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These threads always lead to contraversy which is okay in a mannerly debate,but these threads get bitter and indiviuals attacking each other.When will we learn this is not a place to express feelings on faith,God,religion etc.,until people deal with it in a courteous manner.Maybe then we could learn from one another or try to see their way.Very sad to me

Thanks Gnome, you give more credit to my cause than any of my meagre offerings could

Spiteful? well, yes, Im sure that suits your purpose to think so and Im also sure that in trying to convince others of this opinion you think you are being very clever.

Gnome, I dont expect you to talk any sense to me either, you havent so far...........

Bitter and flower child are contradictions in terms - which illustrates the above point..........

I would like to share with you a response I made earlier on another site to the question of "Where are all the Atheist women" as I dont think your problem is with me per se, but in that fact that i am a woman with the temerity to speak out for my beliefs, in a public forum, your fear is that I am a contaminant - and I guess you are right - I do my best - thankfully, you give me lots of opportunities to have a say.

Oh, yes, I have also been meaning to thank you which I will do before going any further. You have helped immensely in my ongoing quest, before I encountered your own sweet self, I was merely an agnostic, wandering in the wilderness with many unanswered questions im my mind of why I felt the way I did - you have given me every possible opportunity to examine and find answers - I will never forget you Gnome. Today, I am proud to say that with your help, I have passed beyond that 'in the wilderness' stage, on through weak Atheism and to where i stand Today, I have been reborn thanks to you - I am now positively convinced of strong and Positive Atheism - Thank You.

The response I made this morning (on an Atheist site) was also very much helped by my trying to figure out your state of mind - so, for your delectation, and with many heartfelt thanks, here is my response to where all the Atheist women are;

Hi ****

I think its quite simple and staring us in the face why more women arent Atheists. Most of us go through and have to find a way out of, the indoctrination process. This process is designed towards the subservience of women, it is considered highly unseemly to have a different opinion, especially within Church dominated communities as we are the holders of much of the responsibility for the nurturing of children to perpetuate the dogma.

Woman is assigned the role of nurturer from a young age and to defy the precepts of whichever religion in this matter, elicits much disaprobation within said communities. The whole thing, right from the Adam and Eve story, is designed to keep women in their place and has been most effective for quite a long time.

continued;


Generations of women have lived in subservient fear and Atheism is one of the biggest taboos, or rather, fears, of organised religion. If they lose this stranglehold on women then how else are they to continue the process of indoctrination from the cradle onwards? especially since the improvements in the education systems whereby bias is becoming increasingly removed.

The cheif weapon, as I see it, of the fundamentalists, are us women, they keep us cosseted and on pedastals for the most part, and this, in the guise of ‘protection’ and ‘for our own good’ and ‘there there, dont worry your pretty little head about it’ or ‘dont let the neighbours hear you saying that, the priest/pastor/vicar/mullah/rabbi - et al, will throw us out of the congregation’.

Something which has been so painstakingly inbred for centuries isnt going to be overcome overnight. I am heartened to hear that there so many men getting involved because as sure as night follows day, the women will be making their way over - it is the human condition (as opposed to conditioning haha).

Keep up the good fight people and simply - Thank You………………

---

Im sure you detect more than a little sarcasm in this post Gnome but hell, you are accusing me so wholeheartedly I figured the least I could do is to fulfill your perception in return - ever hear the saying about people in glass houses not throwing stones?

Not read most of this thread and i dont intend to.
Just popped in and saw this post.

'bitter flower child'????

Sweet flower, yes.

Child...bitter???

We are talking about trish here are we not?

gnomething...as far as i can see you are the bitter one
round here and that doesnt need any exposing

Thanks Graham

and big thanks to everybody else too, you know who you are....

Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned, forgive, and ye shall be forgiven.
Luke 6:37



When people learn to put the things they preach about into practice, the possibility for enriching, meaningful debate will exist.

Until then, cruel, empty words destroy the cause, reinforcing doubts, pushing away those who might have come willing to learn.

Well said!!!

Trish is a wonderful lady and goes out of her way to try and make everyone around her cheerful and happy. She is the one of the most fascinating and charming friend’s I have had the pleasure to know. Bitter or sour she is not; she takes life in her stride and cares a lot for other individuals opinions and feelings. Flower she is but not in the way you mean it. I have watched you Gnomey!! having a go time and time again. This time I have not wanted to sit back and let you dribble on and ooze nonsense about my dear friend so especially for you I have a little ode….

Generally, a grown gnome is about 8" tall and wears a 2" hat which is why 10" gnomes are often called "real size" gnomes. There is some theory that some of the wandering gnomes have grown larger over the last few decades and attained heights of 13" (15" with hat). Some of the house gnomes and a few of the travelling gnomes have also shrunk and 2" to 6". The jury is still out as to whether this is due to gnomes being forced out of their natural habitat and more tribes being seen, inter-colony marriages changing the gnomes or some other variable.

Size does matter lol
and if you fell into my pond I’d not save you.
Kind regards Esperella

I happen to be a big believer in the divinity of man.

I'm sure those heartfelt feelings will move the gnome greatly, Esperella.

A word about Trish - in my view, one of the deepest and most informed thinkers here. And she's kinda cute, too!

When u get nasty the debate has been lost....because getting personal causes u to lose credibility.... I don't agree with Trish necessarily alot of the time.. but she is entitled to her view...and despite feeling passionately about what she believes in.. I don't recall her having getting personally nasty...

Sorry just thought u have degraded the whole debate!!

Atypical behaviour from everyones least favourite gnome.

I've endured this sort of adversarial attitude myself...pathetic and petulant.

Trish,

I am not sure or how many assumptions there are here and in the next post, but I know there are plenty. Most of these are just wrong. When you use a quote that sounds nice, but shows the person who issued the quote does know what they are talking about, don't you show that you yourself do not know what you are talking about? Just a question.

RELIGION SAYS THAT WE ARE SEPARATED FROM GOD AND THAT WE NEED "THEM" TO MAKE THAT DIVINE CONNECTION - not in my bible.

RELIGION SAYS WE MUST MAKE THEIR CHOICES AND ACT THEIR WAY - not in my bible

THE THEME OF RELIGION IS FEAR AND GUILT - not in my bible


THEREFORE, WE ARE NOT LOVED UNCONDITIONALLY - If your child commits murder, does the fact you love him or her make them any less guilty? If your child deserves to be punished for a crime, does your admitting it make your love any less unconditional? Does unconditional love say you have to deny or ignore reality?

RELIGION COMMANDS US TO DO IT THEIR WAY - not in my bible

RELIGION HAS TAUGHT US TO FEAR THEIR GOD - not in my bible (not in the implied context)

RELIGION HAS TAUGHT US TO FEEL ASHAMED, GUILTY AND DIRTY ABOUT OUR SEXUALITY - my bible teaches me to celebrate the incredible beauty of sex, not reduce it to just something you do with anyone you want or are too drunk to object to. Sex was something to be vastly important and too wonderful for words between two people that have made life changing commitments to each other. Not something you do just because it feels good. We treat sex as no more special than getting high or a really good bowel movement.

"SUBDUE THE EARTH" - as in make it suitable to live? like mow the lawn, or plant a garden?

RELIGION SAYS HE IS IN HEAVEN AND THAT "THEY" ARE THE ONLY INTERMEDIARIES FOR US - not in my bible

RELIGION SAYS WE ARE BORN WITH SIN - not in my bible (not in the implied context)

Last one...
RELIGION HAS CAUSED MORE WARS AND MORE KILLING THAN ANY OTHER REASON - not even close. The love of money is the cause of every war ever fought. If you still think that there have been pure religious wars, you need to research a little more. Trace the money (who financed the war and who got rich off the war), and you will find out the real reason for the war.

Been away for awhile and don't have much time for forums these days, but I wanted to respond to something real quick.

The Fountainhead is one of my all-time favorite novels, D!

Ouch! This is a good rebuke wanderinggnome. I don't agree with Trish, and sometimes I don't like her very much. But she is great at what she does, and I have learned a lot through my friendship with her. She has pushed many of my buttons before, so I know what your feeling, but she has my love and respect. We just can't let this get the best of us. I hope you don't take this the wrong way. I am in YOUR corner.

Keep the faith my friend!

MikeHD-

RELIGION and the Bible are TWO different things. The Bible is supposedly the building block of many religions. It's NOT a religion in and f itself.

RELIGION is the banner flown over the "money wars" you describe. You can't deny that.

Following the Bible, and following RELIGION are two different things.

When you can become upset by challenges to your beliefs it is likely that your beliefs are unstable

When winds shake a building, it is not the wind that is the cause of instability, it is the building's foundation that is suspect. Foundation will survive winds.

As for bible :groan:... well we've been through this any number of times. The bible is a rehash (an edited one at that, edited by those council of nicea people wanting to rule and others after them, even King gregory who frigged the calendar with his gregorian plan) It, the bible (has missing texts, added texts, edited texts, translated texts) is a rehash of sumerian writings (that by the way coincide with other ancient texts in mayan history, and others, all referring to planetary gods, not smiting governing gods.) Even indians in america had such an amazing way of interpreting the world. The difference in those texts are superficial in names for gods and saviors. Same events, same information, different names. (coincidence, I don't think so)

I won't defame the bible for its scientific and astronomical knowledge (and more); but I certainly would decry it's intentions (as well as its hocus pocus control tactics)as brought to bare on the populace throughout time. Totally stealing man of any sense of divinty and placing that in the hands of egoists and controlists, is what the edited texts have done.... they have done this since centuries before the turn of BC to AD

Ask yourself why your building (your beliefs) feels so shakey... why the planet feels so shakey... the problem with the divinity of man is within man, he will find no enemy but himself and what he allows in his beliefs.

JMHO

Point taken

Nicea means little. Scrolls are available dating hundreds of years before said council met up for tea and duplicity...the bible can be read and 'understood' as it was intended, without Nicea's meddling.

As for it's 'control' tactics, well, what we call control can also be termed guidelines. And unltimately, nobody has to follow them.

Because, and this needs to be understood, the bible oppressed nobody...people did. In the same was the koran is used to oppress, and countless other texts...anything can be used by anybody to manipulate.

At the end of the day, it's people shooting eachother in the backside...regularly and without shame. To focus ones disdain on anything else would be to miss the point entirely.

But, I guess it gives bitter, spiritually aimless sorts something to gnash their teeth on.

see good debate tactics.......