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.. I knew you would point this out to me..

Can I put it to u this way.... the source of electricity is a generator... the electricity is not the generator(although it is part of it and created by it).. While we share in Gods spirit and energy and he is the source of this.. we are not him.... my flatmate believes that we are God also.. or more that we are co-creators.. I still have to give this much thought... but somehow it just doesn't fit for me.. I think he gave us free will and in a sense we create our destiny, this is a special gift bestowed on us which does not appear present in other members of the animal kingdom.. and I think free will is central to understanding God (or the Universal plan) and unlocking the mystery of why we are all here..., but I think when it comes to the universe and all that is in it.. including us.. I believe that he is the source..

much like trish's sentiment, so lets eschew the religion aspects and delve into just the god presence.

do we need to believe, or to accept, or just be?

Its inextricably linked for most folk though Al - a manmade concept so to speak and imbued with all of Mankinds greatest ideals

A figment of many peoples imagination.

To try and understand God/Allah is beyond our own ken. We can only understand the human mind, examine nature, but we can know God only through His creation.
Instead of knowing Him in terms of images and shapes, we know Him in terms of names, attributes.

The corruption of love comes in its expression. The beauty of the heart is disfigured when words try to describe it.

Oh, AL, I would love to believe, I truly would - but all I see is a world full of greed and manipulations of one form or another sadly

I have no problems believing in the sunrise or the beauty of birth or the electricity of love and emotion - I call these things Essence though.........

youre paychic! then you could have saved me the trouble of asking



Ok, I gotcha. So here's something to think about, as I do ... you need energy to make a generator, yes?... ya I know its a chicken and the egg conundrum; but ..

I also think, as opposed to believe, that plants and animals have some freewill as well, though it would seem some of their actions are 'conditioned' and so we too behave in conditioned ways. Does a tree turn its leaves to the sun because it wants to or because it knows where life is?

I mean sometimes I wonder if they are not more evolved than us, in a sense that they accept and naturally turn to the life giving force without question, while we MISS that factor ... making sense?

It is not contradictory. We all share the same energy, so in a sense there is some truth to it. A drop to the sea we are...make any sense? It's a Hindu saying that makes sense and should answer your question. We are the drop of water in the air, and the Source is the sea.....

Nice

you right brained ambiguity you .. let them link if they will ... do we need religion to understand/sense god or the concept of?

one thing about religion is the congregational aspect, bringing together greater numbers of people for one common goal,(in prayer or whatever) which I find helpful in attaining goals per say, but not when organizers misuse the intent of communal gathering.

as is life? IMHO we are what we figmentalize ( a new word )

good points, though my only contention would be that disfigurement is also beauty.

I think we can also understand beyond the mind when we learn to quiet that mind...to understand that we are more the spirit than we are the mind. The spirit lives on while the mind does not? people tend to put the mind well before the spirit and this IMHO ignores who we truely are, thus making it more difficult to be in touch with any god presence

For sure without a doubt.

So which option did you vote for BnaturAl?....other?

Ha.. and I knew you would make these points also ...

For the purpose of the illustration of the point you have to assume that the Generator just exists!! ok?

As to the behaviour of plants and the animal kingdom.. perhaps becoming more like them is our aim.. perhaps like the prodical son.. we have to go out there.. make our mistakes.. think we know it all and ultimately come to the realisation that there are no magic complex formula or answer and that the purpose of our existence is to do just that.. exist.. be.. to understand the world provides us with all that we need.. enough for everyone... nature doesn't question its existence, it just lives in harmony with the rest of nature.. taking what is necessary..no more..

I would compare the evolution of the human soul as having come through three stages.. childhood.. around the time of Moses etc... where we just simply didn't know better.... adolecence... where we think we know it all!! (currently in the final stages of this phase) and adulthood which would be a phase of enlightened collective consciousness and a better understanding of why we are all here...

It may take the complete destruction of our present facade to make us realise this.. but I believe it will happen.. this could be what is meant by the end of the world JMV..



p.s... OMG.. I find it sooo hard to debate with u.. u r just too damn good at this .. ur points are always so logical..

We are not human beings on a spiritual journey. We are spiritual beings on a human journey. The earthly ways inthis astral plane could be one of the toughest experiences in our convoluted universe.

I like hindu aspects and budhist as well, but again your affirmation is the same as we are all ONE...co-creators? is not the sea many drops of the same water?

I get that we are the drop, singular as in you and I, her, he etc ... but as one we are the source? Lets change contradictory to 'paradoxical'

We are part of the source, but not the truth. We are connected to the god source, but we are not at the source level.

If you or I knew the complete truth, we would not have a vibration that would allow us to be in this astral plane and discussing this topic in this forum.

you know what they say about assume



my god,I don't think I can debate this because of the possibility factor. I mean, there is a certain wisdom in accepting as all of life does, except us. We are the only beings (that we know of) who tend to run against the flow of life?



and yet you persist.. debate needs two sides (at least) and this one, between you and I, is one of logic versus concept, though I tend to grasp your conceptual slices and then try to put them in linear adjuncts, I always find myself in some paradoxical whimsy. Debate is healthy and being uncomfortable in it at times only means our thoughts need re-addressing, re-configuring; don't you not think? east meets west, left meets right?

With the choice of 'us, the universe, life force, etc.. I would dismiss the 'us' out of the equation; 'us' is a mere product of this Life Energy, Force. So far from the tons of ideas presented by all types of 'religious' and philosophical works through the thousands of years, many are mere repetitions of previous writers expounding on what God is or is not; of what we humans are to all other life forms, to the Universe and ultimately to this 'Life Force' that ultimately we call God.
There has been no original exclusive idea as to what this God is, basically. Ideas from the ridiculous to the sublime from peoples, cultures , civilizations all over our planet, both ancient and modern have simply decided and defined this Life Force over time for their own particular time and place, subject to any changes by newer generations or by other s from the outside of their origins. There never has been a unanimous view or opinion since the fall of ancient Sumer. Humankind has been battling not only itself since, but battling for and against a planetary consensus as to what this Life Force God is and of our relationship with it is. Basically we as all humans, have been stranded without consensus, direction or any sort of coherent effort to answer, let alone have the will to accept one if one could be worked out. Too many chiefs with not enough Indians dilemma.
For myself, after reading the books of the French mystic/ Jesuit Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, on the very phenomenon of Mankind and those of Fritjof Capra on the interconnections of all life on this planet, basically saying that we humans are only concerned with only a tiny part of some larger whole; yet every being has as much right to its life just as we do; that 'we' are not the center of the universe. There are millions of planets we don't know about yet, worlds we can perhaps hope to visit or communicate with some day, and, this Earth and the beings on it aren't at the center; rather, that we, the galaxy and all our universes themselves are just as tiny parts of the wisdom, beauty and everlasting mystery of 'God'.
All through the Time that people have tried to define this Force, the has, been one very interesting and new concept added by the historian. writer, mystic, etc. author Maurice M. Cotterell in that he has detected a cyclic appearance of 'manifestations' of this force into human forms through out the ages to each civilizations, all basically bringing the same 'gifts' to humans, be they Maya or Hindu and all the others. He certainly has noticed something of profound importance and explains it all rather well in his book SUPERGODS. Add this to those mentioned above and to many, many others, we have indeed a rational and mystical set of patterns emerging as to what this Life Force is, which also then reveals what it is not. "Fascinating!" as Spock would say...

Actually, I come out pretty close to 50/50 on those tests Al

The congregational aspect, in my opinion, falls down and will continue to do so till they all find the same hymn sheets - or get some new ones written and stop arguing about it all

We have one world and a common ancestry - shared within that ancestry are the beauteous experiences of this bounteous universe - I find it such a shame that theism spreads the words of disunity, and worse - that people are taken in by it still.

Its getting late and this earth is being sadly misused, the waters are full of poisons and natural resources are being wasted - but all pay obiesance to the fellah in the sky or some historical precepts - we need to be more aware of NOW..........

Yep, there is comfort for many in the congregational aspect, this I would never deny or denigrate - but is it really the real issue.........