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The Birth of Moses and Barak Obama

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The Birth of Moses and Barak Obama

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Hugz_n_Kissez
Someplace, Ontario Canada
Posted: Sep 18, 2008, 12:45 PM CST
Well I think to vote for a president based on whether he is pro-choice or not is ridiculous...I mean for god sake what does that have to do with being the best man for the job of president...the decisions he will make on behalf of the country and it's people...abortion will always exist...no matter if it's legal or not...Roe v. wade did not create abortion...it was happening long before that in back room abortion clinics where many women were hacked up and died....so overturning the R. V. Wade decision doesn't mean the end of abortions...merely a return to dangerous and dirty backroom clinics!!!!!


wine
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Fallingman
dublin, Dublin Ireland
Posted: Sep 18, 2008, 12:45 PM CST
What a sad attitude! moping
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Fallingman
dublin, Dublin Ireland
Posted: Sep 18, 2008, 12:46 PM CST
Fallingman wrote:
What a sad attitude!


I meant the post above you Hugz
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Hugz_n_Kissez
Someplace, Ontario Canada
Posted: Sep 18, 2008, 12:50 PM CST
Fallingman wrote:
I meant the post above you Hugz



Sure ya did....sticking out tongue



Hey guys....wave wink hug teddy bear
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Fallingman
dublin, Dublin Ireland
Posted: Sep 18, 2008, 12:52 PM CST
Hugz_n_Kissez wrote:
Sure ya did....
Hey guys....


Hello ladies! Nice to see a couple of sane people in the political threads! laugh wave
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cherokeemoon2
grove, Oklahoma USA
Posted: Sep 18, 2008, 1:13 PM CST
ttom500 wrote:
I just had lunch with my pastor.....we got into the issue Sanctity of Life, the cornerstone of the pro life arguement in the abortion debate.

I got thinking about Sanator Obama's positions on abortion. Also I am aware of his IL Senate speech on a aborted pre nup baby and the right to take this child's life after it lived for 45 minutes....breathing, crying, and doing what a normal infant would do. He argued that the baby could be killed, by the law of law today.

I also got thinking back to the days of ancient Egypt. When Moses was a Isreal baby. Then as the biblical story goes and even the later Eyptian writings attest....Moses because of the law of land...a decree by the Pharoah..... was to be put to death. His mother not wishing to do this....places him in a reed basket and floats him on the Nile. There found by a woman who was a member of the Pharoah court.....she saved him and raised as Egyptican prince.......and later became the man, God used to set the Nation of Isreal free.

So?

What if Barak Obama had found Moses drifting helpless in a reed basket. .....knew the law of the land.....was to kill Isreal infants. What do you think would happen, after knowing his position on abortion and on his IL Senate arguement to terminate the life of that aborted fetus that lived for 45 minutes.

I suggest that Barak Obama would have little problem.....walking down into the Nile River....taking the reed basket from under that infant's body.....and letting that infant sink into the river and drown.

You say that is murder....infancide. It is.

So was the death of that pre nup fetus that lived for 45 minutes.

Both had the law of the land approval, both were infants, both were helpless. So what is the difference?

In both cases the Sancity of Life was or would have been violated. Wish to make one worse that the other? Barak's stance on Roe v Wade does. He would argue that Roe v Wade sees that unwanted baby/child/fetus (take your pick) whether in the womb or outside the womb.....the fate of which is the woman' giving birth. When is not the woman's right to this fate? When the rule of the land says so. (More on that later in the post)

That the law of the land gives her that right. So Barak doesnot actually do the killing here....he lets the weight of that decision on the woman deciding to abort.

We know what Moses turned out to be. He was a brillant archectect and was number 3 man in Egypt prior to being forced out of Egypt. Then returned to Egypt and with God's help on a brutal Pharoah to set the nation of Isreal free.

We donot know, nor does Obama know, what this pre nup infant could have been. But to struggle for 45 minutes in the world following a late term abortion....this kid had sprint and spunk....and a strong will to live. That is the kind of stuff God uses.

My thought is that if Barak Obama can use Roe v Wade to justify infancide.....he is capable of just about anything. I could not do it....either back in the days of Moses birth or with a aborted pre nup fetus. I would be with that woman of Pharoah's court, figuring a way to keep that infant in the reed basket alive. But where would you be?

There was a another biblical figure that had birth and then 'law of the land' threat to his young life. Jesus of Nazreth.

This is a hard OP to read. I fully intended it to be. The fact in the last 10 years..some 140,000,000 million abortions were done. All within the rule of law of the land of the United States.

End of part One
I wonder how many have actually seen or know what they do in partial birth aboration?if not heres the descripton They allow the babys head to come out of the birth canal and the Dr inserts a pair of sharp instruments at the base of the babies skull.How in the world could that not be murder.World Harvest Church in Columbus Ohio was key to stopping that,we signed petitions and sent to all Goverment Officials.barfing
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Posted: Sep 18, 2008, 1:58 PM CST
I doubt that Moses was born 4 months early...



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druidess6308
Aliquippa, Pennsylvania USA
Posted: Sep 18, 2008, 2:36 PM CST
Fallingman wrote:
And why would that be, Druidess?


I don't trust the media-fed opinion of the rest of the world, FM. Never will.

The media in this country seem to forget that if we lose our 2nd Amendment rights, we'll also lose our 1st Amendment rights because we won't have the means to protect them. The day they wise up to that is the day they'll finally stop loving the democrats.
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Posted: Sep 18, 2008, 2:40 PM CST
Hugz_n_Kissez wrote:
Well I think to vote for a president based on whether he is pro-choice or not is ridiculous...I mean for god sake what does that have to do with being the best man for the job of president...the decisions he will make on behalf of the country and it's people...abortion will always exist...no matter if it's legal or not...Roe v. wade did not create abortion...it was happening long before that in back room abortion clinics where many women were hacked up and died....so overturning the R. V. Wade decision doesn't mean the end of abortions...merely a return to dangerous and dirty backroom clinics!!!!!


I'd never vote for someone who was against it!!! The legal kind...
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ttom500
St. Cloud, Florida USA
Posted: Sep 18, 2008, 5:27 PM CST
Now that we have had a few opinions rendered to the post. Some I will address and others I will not. If you want me to, please do ask.

The debate in the IL Senate was on two central issues.

1) Was the child alive?
2) If so, did the medical team that do some thing wrong, by not giving medical aid? E.G. Was it murder, neglant homicide, and some kind of manslauter not to render medical that they had available? Pretty serious charges all.

A third issue was, then should the State of IL have laws to define the actions of Medical Staff doing late term abortions in which this happens.

Had I been on that medical team. We rush that pre mature to the natal care unit, place it in a incubator and see what happens. We take care of the legal issues later. We don't let it die in a broom closet in such a ignoble manner. They debated this in the hospital that day.

I can make that decision by knowing the following. That even if the woman refused to accept the child, assuming it lived. The child is a
few signatures away from being a ward of the state, with a strong
possiblity of adoption. This child can be a part of our country.

Anything wrong here?

Barak Obama position is....that once the woman signs for a abortion....then the fetus is dead to the state and the state does not have rights to intervene. That is what he argued in the IL State Senate. Where is the compassion for voiceless in that?

We have this situation play out 100s of times.....with abused children that are made wards of the State. Totally contridictory to the position Barak takes here.Why does the State and those that represent the state need to take a life because of roe v wade and abortion....need to violate sanctity of life?

To those that say I go back to far in using the births of Moses and Jesus as examples. That is where in the Judeo-Christian faith and law, sanctity of life gets debated from. The morality of the issue faced then, still merits to be in the debate, today. The question is does one to live to the law of the land or to the morality of sanctity of life? I used them to show that these can be at odds and can show modern ones.

Barak is a Havard educated attroney. Roe v Wade, the debate of abortion and sanctity of life, is one that has been in the classroom since the 1970s. He knew the issues here. Only in a debate of a serious manner, he does not choose the right side of the issue....to either his Christian faith or to medical technologies can achieved.

He started to give that "this is above my paygrade" answer way back then in IL Senate.

What is sad here, is the Barak choose to stay to the letter of the law of the land....instead of saying this is place where 'change' is needed. Where medical professionals doing late term abortions need guidance and gov't laws to follow in the case of a living fetus from a abortion.
He dodges a hard ethical question here.

Now I have told you what I would do in both the case of Moses in the basket of reeds and in the case of this pre mature child.

I can guarrantee you...to nearly 100%.....that had that woman been Michelle Obama in a pre mature birth situation.....Barak Obama would have been saying.....take my child to the natal ward and put it in incubator and give it a chance to live. That is the love of parent for a child.

There is no question that Obama loves his children. What he needs to understand is sometimes, the state needs to love children as well. Yet Barak Obama, because of the law of the land, cannot let the state do this in the case of living aborted.

To me that shows a lack empathy and a lack of judgement on the Senators part.

When I hear dogdeball and evasive answers, to criticial issues in the country, from a politician that seeks to be a key leader ......I look for the reason(s) they come. It tells mores about them, than thier telepromted speeches and thier campaign ads.
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ttom500
St. Cloud, Florida USA
Posted: Sep 18, 2008, 5:31 PM CST
Olsojente wrote:
I doubt that Moses was born 4 months early...
Is that where you draw a line to aid helpless infant, Oslo?.....no surely not. 4 month or full term....you would aid the infant.
As I understand it IL abortion was late term....6 month on.....
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ttom500
St. Cloud, Florida USA
Posted: Sep 18, 2008, 5:34 PM CST
Hugz_n_Kissez wrote:
Well I think to vote for a president based on whether he is pro-choice or not is ridiculous...I mean for god sake what does that have to do with being the best man for the job of president...the decisions he will make on behalf of the country and it's people...abortion will always exist...no matter if it's legal or not...Roe v. wade did not create abortion...it was happening long before that in back room abortion clinics where many women were hacked up and died....so overturning the R. V. Wade decision doesn't mean the end of abortions...merely a return to dangerous and dirty backroom clinics!!!!!


I am not saying cast your vote on this one issue. Saying consider a issue to his judgement and empathy. Barak is painting himself as a 'man that is in touch with us'. Really? Here a chance for him to
demostrate that on a single case, if he really is in touch with issues that get faced in our society.

Late term living births abortion are a fairly common thing.
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ttom500
St. Cloud, Florida USA
Posted: Sep 18, 2008, 5:40 PM CST
agman wrote:
Not sure one can infer anything from past history. What if Moses
was killed, maybe no Isrealites would be fighting today in the
land of Canaan. What if Hitler mother aborted her baby. Maybe
WWII would have never happened.


Sure Agman...the point is at some point in all of our lives....the state comes into contact with us. Do you want people running the state that
can abort a life because of rule of the land OR show mercy and make exception? Law and mercy need to go hand in hand, Agman.

In the question of Moses...someone showed that mercy.....had the courage to disobey the law of land.....and saved a infant. And if Hitler's mother had aborted him, then Goebells or Goering was likely to replace him as a brutal dictator.jmo
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druidess6308
Aliquippa, Pennsylvania USA
Posted: Sep 18, 2008, 5:42 PM CST
Thank you, Ttom for the additional info on this case.

OK, so with the baby being viable, then I agree that it should have been allowed to live. I don't agree with late-term abortion. By then, you've carried it that long, have it adopted. There are plenty of people out there who can't have children who would raise it with love.

I agree that I don't like Obama's stance on this case. The baby should have been allowed to live, the mother no longer had the right, and it is infanticide. I don't remember infanticide being the law of our land. (And no, the right to abortion is not the same thing.)

I refuse to go into the religious aspects that you've brought into a legal question, and I still believe in women having choice. As Hugz said, and as I was pointing out, making it illegal doesn't stop it, it just makes it very unsanitary, unsafe, and even lethal to the mother. You are a man, so you can't be raped and spend time wondering if you're pregnant from it.
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livinglarge
kildare, Kildare Ireland
Posted: Sep 18, 2008, 5:43 PM CST
cherokeemoon2 wrote:
I wonder how many have actually seen or know what they do in partial birth aboration?if not heres the descripton They allow the babys head to come out of the birth canal and the Dr inserts a pair of sharp instruments at the base of the babies skull.How in the world could that not be murder.World Harvest Church in Columbus Ohio was key to stopping that,we signed petitions and sent to all Goverment Officials.
Yes I saw an abortion on Channel 4 television !
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ttom500
St. Cloud, Florida USA
Posted: Sep 18, 2008, 5:47 PM CST
druidess6308 wrote:
I believe that life is sacred, and that yes, it begins at the time of creation. However, there are reasons that I believe abortion is a valid choice. I have been raped...lost my virginity to it. Should I have been made to carry a child to term if one had been conceived during that act? Some women have chosen to do so, I don't know what my own choice would have been and I'm glad I didn't have to do so. I do know that I'm glad that I would have had a choice, and that because I had a choice it would have been done safely and medically instead of by some quack with a hanger in an unsanitary manner which would possibly have left me sterile for the rest of my life and unable to have children with a man I loved in the future, if I didn't bleed to death.

So, those of you who are "pro-life", I agree with and understand your reasons. However, I am "pro-choice" because I think that there are times and reasons that a woman shouldn't have to have the baby, and that if she doesn't, she has the right not to risk death or sterility to practice that choice. I don't believe in it being used as birth control, though. We have other means available for that. I do know that happens, and I'm sorry that it does. However, there are always those who abuse laws.

You have the right to your opinion. I have the right to mine, and I am glad that the laws exist.

As to killing the baby that had survived...that is an entirely different issue than a woman's right to choose abortion. Was that nurse willing to adopt and care for that baby? Would it have survived? Why was the mother terminating the pregnancy so late, anyway? There are many more things that I would have to know before I gave an opinion on that particular case.


First Druidess, thank you for sharing your personal expereince here.
That I know is hard to do. Yes each has thier right to the opinion on abortion. I am pro life to when it comes to incest, rape, health of the mother. Then I have no problem with abortion.

And you are totally right to the issue of killing this abrted fetus that was living. If you read my earlier post, you could see the option that the medical team had that day. They did not have the courage to act for the fetus.....likely because of the fear of what the mother would do and because of roe v wade......and that Barak later in the IL Senate fails to address it. That is the core of what the thread is about.

Again thank you for sharing your thought here.
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ttom500
St. Cloud, Florida USA
Posted: Sep 18, 2008, 5:51 PM CST
Fallingman wrote:
What if Barak Obama turned out to be a genuinely compassionate President who wished to lead his people well and wisely?

Just as likely as your scenario ttom......a lot more likely in fact!


Would you agree that we are vetting these two tickets that are running for office right now? That Barak has a really thin resume'?
That we have to look into his near time past to understand him?

I saying this a example of really bad judgement and shows that he fails to take the opporunity to make positive change when faced with a
opportunity to do so.
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druidess6308
Aliquippa, Pennsylvania USA
Posted: Sep 18, 2008, 6:07 PM CST
ttom500 wrote:
First Druidess, thank you for sharing your personal expereince here.
That I know is hard to do. Yes each has thier right to the opinion on abortion. I am pro life to when it comes to incest, rape, health of the mother. Then I have no problem with abortion.

And you are totally right to the issue of killing this abrted fetus that was living. If you read my earlier post, you could see the option that the medical team had that day. They did not have the courage to act for the fetus.....likely because of the fear of what the mother would do and because of roe v wade......and that Barak later in the IL Senate fails to address it. That is the core of what the thread is about.

Again thank you for sharing your thought here.


Actually, Ttom, I've shared my experiences many times to many audiences for different reasons. I gladly share what I've been through to help others, or to help others understand my opinions and beliefs. There are no open wounds in my life, only scars of those that are healed, and some are so old as to hardly be visible any more. But thank you.

Shame on the medical team for not having that courage, though. I've been in the medical field, and the life of a human is supposed to be what they're about. And at that point, it wasn't a fetus anymore, but a viable life. A baby.

And at least you're not so fanatical on the pro-life/pro-choice as to not understand the reasons why some of us are staunchly pro-choice. But I agree that there are abuses of it and that there should be some regulation. There is middle ground that can be walked on this issue that would have saved that baby's life. I agree that it's a shame that it fought so valiantly to live, only to be let down by those around it. Maybe this lesson will still produce some good. Remember, everything happens for a reason.
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ttom500
St. Cloud, Florida USA
Posted: Sep 18, 2008, 6:12 PM CST
Some of the comments here, Crotalus, Honestly I don't understand.
Those I will not address....give me a little more explanation....if you wish a response.

crotalus_p wrote:
Yes by a mile

Even if you are anti choice that is not a good enough reason to vote Pailen in it’s something like a 1in 6 or a 1 in eight chance that Mc Cain will not make it past the first term leaving her as president and she is far from qualified to hold the position

----------------------------------------^-----------------------------------------
Well at least McCain has more chance of making thru his term of office than that abort fetus had to making to first grade. Odds being what they are for any President in the world of crazies that we live in is pretty thin. On the other hand.....McCain is a tough character, Crotalus...what he faced in Vet Nam make this walk in the park if elected.

There is no evidence for either outside the bible so using them is a mute point any way even if we where to grant the bible validity which it does not have one could say well if Hitler’s mother had the choice to abort .

---------------------------------------^--------------------------------------------
Better check your Egyptian writings on that. Plenty of evidence for Moses in them. I never imagined that Hitler's mother would come into this as a debate issue....sorry.....I have a hard time seeing the point.

I don’t know how your system works but to amend the Irish constitution the people have to vote for itThere is noting wrong with being liberal, if there is a case to here they will hear it

----------------------------------------^-----------------------------------------
2/3 of Senate with signature of the Preisdent and majority vote of House (I think) to ratify. No need for the people to ratify.

The main problem is that you are basing who you want to vote for based on one issue , when that issue in the grand scheme of things ie how the candidate would handle the possibility of international is insignificant
-----------------------------------------^------------------------------------------
Saying it is an example of his decision making and his judgement in applying his Christian faith to an issue of the country. Look sorry I hate to tell you this....he running to be President of the United States.
How he handle international issues might be great importance in your opinion. How he handle issues inside our country is important to the voters here. I read what foreign parties say. But deciding who I vote for....is the man that will serve the country and people better in my opinion. I would not come to you when voting for a Irish leader....and say....this man is better for the US and international world.....vote for him. I want you to put the person best for the Irish people in there.


As far as I am concerned if it can breath for 45 minutes and is viable it should be given every chance to survive but I do stress it must be viable

-------------------------------------------^---------------------------------------
Honestly, I don't know the condition of the fetus in question. The questions I raise is more to his position in the IL Senate by rejecting legislation to answer the question in future similar cases. It was very short cited in my opinion, with the number of abortions that we have.
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crotalus_p
Rush , Dublin Ireland
Posted: Sep 18, 2008, 6:26 PM CST
ttom500 wrote:
Some of the comments here, Crotalus, Honestly I don't understand.
Those I will not address....give me a little more explanation....if you wish a response.-------------------------------------------^---------------------------------------
Honestly, I don't know the condition of the fetus in question. The questions I raise is more to his position in the IL Senate by rejecting legislation to answer the question in future similar cases. It was very short cited in my opinion, with the number of abortions that we have.



Highlight what you don’t understand


ps


what was the reason for the late term abortion ??
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