood) hinge on the oil industry.

The shadow of big business for sure... Kind of makes you wonder if a nuke is being considered as an option, how far would they take it?

It really is sickening, since watching that film, I have been unable to get it out of my mind or my spirit for that matter... and that is far worse than just thinking someone is evil, its 'knowing' there's evil afoot.

Very enlightening thread for me.

money talks Al, simple as it was the same when they demonised marijuana, how convenient was that as dupont were beginning to rake it in on synthetic ropes and nylon clothing? same with the way that they denied tobacco was harmfull for so long too - those are just two I can think of off the top of my head - business, money and politics - totally open to corruption

I don't consider myself to have my head in the sand when it comes to the ways that businesses will handcuff us to their products while denying us access to better ones. Long gone are the days of mom and pop stores too. It hasn't been so long really since businesses began the 'competition buy out' and 'market buy up' process. Now we have x-marts, and big box stores, poorly paid employees, and rich directors.
Are we not inextricably tied to this capitalist force as enablers of the design... do we not want join them? ... Use their tools to fight back.?

Sometimes you feel like waving the white flag.

Yep, we are inextricably tied in and no escape for the time being, people simply dont care enough. Even when they do care enough theres nothing can be done except talk. The ever widening gap between rich and poor accelerates at an alarming rate. Ive gone on about this since the early 70's to no avail.

Where I live which is on a road which runs through a valley and through a series of villages. There used to be butchers shops, greengrocers, post offices etc in all of the villages, they have been turned into houses and now all we have are food take aways, charity shops and a co-op in the one village at the bottom of the valley.

In the nearest town, we have 3 major supermarkets and the smaller shops there cant take the competition. The shopping precinct/mall there is like a ghost town with only 4 of the 20 or so shops occupied, these will soon go as there are another 2 superstores being built on what was until recently farmland at the edge of town.

There is a housing shortage with first time buyers unable to get a foot on the ladder and the only jobs available are McJobs sort of thing - at the same time they have raised the stakes on school leaving age. We also have an influx of immigrants who somehow manage to find work and places to live.

All of this in my opinion, perpetuates the underclass at the same time as broadening the gap between rich and poor. I think there is a return to the victorian days of a distinct us and them mentality going on - I cant remember who said it but I read somewhere that capitalism will eventually bite off its own feet - this is I think what we are beginning to see.

If nobody can afford the goods being produced (and this ethic of living on credit cant last too much longer) then it simply makes a mockery of continuing.

I visited a derelict victorian village on the far west coast of Scotland last year. There was only one employer and everybody was expected to work there for life - working life started much younger then too. There were tourist info notices all round the place and apparently, the workers were only allowed to spend their wages in the company store (a bit like walmart giving discounts to employees) and the goods had the exact mark up to just keep them all in debt or very close to it.

The exact same things are happening now only on a much grander scale - has anything really changed

We are boxed in and its becoming increasing difficult for anybody to get off the treadmill. At one time here, you could go and live the simple life on a smallholding somewhere but these places have now all been swallowed up into the machine and are far out of the reaches of anybody but the richest - cottages which 20 yrs back could be bought for a song are now costing half a million pounds and more.

Rather like enabling an alcoholic, ignoring the damage in support of not rocking the boat in our life, hoping they will change. There will be no change until it hits rock bottom, again like alcoholism or any other dependancy. That pie everyone wants a little piece of has pretty much been eaten up by the gluttons, only crumbs are left.

I think you're right though it will be its own undoing. We use the tools they gave us, computers, the internet, some very good instruments that can actually help mankind. And use them to the best of our ability to disseminate information.