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LILLYLADY: Hello Nora,
Thank you for being polite in your words in spite of your anger and heartache for your people.
You keep asking who cares in your thread. I happen to care and lived there at some point in my life. But as I have said before, if your own elected leaders cannot live in peace with their own people over there, then they will certainly not gain respect from the world community because they are not ready for a peaceful country of their own. It was very obvious to the world how Hamas rules when they were given a chance for a co-ruling govt with Fatah. Do you recall many large protests around the world when the co-ruling Arabic peoples in Gaza couldn't settle their own differences peacefully?

As for the history of the Middleast, you as well as I know that Jews have been there since Abraham, being he is your forefather as well. The land is given to the Jews in the Old Testament and their descendants through Abraham, Issac, Jacob etc. However, the Koranic version may see it differently. I will not argue biblical scripture or Koran. However, the reality is that both people have lived there throughout time and have legitimate claims.
The Jews over the centuries have been moved or were forced out of that area and back in again through many wars and empires that have taken over in that area of the world for 1000s of years. But many were not able to get back so there is a diaspora of Jewish descendants all over the world. Surely the Arabic peoples were shifted around too for similar reasons.


May 14,1948-Palestine is now an official Jewish state-within minutes...5 Arab countries attacked it, unsuccessfully.
June 5,1967-6 Day War-Israel is attacked from all sides again. Now Israel has some of their land and will not give it back without a promise of peace.
1973-Yom Kippur War- Egypt and Syria attack. The Suez became part of Israel. Later given back to Egypt for a peace treaty that is still in effect. Thanks to a very brave leader Sadat. My point in writing this history Nora is that I truly believe that if Hamas would have the foresight to follow in the courage of Sadat, I truly believe that they would be recognized and be given that land and more. In spite of Sadat's warrior past, I will always have my respect for this man for his courage and honor to his people.
(To be continued pt 2 to Nora)

leolove1: to disarm Israel is a very naive idea , they need to protect themselves against so much hate

leolove1: to disarm Israel is a very naive idea , they need to protect themselves against so much hate

JacobGrimm: where would they go, since for some, the fight is not wanted. Are your doors open, is your wallet open? Is your heart open? Are you a place of refuge or a constant deluge of hardass opinion only?

linarl: What hate are you talking about? When all parties agree to put only peace on the table and negotiate their ways to achieve this target without more conditions or lands as I said above, there will be no room for hate. All parties especially Israel will benefit from peace with its neighbors. Look at it this way, they tried wars and killing for 60 years and still not working. Maybe take these elements out of the equation may make a difference!

nora83: thnaks for your reply ,

well ! lets say all wat you said is correct , Jews lived in Palestine 2000 years ago, and they left , or had to leave , or anything happened .. and after these 2000 , lots of thing happened !! alooot , i mean its 2000 year , another nation lived there and here and died and other nations lived again and died and so on , so its kind of nor fair , to uproot the nation living currently in this land to replace them with the Jews m just for the fact that they lived here 2000 years ago , 2000 years ago , that caused huge disasters for our people , plus , we dont believe in your beliefs , when u say that you have the right to live here and rule the land bcz u livedhere 2000 years ago, the irabic islamic civilisation ( if you read in our history ) you will know that our impire extended into many far places , like the Spain , Turkey , China , and many other places, and lived there and ruled these lands for a longtime, and that was less than 1000 years ago, but we cant come now and accupy Spain or China or Turkey just bcz we lived there , i cant go there and kick its ppl our of it and kill them , and make of them refugees all over the world , committ crimes , just bcz my ancester lived there before , which is less than 2000 years ago , i never heard of this before .

thanks again for your post

LILLYLADY: (Part 2 to Nora)

In closing, I too have a connection to the Mideast as you rightfully have. I had the opportunity to live on a Kibbutz on the Lebanon border and watched the fighter jets go back and forth between Lebanon and Israel everyday. I lived in the bomb shelters too, I heard the machine guns as we were protected only by a stockade with watchtowers over the kibbutz. I picked fruit always worried if I stepped in the wrong place or picked up something on the ground, was it booby trapped underneath? The terrorists do not care when you die that you are a non Zionist. That's not their concern.The chain link barbed wire border fence was right there next to the fruit orchards.
You ask who is a Jew. I am the 3rd here to tell you that I am. I will also tell you that I also lost much of my family in the holocaust so I do have feelings for what you are questioning.I will also tell you that my heart is breaking for the deaths on both sides that are happening. One life lost is too much!! The children on both sides are the ones who will be affected for generations to come unless the leaders on both sides have the courage and foresight of Anwar Sadat to sign a lasting peace agreement. May Allah and our God of Abraham both guide that peace process. I have a true profound saddness.

nora83: thnaks for your reply ,

well ! lets say all wat you said is correct , Jews lived in Palestine 2000 years ago, and they left , or had to leave , or anything happened .. and after these 2000 , lots of thing happened !! alooot , i mean its 2000 year , another nation lived there and here and died and other nations lived again and died and so on , so its kind of nor fair , to uproot the nation living currently in this land to replace them with the Jews m just for the fact that they lived here 2000 years ago , 2000 years ago , that caused huge disasters for our people , plus , we dont believe in your beliefs , when u say that you have the right to live here and rule the land bcz u livedhere 2000 years ago, the irabic islamic civilisation ( if you read in our history ) you will know that our impire extended into many far places , like the Spain , Turkey , China , and many other places, and lived there and ruled these lands for a longtime, and that was less than 1000 years ago, but we cant come now and accupy Spain or China or Turkey just bcz we lived there , i cant go there and kick its ppl our of it and kill them , and make of them refugees all over the world , committ crimes , just bcz my ancester lived there before , which is less than 2000 years ago , i never heard of this before .

thanks again for your post

Drewski: Seam

Seems to me that this particular incident occurred when Hamas, (which is the elected government of Palestine) broke a ceasefire and began firing rockets into Israel. That their deliberate attempts to kill Israeli civilians and, once in a while accidentally killing the odd soldier is not mentioned. Instead, you focus on the response that Israel, like any responsible government would take, which was to secure their citizens from further attack. Here, unlike the Hamas attacks which precipitated this event, Israel deliberately attempts to kill Hamas militants and, accidentally kills women and children.

The fact that Hamas, during all this fighting, is still lobbing rockets into Israel while occupying bagttle positions which endanger civilians in order to deliberately kill Israeli women and children is proof of how little they care for the welfare of their own people.

So, if the elected government of Palestine does not give a hoot for their own people and, by their actions, endangers them and virtually pleads for hostile intervention by Israel in order to save Israeli lives, you expect Israel to forfeit their people's lives in deliberate intentional murder in favor of Palestinian lives which may come to harm accidentally?

cosmicwonderer: Hello there RAYfromUSA... I like to inform you that I am skipping reading the bullshit that the jews are justifying their actions with on this forum. The only ones worth reading are yours and my INCA friend. At least both of you make sense and hit the target. I´ll just let them keep on receiving the blessing of the Abraham god for the slaughter. I just don`t have the energy to waste any more of my precious time on swine.

leolove1: if hamas wants peace , they should stop firing rockets and make a peace-deal with Israel.
then the disarmament can start , not earlier

leolove1: I think it is better to show clearly your opinion and where you stand for , ok , it might look hard for you, but it is the only way to solve the problem , a soft approach will only get the situation worse, you have to be clear

leolove1: they might have kicked out the people that were only fighting , but if they wanted they could stay and many stayed and live in peace with the jewish and have an Israeli pasport

linarl: You see, that is the conditions that I was talking about. You cannot come to a negotiation table with what you want only and think that you will achieve peace. It failed for 60 years. Israel thinks that Hamas is the problem today. Yesterday it was Hezebollah, tomorrow somebody else. It is about time that Israel realizes that the approach of power and superiority won't get it to establish a state where people can live in peace and harmony with their neighbors.

JacobGrimm: where would they go, since for some, the fight is not wanted. Are your doors open, is your wallet open? Is your heart open? Are you a place of refuge or a constant deluge of hardass opinion only?

CjTenorSax: Ray from USA Wrote:

Well of course its not their fault.
How could anything ever possibly be their fault?
They are the "chosen".The world exists only for the chosen.
Other nations exist only to serve the chosen.You both DO NOT understand the original purpose of being "The Chosen Ones" was supposed to entail.

It was not supposed to be a eliteist thing. G-d's purpose was originally for the Jews to be a witness to the rest of the world, of his miracles.

They were to tell of these things, to help others see the Glory of G-d and carry the message of hope for a Messiah to come for all peoples.

Being human, though, the original purpose got twisted in arrogance and pride, as did, Adam and Eve in the Garden. Thereby, History repeated itself, further showing that Humanity needed and still needs a Messiah.

For the Messianic Jews and the Christians, this happened to make the way for Jesus, or Yeshua, in Hebrew, to come in to the world and fulfill the scriptures, being the Messiah.

linarl: What hate are you talking about? When all parties agree to put only peace on the table and negotiate their ways to achieve this target without more conditions or lands as I said above, there will be no room for hate. All parties especially Israel will benefit from peace with its neighbors. Look at it this way, they tried wars and killing for 60 years and still not working. Maybe take these elements out of the equation may make a difference!