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oops, got a bit carried away on that last post and forgot a couple of your points............


We as a soceity must take steps to stop the muggings, the damage and the killings on our streets.

Yes of course we must, it cannot be allowed to continue a second longer - but have a look at this and you will see that its considered by some people to be an efficient ( ) way of dealing with society.......... http://hiddenmurder.blogspot.com/2006/09/americas-darkest-secret.html

I really dont see why the whole thing needs to be such a problem really - a touch of altruism and kindness can go a long way...........

If this is what 2000 yrs of christianity has brought us to then its no wonder I seriously question that ethic...........

anyway, sorry to have mentioned religion.........

These Kids do respect others but their basis of 'respect' is quite different to that of many who have been brought up in different surroundings - for these kids, with their above mentioned self perceptions...........
its a very different story

Society isnt about us or them - its about how we can all make it through together - stuff thats mutually beneficial - and questioning how can we 'all' benefit...........

I guess, survival of the fittest is the biological, evolutionary imperative but this doesnt have to mean the exclusion of altruism - like any meme, it begins in the hearts and souls of the people and we have the choice... traditionally, leaders have led us down warlike paths and we have gone willingly cos we have been following that carrot - but what about stoppin a while and really looking at the carrot and seeing it for what it truly is - people control.................

Ladies & gentlemen.
May I still be permitted to address you as such.

I served with the RAF as an Aero Engine Fitter in the 1950's and early 60's on a development squadron for 3 years and 74 ( the Tigers) squadron for just over one year when we the first to have the Lightning Mk 1 (the fastst interceptor fighter in the world.

It was all British and had a quicker response tim than a Tornado 30 years later. The training and disciplines I learned included two years in the Fighter Command Band as a drummer (only achievable by audition) and have always held me in good stead thereafter, I received recognised qualifications at higher levels than GCSE's A levels and the crappy dumbed down NVQ's (Not Very Qualifieds) and on that basis alone I recommend such skilled service trade training to anyone.

I also feel qualified to say with some authority having done work for the MoD and private development because of it that while I respect the views expressed here, ALL the services NOW are aware of appropriate selection and suitability re- psychological and other factors and that includes me.
I was also before reirrement, a qualified Engineering trade Instructor which was also based partly on my military training and I invigilate at examinations.

What is also being overlooked possibly due to unawareness and younger people having not sampled themselves what I am about to say is that within the highly disciplined framework of military training (NOT basic squarebashing) there are many transferable skills and trades which can l be learned far quicker than can be done in Civvy street. -

They are being taught by far superior qualified instructors than most teachers in schools (I have two in the family) who are not allowed to teach so that military option should at least be considered, regardless of which trade or service one choses to apply for.

Repect to all
Mike

we have missed you in the forums,mike,a sensible man,down to earth and straightforward and always a gent,a dying breed

Yet what you describe still works best on a Volunteer Basis.
Imagine having unwilling Conscripts doing this kind of work.

OK - With respect - I do not know if your background was military at any time not that it is relevant -

But I DID mention that there are ways of sorting wheat out from chaff and I only speak from hands on experience inside and outside the service I chose at the time to volunteer for. (1954) aged 16 and a bit

Any unwilling Conscripts today can and would be soon discovered and *selected* for whatever tasks the service they entered saw fit, dependant on their attitudes and capabilities and if they show promise it is rewarded.

It would NOT be a bad thing to let them sample pride in themselves and being part of a team which is what the basic training disciplines and self-discipline teaches them. That is especially the case with most who would never at any time experienced any at school or dare I say it - at home.,

That incidentally is also the considered view of my great Nephew who unlike many of his school mates had a very good upbringing, entered the Army at 17 and is now a technician Signaller who served in Iraq in 2007, is going to Afghanistan soon, probably as a Corporal and he is only 21.

So I say that a stint in the services would give so many drop outs etc a chance that it cannot be dismissed!!

Mike Dennis Broadstairs Kent UK

Hello Mike.

Nice to see you back.
I did say in my last post on this subject that it would be my last. But you did bring up a very good point. Young people often complain that they have nothing to do. The armed forces can give them that oppertunity to find some trade which they could use in civi life. It as i have said before, will teach them respect and life's values.
I know from my roles as team leader and supervisor that to develop a person with low conferdence you must push them and show them that they can do the job.
It is the same with youngters. If we force them to learn new trades and show them that gang life is leading them nowhere then a life behide bars. Then it is our responsibility to do that.
Who knows they my like the armed forces and stay there. Even though we as a socitity has forced them into the forces, we then sit back and let them make the choices. Do they go back to gang life of do they make something of thier life's.

Hello Mike Nice to see you back

Thanks Trish,
I like U too
even if you have got better brains then me

Good elf lass

NOW question - Have you GOT that bloody degree yet

Best wishes

Mike
aka HIM @ Broadstairs and before anyone who can't navigate or read maps asks again - YES it DOES exsist

Awww, thanks for remembering that Mike, yes, I got it and I do the cap and gown stuff in about a month - I cant wait to get that piccie on my wall - I got the actual certificate last week so am going to buy a matching pair of frames which will go in pride of place on my wall a.s.a.p.

oh and by the way Mike, I dont have better brains than you by any stretch of the imagination - Im simply a product of a different generation and background.

I have started a detailed reply to your comments above but have just got busy so it may be an hour or two yet before I can finish it......

here we go Mike, as promised - bit late but sorry.........

Having welcomed you back Mike its now down to business

Fist off I really do take exception to your referring to those less fortunate than others as "chaff". Your above post seems to imply that because 'some' kids dont have the advantage of a "good upbringing" that they should then be eschewed by the rest of society. Simply by the misfortune of whom they were born to, you leap to the assumption that there is no worth in the existence of these lives.

Fortunately, society no longer reflects your way of dismissing the less fortunate and great moves are being made to change the lives of children born into disadvantaged sectors of society.

The main aim of such initiatives is to break the cycle of no hope, just this morning on the news we heard that all 11 yr olds are to be given a cookery book in preparation for compulsory cookery lessons - nutritional advice is very basic to brain development so I see this as an excellent move in the quest to bring lots of children into the fold as opposed to continuing to treat this as an 'us and them' society.

Fortunately, there are other proactive initiatives afoot too. Traditionally, literacy hasnt been taken too seriously for the lower classes and this is what we are seeing the results of in society currently - the last few years have been witness to great swathes of children leaving schools without even the barest of necessities in the three 'R's having been met. This has had a knock on effect on the self esteem and class consciousness of many generations and coupled with the loss of British industry, is a potentially dangerous situation - we are seeing dis-satisfaction bubbling over in the inner cities.

The above mentioned school leaving literacy skills isnt something new, the 'new' aspect to this disgrace of society is that people have actually started to complain about it en masse - this could be seen as the devil making work for idle hands or simply as a societal injustice which is long overdue for some serious input not just from academia but gvmt funding too - after all, its the result of generations of neglect which have led to this impasse.........

It has long been recognised that this bubbling over of dissatisfaction potentially, could have dire consequences on society. While we had the massive industrial base of yesteryear, the education system worked on providing workers for whichever industry was prevalent in any particular area and things worked fine on that basis for a couple of hundred years.

Now however, industry is gone, along with the sense' of direction and self worth for many in the inner cities - the symptoms of unrest which we have been seeing are a rise in the crime statistics and a general loss of respect, a bubbling up of anarchy if you like - and these issues are beyond the lot of any parents to quell. I had a very strict upbringing but it didnt stop me from seeing the wood for the trees and thankfully, millions more of my generation had the same views.

Progress is however, painfully slow.............

contd.

We now have many and varied initiatives in place in the education system to help the children who have fallen foul of countless decades of mismanagement of the British educational system - there has been much effort put into tackling the problems of underachieving and literacy problems, these days, specialist help is available for all those kids who begin to fall behind in any of the key stages but better than any of these is the fact that education has taken a massive leap forward in the recognition of the fact that skills for life need to be built into their modus operandi.

It may well have been the way of life in years gone by to consider the lower classes as useful cannon fodder but thankfully, things are evening out somewhat and that will never be the case again........

The education system has had a much needed update in the last few yrs which has brought it out of the dark days of of supremacy of empire and back into the reality of achieving what its supposed to do which is to provide a service for the people instead of for the government……….

Yep,I had to do Mandatory Service in the Swiss Forces,which still doesn't mean,that ANY Entity has a right to force me into a Service I am not prepared to do Voluntarily!
A forced Service is commonly known as Slavery,unless it is a Punishment for a Crime,in which case it is severely limited.
The Injuction against Involuntary Servitude(Slavery) holds good for ANY Entity,INCLUDING Governments.!

Oh dear Trish - So you've been brainwashed and want a Politically correct WAR by giving me an all Wind & piss politically correct crap lecture -

OK - Gloves off - I will keep this short - by a Report - Dennis style

1. Bigger and better people than you alleged intellectuals have tried to force an siiue with me and they came to know the following

A - I take NO prisoners if I start back at them.

B - Nobody at any level will ever succeed in bending my attiude especially when the SIB never could over a confidential issue when I was serving -

C - If you actually KNOW what the SIB is you just might be intelligent enough to *recognise* excactly what you are up against taking this one on !!

2. What was that degree you have ? - An ology, PPE or MBA (Manage Bugger all) or something to do with getting a job as a managerial parasite when you have been told its not necessary to know anything about what you are alleged to be able to manage or shoot your mouth off about ? -

3. I am NOT apologising -
3A - You have selectively and deliberately misquoted the relevant paragraph. - The wheat from chaff statement I made was IN CONTEXT specific to service language for people who have been there and KNOW EXACTLY what I meant IN THAT SPECIFIC PARAGRAPH and it clarified that if they show promise I said it IS rewarded, as another correspondent mentioned afterwards in agreement with whatv I said.

3B Like all socio-political claptrappers and parasitic big mouths you have not read his comments or incuded him in your lengthy diatribe against me !! -

4. NOTE This well - As I have all my life I will continue to refuse to watch my mouth OR LANGUAGE to anyone if I want to say my piece, let alone any politician from any party or the new Big Brother Thought Police - even if they have a degree most with real experience hands on would not bother to wipe our arse on and who think they pass square faeces !!

5. No further comment

Mike Dennis
Broadstairs Kent UK

Mike, my degree is in social sciences - a large part of which is relative to education - Im so sorry that all my words have engendered in you is anger - but luckily, my words are not just theory, I actually grew up on those streets, inner city manchester was my playground - where was yours?

1. As I thought - A wind & piss degree unworthy of tye paper its written on
2. I grew up on a Council Estate among mainly Welsh coal mining families but other very poor families without chips on their shouilders and under a far better BASIC educational system than exists now where it is reckoned that over 50% of Primary school children cannot read and write or communicate and understand what is expected of them at their Secondary school - thanks to do know your rghts wooly hat do-gooders and successive political interferenece across the whole educational system which has been dumbed down. I passed examinations stright pas or fail not in grades where even a d is still a pass !!!!

My basisc at 15 when we left with NO GCE as the school never covered it was still sufficient to allow me to get int the RAF to train as an Aero Engine Fitter for a career in Engineering when I came out. IF WE wanted to go in to the services and the same applied to voluntary entrants the army and navy.

I did what I wanted against my Fathers will who wanted me to be a bloody Postman all, my life and kept reminding me of it even when I was a senior development engineer and training instructor. My mother also never recognised it or that my music which was part time professional status would run alongside my main one to give me two incomes all through self endeavour and application rather than some I grew up wity whopissed all their vmoney away in pubs, never paid rent and bitched aboiut people like me being LUCKY so I know exactly whe5t I said and I refuse to cow tow to any bastard come what may and the parents of today are just as bad in mental atttude where they think spomeone else should take responsibility for their lives and they are worse than their disenfranchised offspring so as I can see it and observe it happening here today where the poor kids can have NO CHANCE I say exactly how I said whet I said on National service with NO RETRACTIONS

END OF - REALLY No further comment

Maybe you should stick to fitting engines then Mike as understanding people is obviously not your forte..........

Hmm-Interesting exchange of dialogue?-Respect to you Mike-cos you speak from experience-Trish,i suspect you are using your 'new found theories'to sustain your point(haven't quite worked that one out yet?)-but please remember the 'proven' adage:-"Qualifications only prove you have the ability to learn-NOT that you know your job inside out?"-Myself?-I was born a mere 100yards from Clapham Junction station-not with a silver spoon in my mouth(more of a wooden one!)-got myself expelled from school(very naughty boy!)-but did manage to impose a bit of self discipline on myself and scramble up the legal ladder to achieve where i am today(didnt call me black sheep of Chambers for nothing y'know?)-point being-ANY KID CAN DO IT_IF HE/SHE WANTS TO-and it is still my conviction that National Service provided that platform for many.

Thanks Beenabout ( I wish I could address you by your real name ) for that objective look at exactly what I said in the first place which wax ALL rtelative to the topic. I also illustrated what my great nephew thinks and he concure with the same as that last line of yours.

FWIW I trained a fitter/machinsist at Hilger & watts who stayed in the trade with them for 12 years after I had left and before he went bent read law at UNI and then became a legal thief (solicitor). BUT he specailises in Industrial law and gives me freebie advice so I sometimes have enuff savvy to keep a bit shtum if I could be in the upducky :-)

Takin the piss was already an art form he learned from me and he often gets a bollocking in court with a certain judge who part owns a Spit Mk 9 along with him and two otrher riuch buggers who come in the hangar and we let em play with primary school stuff like makin the tea and coffee or sweepin the floor for exercise as they sit on their arses and shine seats all day :-)

The Judge and my beak get a load of sarcasm (satire - BUT ONLY if you have a degree) from us and all the owners have had to do what I and three other ex erks (Airframe, Engines Electrician and Instruments) plus two licensed engineers told em to get her restored tested and airborne again. We all keep it up to maintain her at top notch or she would stay in the bloody hangar and rot, and that invlves didcipline and even their kids are involved now, but they are educated to RAF/Fleet Air Arm discilpline while they are near our *old lady* on fear of getting their arses kicked very hard (metaphorically) but the fact is they do not need any telling as they are so fascinated being able to touch the parts and the actual plane so iften that I wonder if schools are aware of what they are missing by NOT allowing metalwork and woodwork to be taught today by people with proper skills instead of CDT teachers and degree educated bloody amateurs who THINK tyhey can operate a mill and lathe but know F all .

So we * underlings* with less alleged intellectual capability than a social science pen pusher actually have their parets and them by the goolies metaphorically BUT - The thing is - All the lot of us sing from same hym sheets in reality and think like you do and I and even the kids who are working with us now say - ANY KID CAN GET THERE IF THEY TRY


MIke