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"When I was back there in seminary school, there was a person there who put forth the proposition that you can petition the Lord with prayer... You cannot petition the Lord with prayer!."

-- Jim Morrison

It's common to offer prayers for those in need (especially on CS), but I wonder how many have considered the deeper logical implications of this practice.

For one, do you believe than anyone's life or welfare should be at the mercy of how many prayers were offered on their behalf? Should their welfare be a function of some kind of popular vote (if you don't offer a prayer for someone, is it more likely that God will allow them to die or their suffering to continue?).

Also, do you have the right to materially affect someone else's life through your thoughts? For example, if you pray for a particular event - one that presumably favors your values - if it were granted wouldn't that involve imposing your will on others? Sometimes that might be justifiable, but surely not just because it's something you want to see happen?

Does it make sense to believe that an infinitely intelligent being benefits from your entreaties and/or counsel? Would it not already know the correct course of action?

Jeff

::whistles and tip toes back out::::

Jeez...thanks a lot, Claire. I was counting on you to have my back in this discussion!

In a word NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Good question. Implications are far reaching. The ability to influence seemingly has no boundaries save the one's we place for ourselves. The same question came up for me once, knowing how we are tied in collective thought.

I think we are unable to 'think' through another's boundaries though. I person will only accept those thoughts or thoughts from people that they want?

Just guessing of course but I wonder how this affects my constant fantasies with Cindi Lauper .... is she screaming ( I mean singing)because of me?

But Hugsy...to what question are you replying to?

Well at the risk of being fried in the fires of CS hell... haha

I can't really answer much to any of it.. Being a non believer (in ANY kind of god).. I see prayers as no more than people's 'Thoughts' .. Stuff that goes on in their head.. good wishes.. good thoughts.. but nothing that can influence anything physical.. in any way shape of form.

So for me, personally.. I can't see them influencing anything.. good or bad.

I do respect other people's views on prayers.. and praying.

and I expect people to respect my views too.

Soo.. don't attack me for my views.. as I don't attack you for YOURS.

Coz I'm not in the mood for a bloody argument!

Oh... or maybe I am..

Thats everyone praying for my legs to fall off tonight then..

I don't know was just trying to argue....



I'll answer right then:....


The power of prayer...well I suppose since it works...It's more than lkely to foster positivity and postive energy toward said person....Honestly I don't think prayers will effect something that is already set to happen or that prayer can alter any persons free-will...so as afar as havng a right to alter a persons life...I don't think we are neccesarliy altering anything that is not meant to already happen!!!!!!!!

I think this is likely all down to chance. Assuming there is a god, what he wants would be paramount? If not, then there's the desire of the one being prayed for to account for. Does it matter to them that people have gathered on their behalf?


Do we have those rights in reality, separate from thoughts? We impose our will on others daily, without thought for others, life is basically a selfish event, even wanting another to be well is self derived, though I agfain I dont think we can impose beyond the boundaries of anothers will, in thoughts or reality.



This would be true assuming there is an infinitely intelligent being. Again we have self to consider and the self wants things to happen.

Helooooo

Damn...I don't want to get back in our "everyone's opinion is equally valid" argument with you again, Claire...

As we've discussed before, I certainly respect individuals (I love and respect plenty of people who pray [not "prey," Sexy...I'm not a carnivorous kind of philosopher!), but that doesn't mean I respect anyone's ideas as equally valid.

The question is: Does prayer to an omniscient being to intervene on our behalf (sometimes against the will of other people) make any logical sense?

hahaha


and no.. not to me.

Thats why I stay out of the religion threads.. it's not something that interests me.

Hmmm...sounds like you're suggesting a form of determinism, HK? I happen to think determinism (at least my conception of it) is correct, so we may not have much to argue about.

Yeah, I've noticed that you usually don't get involved, sweetie, and I'm glad you're getting involved in this one, either, because it might get us both in a bit of a "sticky wicket" (whatever the hell that means)

When my youngest son was born prematurely, it was not likely that he would survive.

And I prayed.

I have no idea why, because I'm not especially religious.

And he survived; I got my wish.

And nineteen years later, I am am his full time caretaker'

From 6 am until 8 pm. 365 days a year....

He is mentally retarded, can't walk, can't talk and I love him as much as I love my other two children, who are grown and have lives of their own.

I got what I wanted. It did not favor me, nor did it make my life easier.

Some things happen for a reason that is never revealed.

JMO

You are a great mum!


and on the flip side of that story..

I prayed for 10yrs that my husbands arms would fall off.. and his mouth would seal shut..

But it never happened..

ten years!

I threw a penny down a well...

Actually, it was a storm drain

Wishing that my third husband would vanish.

He committed suicide a few months later.



Perhaps I have missed my calling in life


PS I did mourn him since he did care about his son...my youngest who of all people really needed a father...so many sad stories