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After being assailed any number of times for lack of belief I thought I'd profer proof, my proof of course. The impressions are yours.

First things first,

Disclaimer:

In no way do my thoughts and offerings of proof, support or extol the bible. In no way would I support or further perpetrate the heinous acts that this, or any other books have done, and purported themselves to be the word of god. Intelligence, like god, is beyond words, despite the fact that it requires words in definition and description.
I completely unequivocally DISassociate myself from:

-any book that has been the single greatest single cause for death, murder and forced compliance and the justifed slaughter of mankind.

-a book, designed, edited and published as the spearhead of the earliest "new world order" known to man;

-a book that offers a cover to preditors, pediphelia, sex fiends and psycho-manipulators, though forgiveness is the order of the day;

-a book that justifies itself, promotes alienation, separation, segregation, stoning and the self interest of power mongers, and confusing judgement, all things that persist unbelievably to this day.

-any religion who's purpose is the engratiation of itself and it's seeking of power in numbers.

I do not support these books. In my thinking, that is tantamount to being an accomplice to the white washing of the acts carried out on its behalf, past, present and future. An accomplice to crimes on humanity just cannot be in my lexicon nor in the perception of my belief. No other book and its tenants have been as forceabley imposed on mankind at the point of a sword, as these religious books have. (surely no god intends this, free will expects it's opposite, if I am to believe in free will) It's tenants are untenable. I refuse to post this as a religious thread, for the same reasons.

Note: This thread is not a discussion on the bible. I am just being clear about my associations.

_____ _____

In order to prove what is intangeable, one uses the tools used to prove the intangeable.

Experience.

God exists, as does joy, a cold, our spirit (though that has at least some quantifiable properties in reality). God exists as a thought, a musing, a concept and a reality at the same time, a connection to all that is. God is genderless like a rainbow, a cloud, an impression in and of life. God doesn't require capital letters unless grammar demands it. God is not a being, god is being.

Analogy: If you have never had a cold, you do not know this experience and are not likely to know a cold. What you can observe however are it's symptoms, manifested in the person who is experiencing it, in the one who knows the cold. The more the virus takes hold, the greater its symptoms, the more the experience is known. The anology works with joy, happiness, sadness, indeed any and all experience.

Oh; but, the virus is real you say, its a quantifiable, measureable and observable under a microscope. These are merely the symptoms of being able to observe. Being able to observe is the experience here. You cannot know without the experience. You know god exists, You just haven't had the experience yet..

What are the symptoms of god? Life! that omnipresent energy in observation.

dont argue with me ...

What proof of God, symptoms of which God even? All gods have simply been a tool of various societies which they used for social control.......

Hold natures wondrousness in highest esteem by all means but it will not help you to either call it god nor to pray to it........... trish123 08

below is copied in its entirety from ;http://www.godisimaginary.com/i28.htm
Notice how many gods you reject

There are literally thousands of religions being practiced today. Here are 20 of the most popular, along with an estimate of the number of followers:

Christianity: 2.1 billion
Islam: 1.3 billion
Hinduism: 900 million
Chinese traditional religion: 394 million
Buddhism: 376 million
African Traditional & Diasporic: 100 million
Sikhism: 23 million
Juche: 19 million
Spiritism: 15 million
Judaism: 14 million
Baha'i: 7 million
Jainism: 4.2 million
Shinto: 4 million
Cao Dai: 4 million
Zoroastrianism: 2.6 million
Tenrikyo: 2 million
Neo-Paganism: 1 million
Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand
Rastafarianism: 600 thousand
Scientology: 500 thousand
[Source: Encyclopedia Britannica]

If you believe in God, you have chosen to reject Allah, Vishnu, Budda, Waheguru and all of the thousands of other gods that other people worship today. It is quite likely that you rejected these other gods without ever looking into their religions or reading their books. You simply absorbed the dominant faith in your home or in the society you grew up in.

In the same way, the followers of all these other religions have chosen to reject God. You think their gods are imaginary, and they think your God is imaginary.

In other words, each religious person on earth today arbitrarily rejects thousands of gods as imaginary, many of which he/she has never even heard of, and arbitrarily chooses to "believe" in one of them.

The following quote from Stephen F. Roberts sums up the situation very nicely:

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."


A rational person rejects all human gods equally, because all of them are equally imaginary. How do we know that they are imaginary? Simply imagine that one of them is real. If one of these thousands of gods were actually real, then his followers would be experiencing real, undeniable benefits. These benefits would be obvious to everyone. The followers of a true god would pray, and their prayers would be answered. The followers of a true god would therefore live longer, have fewer diseases, have lots more money, etc. There would be thousands of statistical markers surrounding the followers of a true god.

Everyone would notice all of these benefits, and they would gravitate toward this true god. And thus, over the course of several centuries, everyone would be aligned on the one true god. All the other false gods would have fallen by the wayside long ago, and there would be only one religion under the one true god.

When we look at our world today, we see nothing like that. There are two billion Christians AND there are more than one billion Muslims, and their religions are mutually exclusive. There are thousands of other religions. When you analyse any of them, they all show a remarkable similarity -- there is zero evidence that any of these gods exist. That is how we know that they are all imaginary.

indeed but gods of power, created by man for the purpose of their own power. This is not a need of god but of man.



I give it no name, only as communicative reference of that wonder. As for praying, meditating, well, I find comfort in that gap of every day life. I need not point in any direction, at any single being, that is very defintion of omnipresent. Esteem ... awe perhaps.



I agree, appauling representations of what is termed god. As I have said before, no righteous god, no intelligent god would conspire nor inspire to create anything that would be divisive, or expose the 'wonder of life' as you call it, to the manipulative self interests of power mongers. Religions being just one of those.



A rather long and rather unnecessary diatribe he has there But, there is only one benefit of god. life. The only real fight is from within.

The fact that we gravitate to the fight of gods, is a function of conditioning, (even memes) something started long by powerful people wanting to unify their states and empires ... Again the responsibilty and archetect is man here. A symptom of life, in this case greed, power, control. The symptoms of life are not always good. Religions push and enforce their dogma. Yes its true that some people willingly choose their tools, but as I have mentioned before marketing rules the day. The bible became most known because its archetects pushed it, enforced it at point of sword in early days.

Just ask Bill Gates how well this works! They call it advertising now. Envelope the market, deny all others a presence and no one will have options, let alone free will. In a society that looks to leaders for those options and allows them to create the market place, well, they deserve to be subjects of the leaders, rather than creators of their own life.

The secret is to forget those illusory options and just be

resistance is futile..

To call the basic urge to survive 'God' is to cheapen that instinct and to colour the wonders of nature with the opressiveness of religion - God is a religious construct

nature is the thing where we find beauty


You may well see Roberts words as diatribe but to me, it holds one of the best quotes in this matter that I have ever come across;

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

My belief is that they are the same God but expressed differently. Same source but cloaked with a different mask of interpretation.....

I think the problem in these discussions is the assumption of how one perceives the God Source.

I have created my own spirituality free of society's dogmas. I can understand though that you are talking about the norm.

BN, I will add more later, I am busy with my kids and they need to get to bed soon.....

Seems to me a lot of what your talking about is organized religion, be it catholic, protestant, muslim, ect.. Man seems to have a compulsion to make rules and impose them on everyone else. But God, or a god, or a supreme being, whatever you want to call it, I think is out there. How else do you explain all of nature, man, the galaxy, everything. The way I see it, there had to be a beginning, somewhere somehow. Unless you think matter just kind of popped up all on its own.

OK, so is there proof that there is NO God? Cos it seems that although not many have seen or met Him, EVERYONE knows about him. He sure must be the most popular guy in the Universe - and, I would guess, probably just too busy to drive around in a Maserati and make appearances before the ignorant public...

That's what happens when people perpetuate myths or facts for centuries. Some believe it all to be true, whether or not there is any basis in fact for any of it.

Repetition is a fantastic form of brainwashing.

I have no probs with dismissing religious gods, and mythical gods. The sheer numbers of adversarial beliefs is mind numbing.

more factual "I think" ... man is god construct. religion is man construct.


The combination is inclusive to religions for sure; but not to god, it defies inclusion of any sort. The combination is neither required nor intended except through man's constructs. A plant is a plant, but becomes a salad in combination with others. Man has always wanted to make these whacky salads. That deosn't negate the singular identity of the plant or of god.

Me too SF, I have been looking into many religions and ways of life for many years now and my own form of spirituality has been developed simply by recoginsing the things that I dont like like about the standard accepted norms - of course, my views are also coloured by some pretty 'far out' experiences from my youthful experimentalism phase too............. they took me into looking into some of the more ancient concepts, into the place where I was, as are we all, part of the one-ness and the source....

Source is a good term but I simply think the term 'God' implies devisiveness................ whatever works for you is great


Have fun, I have to go - a visitor has arrived

Your assumption concludes there is being out there .. and what about his god? and that god's god? infintiy is like that.... there can be no end to infinty unless you stray from the defintion.

Matter on its own is highly improbable as it requires energy(life) to become visible in the sense of observation to in fact say that it is matter. Without an observer there would be nothing and even that can be observed ...

you want a maserati? they are soooo cool!

anyway . .the god you speak of is a relgious defined god, a smiter, a governing, miracle tossing god.

please see previous note related to infinity. By defintion, a god such as religions define and want you to buy into, will have a god of their own and that god one his own and that god one of his own, etc etc etc. One can't reason away infinity and expect it as well, soley to buy into that kind of god. Well you can but it makes no sense.

energy/life is but one thing, yet it is all things, when you think about it, and that makes sense because it requires no such rules that conflict with infinity. It always was has been and will be ..life being life.


hope you get that mazerati, and the passenger seat is empty, so you can call me and take me for one hell of a ride!

indeed.

You might want to have a look into 'memes' kid. They are selfishly self replicating ideas essentially.

try ted.com , its fascinating stuff, how brain washing and presentation and the most visible thing around becomes the dominant idea or accepted construct.

That is the unfortunate. Something that has such awesome properties being dragged through the mud for centuries. How can one get a connotation of god that isn't bad, muddied or beyond recogniton. Sad. But, I can! because I know what they've done with that word.

I am talking about things far from the norm my good man. The norm is a godhead, a card carrying member of the I'll smite you if you dont follow club. This connotation is repulsive to me and ruins for me, what is in effect the awesome wonder of life and the genuine existence of being free and or free being.

The norm is a culture, a warring devisive culture, fighting over rights to claim god as their religion's own. Ownership is singular and all encompassing at once. Its personal yet mutually shared by all at once.

There is no god seeking rule, because if there is one and only one, then that god would already undeniably have such rule, its farkin god! only religions and man do that. In fact religions are generally born of the doubt in people and the desire rule over people, places and things. No god would have such doubt, let alone some childish need to prove that rulership. you want to give god or the source credit as wise, it had better make sense, right?

I understand where youre going, generally have, since I started reading your posts, though sometimes the kite strings pull out of my hands

The source is acceptable as word, but for me its connotations lie with electronics, Radio Shack, The Source! Funny how connotations affect how one feels about words!

Trish:

According to the Pope, Islam is now the largest religion in the world. This was stated last month, I believe

OH god.........here we go again........

why does there have to be a beginning and how important is this concept - we are now - and we are beginning to see how religions have used the populace for such a long time - lets begin from here and look at the evidence before our eyes - historical beginnings are all hearsay and the stuff that people have argued about for centuries makes little sense in the face of current evidence.

Education was witheld from the general populace till comparatively recently - who witheld it and why - lets start from a place of questions that we 'can' answer.

Beginning is yet another concept that I feel has been besmirched by organised religion - we do not need to be guided by the myth of a creator - I dont reckon that mankind is inherrently good but I do reckon that mythology is for storybooks and not for real life......

I read something yesterday Ship about Islam being set to overtake Christianity in England within the next few years - yeah, right, more propaganda from the heck knows where - Tony Blair is all set for being the European minister of God too, he has actually been earmarked for somesuch absurd position - wonder if thats why he converted to catholicism............. I reckon he spent too long talking to Bushybaby....