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JacobGrimm: To qualify even further, just being 'attached' or in a serious relationship.

So many people rely on and or talk about soulmates, as if there is only this one solution to being alone in life. Desperately seeking the one. How many people do we pass by as unsuitable without examination, in this desperation and is it healthy for us to consider but one single choice.

With so much failure in relationships, is monogamy a cause of this desperation, abiding a delusion created by religion's moral codes.

If marriage is an act of love, what is love an act of?

Galactic_bodhi: Paradox is only a challenge to a linear mind. The whole purpose of a Koan is to move us beyond linearity into the realm of no-thought.

Dusty45: While it is not a contest...I Love the Journey.

Galactic_bodhi: Paradox is only a challenge to a linear mind. The whole purpose of a Koan is to move us beyond linearity into the realm of no-thought.

dcj22: Now that makes more sense.

woody636: Hiya Jacob! Just curiousity on my part; have you ever been in a really good marriage? From what I've seen you post, I get the impression that you would have a real problem with making that type of commitment. Am I wrong? No offence intended; as I said just curious.

JacobGrimm: Been married once! Some 25 yrs ago.

Not with the committment Woody, but with the intent of the notion. I understand the concepts of marriage and the 'perfections of altruism' that we aspire to in commitment. I don't want to commit to a notion' but to a person and myself.

I try to live more in the now, or at least as much as is possible with my present limitations and nature. The OP is about riding ourselves of preconcieved notions that may not sever us as we might think they do and I am really just asking the questions about this to see where others are and to learn.

Once I have decided to committ to anything, I am probably stubbornly committed, any of my friends might tell you this. I am however as I said, not willing to committ to a notion unless, it is, as much as possible, more about 'now', than about yesterday's or tomorrow's notions. And that too is an altruistic notion in itself.

woody636: Thx for the response. Personally, I was in a very good marriage for 36 years until losing her to cancer. To me the act of marriage was a promise to work at the relationship, something we both took very seriously. Our lives were intertwined in all things as she was also my best friend. I understand what you're saying but if you can't/won't commit, are you in effect saying "I can walk away anytime I want"?

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Maybe some of that is preconceived notions, but then you are a product of your environment and how you were raised.

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I think maybe the high divorce rate has more to do with "instant gratification" then anything else. If you aren't "happy" just bail out. As a lot of people have already stated, a ltr takes work from both parties and a commitment to make it work. The actual marriage certificate was just a public declaration of our intentions. For me, the benefits of having a life long companion to share ALL the joys, heartaches, triumphs, and failures far outweighed any of the obstacles we had to overcome. At least for me, that's how it worked.

JacobGrimm: Nope! I am saying that sometimes the notion of 'forever' stops us from experiencing togetherness because we won't commit unless we are sure we have that 'notion of forever' firmly entrenched in the relationship.True, a point in the OP as well though I would venture to say a great deal is preconcieved. I'm not saying its the 'wrong' or 'right' type of goal either. At some point one has to assume at least some wisdom in our elders; but wisdom is personal and relative to one's own events.
And you had that Woody My question to you, in light of the OP would be, would you have made the same committment had you known that the relationship would only last 2 weeks or weren't even sure about that? Would you committ to a single moment without future expectations?

I'm saying that some people don't get whay you had, in fact I think and jmo, that most people dont get that; because they live in the past or the future, preconcieved notions affecting the choices they make.

The notion of forever love is also the notion of forever hell as well. People who are ruled by notions tend to fall as hard on both sides of the coin you see. One day its love, the next its hell and they feel that it is 'forever'. I think that factor moves folks in and out of relationships quicker than the marriage/divorce stats can manage to keep up with.

I guess my contention is that it is unrealistic.

JacobGrimm: Nope! I am saying that sometimes the notion of 'forever' stops us from experiencing togetherness because we won't commit unless we are sure we have that 'notion of forever' firmly entrenched in the relationship.True, a point in the OP as well though I would venture to say a great deal is preconcieved. I'm not saying its the 'wrong' or 'right' type of goal either. At some point one has to assume at least some wisdom in our elders; but wisdom is personal and relative to one's own events.
And you had that Woody My question to you, in light of the OP would be, would you have made the same committment had you known that the relationship would only last 2 weeks or weren't even sure about that? Would you committ to a single moment without future expectations?

I'm saying that some people don't get whay you had, in fact I think and jmo, that most people dont get that; because they live in the past or the future, preconcieved notions affecting the choices they make.

The notion of forever love is also the notion of forever hell as well. People who are ruled by notions tend to fall as hard on both sides of the coin you see. One day its love, the next its hell and they feel that it is 'forever'. I think that factor moves folks in and out of relationships quicker than the marriage/divorce stats can manage to keep up with.

I guess my contention is that it is unrealistic.

woody636: Thx for the response. Personally, I was in a very good marriage for 36 years until losing her to cancer. To me the act of marriage was a promise to work at the relationship, something we both took very seriously. Our lives were intertwined in all things as she was also my best friend. I understand what you're saying but if you can't/won't commit, are you in effect saying "I can walk away anytime I want"? Maybe some of that is preconceived notions, but then you are a product of your environment and how you were raised. I think maybe the high divorce rate has more to do with "instant gratification" then anything else. If you aren't "happy" just bail out. As a lot of people have already stated, a ltr takes work from both parties and a commitment to make it work. The actual marriage certificate was just a public declaration of our intentions. For me, the benefits of having a life long companion to share ALL the joys, heartaches, triumphs, and failures far outweighed any of the obstacles we had to overcome. At least for me, that's how it worked.

woody636: If you take as given, that were an intelligent species, then you have to assume that people can differentiate between the glorified stories of love at the movies and real life relationships based on personal observations. No one knows what tomorrow is going to bring. You base your decisions on how you feel and how you perceive yourself and your partner at that time. I think I understand what your saying about the "notion of forever" but what if you change that to "the notion of building a life together"? I believe that's more apt and the other is more "poetic liscense" then anything else.

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Would I have made the same commitment if I knew it was only for two weeks? Would depend on the circumstances. If she was terminally ill and only had two weeks to live - if I loved her I'd do it in a heartbeat. If she was moving away to start another career on the other side of the world - probably not because there wouldn't be the expectation of building a life for the two of us. Would I enjoy the two weeks we had before she left? Definitely, but not in the same exact way. Know what I mean?

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I think you're right to a point about the preconceived notions. Some are so caught up in the fictionalized accounts of "storybook romances" that they can't face the reality of marriage or a long term relationship. But, for every bad marriage/relationship you know about, I'll bet I can name a good one too! We don't hear about those because they're not on this site. (At least most aren't! )

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As for notions of forever, be it heaven or hell, maybe its more that people get caught up in the moment and commit to something BEFORE they've fully thought it through. Divorce is so easy and as for live ins - you can move in one day and out the next. Passion tends to make people think with the wrong part of their anatomy! Marriage or ltr is not a decision to be made lightly; if you go into the situation with realistic expectations your partner/spouse is not trying to live up to some fairytale image.

woody636: Passion tends to make people think with the wrong part of their anatomy!

JacobGrimm: well it's still a notion woody and 'life' is the forever part Still somewhat poetically inclined .. Just not sure that changes falling for preconceptions. However I'd be more for that notion, as far as notions go

Don't quite understand where you're going on this one. Everyone has expectations of what they want or are looking for out of life. I expected certain things out of my marriage. That's realistic, not a preconceived idea. If I expected her to cook, clean, and be dressed up with makeup when I got home from work, those would be preconceived ideas. We wanted to have a family, build a home, and discussed such BEFORE marriage, so not really preconceived.

I do know what you mean. These are however "if you knew such and such, scenarios" and I am asking ,what would you do if you didn't know these things. No ifs, ands, or buts...


I DID that. When I married my wife, no one gave me a guarantee that we were going to live "happily ever after" or that it would last longer that two weeks. I KNEW I wanted to be with her - no matter how long our time together would be - and we PROMISED each other to work at it in our marriage vows.


this site isn't exactly my prime indicator of mariage statistics. Global stats show a great deal of non success and in fact a lot of people don't get married, they live together now first to see if its workable. The problem I think is the 'notion' of forever again... ie, "do I really want to spend my life with this person who leaves the toilet seat up, annoying the hell out of me, for the rest of my life, forever." It becomes and exageration of hell just as the exageration of heaven was when they fell in love.

Disagree here. I think the reason marriages are on the downswing is because women are much more finacially independent. That wasn't the case in our recent past. There's your notions! In years past for a woman to be considered sucessful she had to be married, have a home, 2.2 kids, a dog, ect., ect.. Doesn't apply anymore as they have become a force in the workplace, taking there place right there with the men for the top jobs.

Cant disagree. Realistic and as much in the now as possible

woody636: We are all products of our upbringing to an extent.

JacobGrimm: Moreso than we think would be my assessment Woody. It's these by-products of upbringing that we need to examine to see if they help or hinder our own progress.

woody636: Guess it really comes down to contentment with yourself. If you like who/what you are, you can be comfortable with your own feelings. Different for each and every one of us. My parents had a lifelong commitment - 50 + years. Thats what I was raised with, thats what I saw - their ups and downs, joys and sadness. But, they persevered and had a fantastic life together. Knowing that it CAN be that way gave me my expectations. Is that a bad thing?

JacobGrimm: No... it's a good thing! When one is raised with appropriate associations that shows through. Either that or one learns those 'good' associations on their own. A more difficult road if one is raised in dysfunctional environs and never questions the preconceptions they have.

Don't know; just how I am. So, maybe you're right in that your upbringing really determines how you view relationships. If you had a horrible home life as a child, I would imagine it has a GREAT effect on how you view your own relationships. Think you definitely have to re-evaluate your goals/expectations especially if you've been in tragic relationships as to the causes.

For some because of their upbringing, marriage really is an act of desperation.

woody636: Don't know that I'd go so far as to say an act of desperation but I think people in those circumstances have a tendency to have unrealistic expectations of marriage. Marriage isn't the end all/be all; it's just a way of life thats shared between two people. A lot has been said/posted about chemistry/sex between two people but if you REALLY think about it, its such a small part of the time you have together. Important yes, but only one small aspect of sharing your lives. All the rest is what makes a good relationship and it takes an effort and compromise. It comes down to a matter of WANTING to make it work; how much you really want to be with that person, trust, ect.. That can be a HUGE issue with a lot of people.