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It is possible that they where made saints before the current process was thought up

I think it ironic, that you would not hold yourself to the same standard of proof as you expect to hold catholics AND were it not for the Roman Catholic Church, it's unlikey this book would have any appeal in history, let alone faith.

They, like most relgious zealots, justify as you do, without proofs and treat any challenge to faith as some "false profit"...based solely on words, editted for consumption by the very church who's followers you bring into question now.

Indeed you speak the truth sir.

To paraphrase the Song:

Brain,Brain Go Away,Come Back Again On Another Day!

Hi B... my assertions are based on the Bible and the Bible alone, Catholic dogma is based on alleged writings and studies based on materials which nobody has access to... the powers that be, made up their own doctrine, a doctrine which was not based on any publicly available document... the whole Mary thing was fired up by these alleged 'visitations' which the Catholic held out to be genuine.. these were never prophesised in the Bible.. as Jesus and John the Babtist and many other key events in history, including events which are said to happen to the future..

I base my beliefs on the Bible... which I assume to be the word of God (now whether you accept it as the word of God is another argument) but at least it is based on something...

The Catholic church.. from their shiney gold and jewel encrusted pulpit have unilaterally rewritten God's law so to speak, and they require their congregation to conform to rules and practices which have no scriptural basis.. I chose to accept the Bible and its contents and I chose to worship in the way that it (and only it subscribes)now while I do not know the mysteries of the universe, in the same way that no other living being does, at least I chose to base the practice of my faith on the Book which represents the foundation of this faith... phew!!

With the Catholic church clearly anything is possible including re-inventing Christianity in accordance with its own agenda and basing it (among other things)on some dubious 'visitations'.. and alleged documents and studies which have never been made publically available.. so yeah.. anything is possible...

thanks O, but I do believe you missed my point. The bible only survived in in whole or in part because of an oppressive empire. That created the church to further that empire. People wanted gods, because gods are higher beings. Rulers had no ability to rule when people treated them as lessor beings. The Empire could not have this and still maintain order among its populace, so they created the papacy (their supreme connection to god) edited and proclaimed the bible as the book of the one and only god. It has been rewritten and again edited since, by others, who knew the only way to power was to steal this god and hence the connection to that god. King whatshisname. What does a king need with a god in manner of rule? He doesn't. God is to be shared , not owned by protestants or cathoilcs or christians. No book will ever change this shared nature of god, but it will change those who think they own god by way of wisdom, jesus or anyone else.

I dont dispute the good things about the bible, I do take issue with its contradictions and instructions though. The problem I have with holding this book as a connection to god, is that you , me and everyone can achieve the very same things, have the very same feelings and senses that are attributed to god, without having touched a bible.

....bravo...well said...........

The Bible critisises the very type of behaviour you mention, and it criticises hypocricy, religious zealousness (Pharisees e.g.) and it emphasises that there is one God for all, and believe it or not it mentions a church without walls, churches were never meant to be the institutional things that they became.. church was intended to be a collection of people with a common desire to worship God, the simple message of the new testament is love God, love your neighbour and keep the commandments.. Jesus' role was to lead us.. mainly by example..and to show us the way...so the Bible, if it was intended to manipulate the masses for the benefit of the powerful few, it didn't succeed.. what the powerful few did manage to succeed in doing however was re-inventing God's law, confusing people and hiding and misinterpreting the truth for them...

I agree with you on many things though B.. I agree that there is one God for all.. I just wish Religions would keep there noses out of his business and let the rest of us find the truth.. as to our sole capacity to achieve what is expected of us in God's eyes?... we have made a pretty awful job of it so far haven't we? with or without religion.. we are led mainly by selfish interest, and where we are confused, or have little or no spiritual base.. the chances of us getting it right or greatly reduced.. people should aim to have a personal relationship with God and keep the rules simple...

Anyway B... you are closer to the truth than many others..

Just looking up some of the Marian prophesies there... none (so far) have come true.. if indeed these were genuine visitations of some sort, who ever it was, was not of God.. God doesn't get it wrong, prophets are merely messengers of God...

I'll take that as a compliment councillor, though I am unsure as to how you would know I am so close...

The bible is selfish interest itself Orla. A little history might avail you of that knowledge. And that is what led my question of your seeking truth as regards catholocism. The bible is essentially theirs by decree of the Romans, carried since then by the papacy, abrogated from pagans and altered to suit Empiristic design. The short description for such an act is theft and propoganda. Again the bible would be little more than just an old book, were it not for the Romans and the RC Church. it might well be pagan rituals we'd be having faith in, had it not been for them, just as we might all be white supremists at hitler's hand were it not for GB and Canada and later the US

There are many books that contain a great deal of life's wisdom Orla, none of which are any less deserving of praise in being wise, nor should they be raised above others. I am unsure why this book holds such appeal to you as 'god's word, but as you say, another issue. I would hope that where ever it leads you, that it is toward the real truth of life.

We both have a belief and just like proof, they both exist in a single moment of time. Both are as real as it gets for us.... though I find belief without proof somewhat disconcerting, I can still understand the reality that belief creates without proof. Belief and proof are uncanny partners.

Maybe your quest in mary, is one of these? Is it proof you need or proof you wish to spread? Belief you need or wish to spread?

Ok.. even if we were to strip it all down to its basics.. assuming God exists(which of course I believe he does, but just for arguments sake) then it is him who should be prayed to and worshipped.. not some woman (albeit a very important one).. I find the idea goes against even the most basic non-denominational notion of God.. even if 'God' is simply a vast energy force which connects all living things.. I still don't see why people should be praying to this Woman.. now my beliefs are abundantly clear, I don't expect everyone to share them, but no matter what your beliefs are... I still don't see why people should be praying to someone, who is only linked to God by the fact that she was a chosen vessel to give birth to Jesus... there are two ways you can look at this.. 1. Jesus wasn't the son of God.. in which case she definitely has no stance 2. Jesus is the son of God, born out of the Holy Spirit (virgin birth) in which case she is just a vessel.. a special lady annointed with the divine task of bringing the son of God into the world.... she was blessed and important sure.. but to be praying to her.. anyway.. kinda fed up with all of this now.. onwards and upwards as they say B

you really are stepping outside your box lately

Ok so I'm with you on the gender issue, though I doubt gender really has anything to do with god save the principle of balance, (male/female) but that's more my beliefs about energy.

Pagan beleif leans toward the goddess. Spirituality was born by women long ago Orla, long before even teh Sumerains began to give us writings about saviors and christ-like figures, comlete with gods.

The Mary issue and this is just my opinion, was a hand out to pagans, whose beliefs tended toward the goddess principles. The goddess is more connected to nature and isn't so much about being female as she is the ""embodiment"" of 'mother nature'

Many christian values have been taken from pagan rituals and most are still evident today. Seasonal changes, xmas, all those are based in pagan spiritualism. Empires ruled by men, had to think of something,.. something that would also unite women in their plan, to disclude them would have created a great deal more ire. That was their first step to include women willingly. Those who didnt abide were of course branded witches and hunted down, many famous inquisitions prove this.

The need to for belief (in unification) was more prevelelant than the need for truth, you see. So you're right there are many misgivings in the RC Church and their dogma, as well as others. I guess my point is that carrying this book as righteous word of god, when you know its authors and editors were indeed the RC Church and the roman empire that imposed it, gives pause for thought. Kind of like beleiveing in George Bush because the US constitution has merit. And it does, the best document ever penned though it lacks things they could not have forseen in todays climate.

Jesus or no Jesus, it has merit, I'm not sure it means beleive in its characters Mary is a character, a vessel as you say. Symbolic methods of creating a feeling in god.

I'm betting you could point your prayer at Mary, even Agnes or Wanda and still accomplish a feeling in god.

Just one more thing I forgot to mention, though I kind of ended on that note.

Mary or Jesus, or pagan rituals and the bible are all instruments of connection spritually. Some of the pagan rituals would blow your mind, they do mine anyway and I find them intriguing, but what I have come away with having attended catholic schools and other churches from associating with women of diff religions, is that the ceremomy is a way of tuning in.

The rituals are inconsequnetial compared to making the connection, but for some this is how they prepare themselves to tune in. To point their intent at whatever their belief is. Makes sense when you think about it. Some religions chant to do so, some meditate, some pray and give praise. These rituals serve as mental and spiritual prep., as does the bible for you.

I don't want to discourage from studying the bible, Most people I know who have, have since come away feeling more empowered, not empowered with gods, but empowered in themselves. Unless a religion gets a hold of them.. Reading any book puts you in a 'space' with its characters, real or imagined, fiction and non-fiction, we feel a reality conncetion while we read.

You've had experiences Orla, and you had them sans Bible, yes!?. This is a very telling fact and one you wouldn't want to ignore.
You also have stated that you beleive we are all connected to god. When you think about it, you realise that this god can speak to you without a Bible, or a Quran, or the Tao, because we are all connected, yes? He/She is a sense... and sense-able.

So who would need this book, if this true?

You've known goodness without it.
You've known love without it.
You've known the difference between right and wrong without it.
You've known you without it, though sometimes we chase our own tails, and need direction, I know.

So, who would have need of pushing this book as the one and only connection, if this is true? Certainly not a man who wants you purely to know god.


happy reading O

bambino a cuore!

Well, I also have tons to say to many of the responses posted from my comments, but I only have limited time on here, so let me just reply quickly to you. You can think of the Virgin Mary as the very first Christian because of the Immaculate Conception. In Luke 1:46, Mary said her soul is blessed by the Lord, or is magnified by the Lord. Read that verse and you will see what I mean. When we pray to her, we are adhering with her to the plan of the Father, who sends his Son to save all men. Like the beloved disciple, we welcome Jesus' mother into our homes for she has become the mother of all the living. We can pray with and to her. The prayer of the Church is sustained by the prayer of Mary and united with it in hope.

Have you ever asked anyone to pray for you...such as your priest, your friends, relatives, other people in your church? Is that not asking them to intercede for you? All Christians have compassion and desire to assist people in their relationship with Christ. Doing this in no way diminishes Jesus' role as the Lord and Saviour. I don't think any Christian would say "Don't talk to me!! Go pray directly to Jesus yourself!"

My experience with Mary has actually significantly improved my relationship with my Lord and Saviour, Jesus. I think time spent with Mary deepens our relationship with Christ. Your Church friends or your pastor all focus on Jesus Christ. To me the logical end of not praying to Mary is that I should never talk to or pray with any other Christians. It suggests I shouldn't go to prayer groups, or even read the Old Testament (because it predates Christ). It suggests I should only talk with Christ alone and never even talk to another human being. To me, that is a definition of a hermit and although it can be a valuable calling for some, I don't think it is for me.

Mary's role is not to take the place of Jesus. She is proud of her Son and wants everyone to know about her Son Jesus and she will do anything to help that relationship. So that is why we pray to her. It is crucial in our relationship with the Lord.

There is no specific verse in the bible that says "pray to Mary", but in Isaiah 11:1-3 we see that we are endowed with the seven gifts of the Holy Spirit which prompts us in our beliefs and justifies our prayerful habits. These seven gifts are: wisdom, understanding, knowledge, counsel, piety, fortitude, and fear of the Lord.

So do not look in the bible for something that is not there. Instead, use your heart, mind, and soul with these gifts and read and follow the words that ARE there.

that is so sad, to be ruled by fear of anyone or anything. Maybe these gods should just put rabid pit bulls in your yard and keep you under house arrest.

Jesus desires that we develop a personal relationship with God (through him), this is achieved not by intercession of any other individual... try praying to Jesus/God... I have never said anything bad about Mary (have a look at my posts) she is indeed blessed among women, of all the prophets and saints her annointing was the most significant and most important in history, to have chosen her is very significant indeed.

I of course ask others for prayer from time to time, it is said in the Bible that when two or more persons are gathered in prayer, that prayer is more powerful. But these individuals are not praying to anyone else but God...

Ok tell me this.. why do you require Mary to pray to God on your behalf? Can you not pray to God yourself? that is better surely and more in keeping with what Jesus asks of us, I know you love Jesus, that is clear from your post.. so why bypass him..? I just don't see the point.. I also reckon that if we were required to pray to Mary, or if it were Gods intention that we pray to anyone but him (through Jesus) then he would have said it.. in plain black and white, but he hasn't, in fact he has plainly said the opposite...

Now.. It is clear that you are a man of faith... and have a desire to get closer to God.. why not therefore do as he says... We indeed (when we accept Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour) receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit, I myself have received a few.... if you have been gifted in such a way, ask the Lord for confirmation on what he wants you to do, the Holy Spirit will quide you to the relevant passage in the Bible.... Just ask and you will receive enlightenment.. this will take the form of a 'word' i.e a compulsion to look at a particular chapter... or an action.. randomly landing on a page... when you do that, something will resonate in your heart, and you will know that you are being spoken to.. try it.. see what happens..

Anyway.. no hard feelings you seem like a sound spiritual person, and I know that your views are heartfelt and sincere