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for anyone who did not hear Barack Obamas speech last night(uk time) suggest that you try and read the transcript

With all due respect, but what you have posted is a child's parable based on nothing!

It is not the story of what happened in the Middle East by a long shot.

Historical fact is what we are dealing with here. Real people, Real Children, Real pain and blood and death!

What you have written is the single most idiotic thing I have ever seen written about this serious and emotive subject.

Where is your mind?

Vinny look into the original portion of land from the Ottoman/Turkish empire that was 'recovered and see the size of the land. It was to be divided between the the Palestinians and the Jews. The Jews received a mere 20% in comparrison to the Palestinian 80%. Much of the Palestinian land was absorbed by Syria and Jordan but there are no complaints about any of that.
Israel took its 20% and made it fertile and productive and the Palestinians left theirs fallow or desolate.
Israel has taken land that was not what they originally had. Sometimes this is the nature of war. Does not make it right. Gaza and the West Bank might actually fall under the lands originally of the Philistines so this would constitute aggravated land claims. Odd that barren land is so hotly conntended when the lush lands subsumed by Syria and Jordan cause no such issue?
My neighbours bought the house beside them and bulldozed it. The tenants of this house in question made an eyesore of it with no upkeep and terrible environmental hygeine. Should the one who bought it and beautified the land with a huge garden and lush hedges and trees, now return it to the old owner if he demands it back?
Much of the Palestinian land has been legally sold to Israel on top of the encroachments. Should this likewise be returned?

Instead of getting so heated Patrick, show me, show me that anything in that story is so factually inaccurate as to be idiotic, it's so easy to knock what people say, not so easy to prove they are wrong.

I guarantee Patrick, that if you can prove to me that your stance is correct and mine is wrong,then I will desist from posting ever again in a political thread.

Hav to run BP but will reply later.......

If you wish to discuss politics, I will do so with you, but if you wish to discuss this farcical parable then I can recommend some Creative Literature forums to you.

I think that your reply proves my point, Shame that you have turned down my challenge, but I understand why.

A Challenge to discuss a political problem based on your "parable" You gotta be joking?

I will discuss Israel and Palestine as in the OP, but not some ridiculous analogy you have given to a serious political situation, treating it as a word game to be toyed with!

Can you not deal with the reality of the situation?

Shame on you..

Aren't you forgetting that ALL of the land was Palestinian until the Zionists invaded and attacked the British in a terrorist campaign, then declared themselves a state on totally stolen land without any valid claim to do so.

So don't try to pretend the Palestinians were the agressors for defending their own land.





Aren't you forgetting that every single Israeli PM has vowed to never return a single inch of conquered territory, ever.
When Zionists speak of "Eretz Israel" they claim that all land between the Euphrates and the Nile is theirs.
You know that's true. Drewski and it's totally bad faith to pretend otherwise.
But if you insist, I can find a lot of quotes to prove it.
You know I can.



Not necessarily, only if you actively seek to distort the truth and support regimes that conduct such atrocities. In that case yes, you bear a certain portion of the guilt.



Well for that matter Drewski. I personally think that Israel, as a nation, has no right to exist on stolen land. The Balfour Declaration did not authorize them the right to steal land. They just stole it (murdering a lot of British and Palestinians in the process) and declared their state.

Pragmatically, I'd be satisfied with a reversal of the status quo. I'd like to see Israel confined into the very areas they have forced the Palestinians into for 60 years. They could even keep their precious wall, and all the demolished buffer zones for their security.

They might find out they like it better.

Ray

I’m not Ray. Just trying to keep the issue here grounded in reality which is, that no matter who owned what or when the fact is that there are six million heavily armed Israelis who are not going to give up shit unless their security is assured. Now you can rant and rave about right and wrong but in the end, they couldn’t give a dam what you think or what Palestinians think if it means they have to give up one iota of security.

Ray

Strange, that has been the cornerstone of every peace negotiation that they have entered into with whatever entity happened to be in quasi charge of Palestine that day. And, they have given up land evicting settlers and such to much emotional display. I suppose that whomever was negotiating at Oslo, Camp David and Paris on those days was doing it under the table without the knowledge of the PM at the time.



Ray

I don’t support them Ray. Just as you come off like it. I’m merely explaining that no matter what historical perspective, UN resolutions against or for, published atrocities and human rights dictated decorum tells you, six million Israelis are not going to pick up and leave, nor are they going to turn over land without ensuring they have a 100% confidence that that land is not going to be used against them. Now, you, like many others here, can bark like a pack of hand-wringing-Peekinese to no end about how wrong it is and sure, it’s wrong but, it’s all wrong. Every stinking bit of it is wrong but, nothing will change the facts of what I have just stated.

Ray

Golly. In the here and now, Palestine denies Israel’s right to exist and your response is this claptrap. It’s obvious that you cannot deal with the reality that is on the ground now and view this as some sort of historical court of appeals where outside opinion matters to Israel to some miniscular degree.

Israel is not going to allow any compromise to it’s security to occur and, holds the power to enact that with. Furthermore, if any UN council resolution were to be attempted to be enforced, Israel could simply strangle the Palestinians to the same degree or worse necessitating Berlin style airdrops (which of course would be susceptible to Israeli Air defenses). As for using force from the outside, they could put up a deadly fight against any enemy (providing of course the US allowed a real army to land near enough to conduct any such operations.)

In short, Israel doesn’t have to do anything it does not wish to do.

Then again, Ray said they ‘stole that land’ so they have to move out – now. All six million of them.

Of course they don't.

Israel occupies Palestine just because it has had the military might to do so (thanks to US aid).



Glad to hear it Drewski, Neither do I.



I'm sure they won't give up a single inch without being forced to do so.

But there aren't 6 million armed Jews in Israel.

There are 7.2 million total inhabitants in Israel including over 2 million Arabs, plus a million other non-Jews. That leaves only 4 million Jews (most of whom are civilians).

I imagine that even by calling up all the reseerves, Israel could not field more than a million combatants.

The Jews are vastly outnumbered in Palestine.
It has been US supplied military hardware that has made the difference.



Ah but you said yourself that it boils down to force, remember? Palestine's theoretical denial of Israel's right to exist doesn't change anything? They can't do anything about it.

Israel, on the other hand, has very physically denied any possibility of a Palestinian state to exist by continually destroying its infrastructure and killing its leaders.

So when it comes to denying the other's right to exist, at least be consistent to your own Machiavellian standards.
Israel exists as a state with or without the Palestinian approval
.
But no Palestinian state exists because Israel very physically denies its right to exist.

So which side needs guarantees of security??????



Ahh But you're wrong here Dreski.
Israel never held the power to enact anything at all.
The US was always there supplying the weapons, the logistics and the funds.

But no more.
The US is now totally bankrupt.
And guess who holds the debt?

China, Russia, Japan, Europe, India, Korea,....
None of whom have any great love for Israel.

US policy will soon reflect that of its creditors.



You must be kidding Drewski.

Israel has never fought a battle against a well-equipped enemy.
Were it not for US support, a multinational force could take Israel in two or three days.

US support for Israel involved big bribes to US politicians funded by the massive aid packages the politicians supported.

But that's all gone with the economic wind.
"The times they are a-changing."
No more aid, no more bribes, no more support for Israel.



In short, without US aid. Israel will have to do all sorts of things it does not wish to, including submit to world pressure.

Ray

I agree and, doubt that they could field even close to a million.

Ray

As does Palestine. Israel could wipe them off the face of the earth at any time.

Ray

Israel does or else nothing is going to happen. I don't know how to make that more clearer to you. Hamas can keep on attacking until Israel just says the hell with it , builds their fence and goes back into Gaza now and then. This could go on forever like that.

I suppose that by then you and I will have moved off this thread with any luck.

Ray

And if that affects Israeli security then they won't play as nice and possibly may even enact what the left and Palestinians accuse them of and not even bother care about harming Palestinian civilians.

Ray



Got to hear your scenario on this one. Which multinational force is going to put their troops in harms way to save the Palestinians? I mean, whenever a real thing such as Darfur, Afghanistan, Iraq or Somalia comes up they send five thousand or so guys with rifles but here, they need aircraft, a navy, a staging point and ..... radioactive suits.

Please ...... got to hear it



Ray

Or build a wall and machine gun anybody crawling over or under it. Or, nuke any foreign Arab country that raises a weapon at them. Yes, I can see how you and all that think like you have this all under control, Israel won't last a minute.



In the meantime, I shall continue to support both sides by purchasing Arab oil and Israeli wine.

Ray,
You stated earlier on the forum the following: "Prior to the establishment by Zionists of the state of "Israel" in 1948, Jews have lived in peace in Palestine, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Turkey, Libya, Egypt, Algeria, Morocco and in nearly all Islamic countries for 2000 yrs. It was Zionism, not Judiasm or Islam that created the current state of ethnic hatred in Palestine."

Well, I have to disagree with you here on that one. The Jewish refugees that escaped the Muslim slaughters and immigrated to Israel from May 1948-Dec 1951 were as follows: 98% from Yemen; 93% from Iraq;87% from Libya. Too be more exact Morocco-30,750; Algeria-1500; Tunisia-13,100; Libya-30,500;Turkey-34,200; Egypt-16,500; Iraq-121,500; Iran-24,800;Yemen-45,200; Aden-3200. Them and the Holocaust survivors came to Israel. So now I'll post those so called peaceful Koranic verses that the Jews had live with. I'd say that these verses are more like a rallying point for Islamic lynch mobs in getting themselves ready for a Jew lynching session. And just maybe they are still around today being utilized for official Jihad business?

More teachings from the Religion of Peace™

Qur’an 8:12 “Your Lord inspired the angels with the message: ‘I will terrorize the unbelievers. Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and incapacitate them. Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes.”

Tabari VIII:179 “Abdallah bin Sa’d fled to Uthman, his brother, who after hiding him, finally surrendered him to the Prophet. Uthman asked for clemency. Muhammad did not respond, remaining silent for a long time. Muhammad explained, ‘By Allah, I kept silent so that one of you might go up to him and cut off his head!’ ”

Ishaq:369 “Thereupon Mas’ud leapt upon Sunayna, one of the Jewish merchants with whom his family had social and commercial relations and killed him. The Muslim’s brother complained, saying, ‘Why did you kill him? You have much fat in your belly from his charity.’ Mas’ud answered, ‘By Allah, had Muhammad ordered me to murder you, my brother, I would have cut off your head.’ Wherein the brother said, ‘Any religion that can bring you to this is indeed wonderful!’ And he accepted Islam.”

Ishaq:304/Tabari VII:62 “I cut off Abu Jahl’s head and brought it to the Messenger. ‘O Allah’s Prophet, this is the head of the enemy of Allah.’ Muhammad said, ‘Praise be to Allah.’ ”

Tabari VII:97/Ishaq:368 “We carried Ka’b’s head and brought it to Muhammad during the night. We saluted him as he stood praying and told him that we had slain Allah’s enemy. When he came out to us we cast Ashraf’s head before his feet. The Prophet praised Allah that the poet had been assassinated and complimented us on the good work we had done in Allah’s Cause. Our attack upon Allah’s enemy cast terror among the Jews, and there was no Jew in Medina who did not fear for his life.’ ”

Ishaq:464 “The Jews were made to come down, and Allah’s Messenger imprisoned them. Then the Prophet went out into the marketplace of Medina, and he had trenches dug in it. He sent for the Jewish men and had them beheaded in those trenches. They were brought out to him in batches. They numbered 800 to 900 boys and men.”

Tabari VIII:38 “The Messenger of Allah commanded that all of the Jewish men and boys who had reached puberty should be beheaded. Then the Prophet divided the wealth, wives, and children of the Banu Qurayza Jews among the Muslims.”

Tabari VIII:40 “The Messenger commanded that furrows should be dug in the ground for the Qurayza. Then he sat down. Ali and Zubayr began cutting off their heads in his presence.”

Tabari VIII:122/Ishaq:515 “The Prophet gave orders concerning Kinanah to Zubayr, saying, ‘Torture him until you root out and extract what he has. So Zubayr kindled a fire on Kinanah’s chest, twirling it with his firestick until Kinanah was near death. Then the Messenger gave him to Maslamah, who beheaded him.”

Callyba,

I wrote my forum posting to Ray and it is Ray who I will answer to. Please give him the courtesy and let him answer as I am calling him on his posting. He needs to answer to what he wrote. He appears to be rather educated and can speak for himself.

When I am calling you on a posting, I would not expect him to answer for you. It would be very discourteous and insulting to you to have someone else make up your words. So give him the same courtesy and a chance to answer in his own words.

That is why I specifically write a person's name in my postings to call their attention. Surely, you too are curious to see what he has to say? So let's wait and see. Be patient!!

Thank you.

What if the entire tale of the Jewish Diaspora is historically wrong?

And what if most modern Israelis aren't descended from the ancient Israelites at all, but are actually a mix of Europeans, North Africans and others who didn't "return" to the scrap of land we now call Israel and establish a new state following the attempt to exterminate them during World War II, but came in and forcefully displaced people whose ancestors had lived there for millennia?

That's the explosive thesis of When and How Was the Jewish People Invented?, a book by Tel Aviv University scholar Shlomo Zand (or Sand) that sent shockwaves across Israeli society when it was published last year. After 19 weeks on the Israeli best-seller list, the book is being translated into a dozen languages and will be published in the United States this year by Verso.

As Israeli journalist Tom Segev summarized, in a review of the book in Ha'aretz:

There never was a Jewish people, only a Jewish religion, and the exile also never happened -- hence there was no return. Zand rejects most of the stories of national-identity formation in the Bible, including the exodus from Egypt and, most satisfactorily, the horrors of the conquest under Joshua.

http://www.alternet.org/audits/122810/controversial_bestseller_shakes_the_foundation_of_the_israeli_state/

Barren this is where the whole discussion fall assunder IMO.
The point I was making in my original postng was I have read all the Threads in relation to this issue. I see no give on the Pro Israeli side of it.
I have seen people gang up on a Lady and continually insult her, when all she was doing was pointing out Human Rights Violations by the Israeli Government........These violations are a matter of facts..........

Re your statement above Israel currently occupy Land that they have ILLEGALLY seized. They are not allowed do this under any pretext and war is not a viable excuse for doing so. I dont think its good enought to say It does not make it right. They should be made to leave. Simple.

Why talk about thousands of years ago ? This only confuses the whole discussion IMO.
Israel have signed Treaties which they have thrown out because they are the biggest Bully on the block. They know they have had the backing of the US & Britain so they have been allowed get away with it.

They have consistently terrorised the Palestinian people and their treatment of them is nothing short of disgraceful.
It is to our shame that we have allowed this to happen.

This conflict will not be resolved unless both parties absolutely Commit to a long and lasting settlement. Basic Human Rights should be accorded the people of Palestine. They do not have that now.

And if the pro Israeli postings I have seen and read here are an indication of Israels stance on this matter I fear for the future of our planet............

It os my opinion that they need to be brought back into line and to show Maturity and Leadership so that All people can live in peace in that area.

I think peace is in their hands and I hope they grasp it.

JMO

ok Lillyland i'll wait as you wish but it dose not mean i cant answer as you wrote cus you posting to Ray.. the thread its open to everyone and without discourteous or insulting. its common in Cs when you agree or disagree of any forum even if it's not posting to you you have the rit to answer...or i'm wrong?

I'll wait just cus you asked so. but hope Ray answer quickly and i'm sure gonna give you the rit answer..Salam

There's plenty of "What Ifs" in this world. Tom Segev is a well known left wing commentator for the Haaretz newspaper for his "What If" commentaries. His views are highly controversial. He lives and works in the U.S. He has done a report on the 1000's of pages of internet and book rebuttals between Alan Dershowitz and Norman Finklestein regarding books they've each written about their own views on mideast issues and history.
As most people know, news sells well when there are controversial views as people love to read "the dirt." Much like people enjoy buying "The Enquirer" newspaper to see what kind of wild stuff someone is coming up with next. Makes interesting news I guess. Agree?

Tom Segev seems a long way from the National Enquirer style of reporter to me!

Segev's parents fled Nazi Germany in 1935 and settled in Palestine. His father was killed in the 1948 Arab-Israeli War. Segev studied history and political science at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem and earned a doctorate in history from Boston University in the 1970s. Segev is a columnist for Ha'aretz, an Israeli liberal newspaper, and has published several books. He is considered a New Historian, a group of left-wing Israeli historians who have begun a reexamination of the history of Israel and Zionism. In 2007, Segev was Helen Diller Family visiting professor at the Berkeley campus of the University of California. Segev was also a visiting professor of history at Northeastern University where he taught a seminar on the Holocaust.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Segev