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Whether you support Europe or not, it is the future at the moment. It seems that the issues of national and european identity are going to increase to be fought out in the public domain, through books, articles and popular culture, if not on the streets.

Do you think that nationalism can coexist with this new identity, or is the rise of the right, we see in many European countries, and ones on its borders, a dark sign of things to come?

just trying to get those brains cells working... ;)

I am too tired to discuss anything more serious than the cat that just shit on my shit, but for what its worth,

you got a very valid point when you point out that the rise of the nationalists, especially in the countries on the border (that aspire to join the union) is a sign of dark days to come

Creating another European UBER-IDENTITY?
Last time it was tried they called it "GLEICHSCHALTUNG"!
Got a really nice Ring to it?
Fervent Nationalism?
If that means resenting Brussels for issuing Edict after Edict and try Micromanaging everything,so be it!
Gonna take a few more Generations until the Nationalism of the Eastern European Countries has settled down to Patriotism,instead to All-Exclusionary Nationalism.
Doubt we're going to see it!
The European Political Union was really Unnecessary.
The European Problems could have been solved in a much more elegant Fashion,than creating another Political Monster.
Just my 5¢

Speaking purely historically, all empires in the history of mankind have failed because they were all dominated by one cultural faction.; one nation. The Greeks did not have an empire and were admirably successful in keeping the cohesion of their city state nations. The Romans ballsed it up. So did the central and south american empires, the British, the Dutch, the Danes, the Swedes, the Russians, the French all went down in exactly the same way. America is excelling everybody in this dismal record.

The 'right' are always inward looking and outwardly aggressive. But every moment some child is being born who in 18 years will have this type of mindcast.

In Europe (Western Europe) there is no such fervent nationalism except on the lunatic fringes. In the East there is a lot of it. But mind...these peoples have not had much experience of freedom, democracy or affluence. Sarkosy's attempt to be 'exclusive' will ruin the heart of the idea of a big united Europe. But the man is short and flashy and will be shortlived politically. (Yes, he is a of a type that is ever so predictable).

To come back to your original question about fervent nationalism versus an united Europe get to the basics...how it came into being after two great wars in the last century and innumerable conflicts in the 19th century. Steel and coal are the engines of war and that is how CECA was formed and later developed into the EEC and yet later into the EU. When the soviet union imploded the americans thought they had a chance to bring Europe to its heels. But the EU which had been languishing for years immediately saw the danger and then there was the Maastrict Treaty followed by the monetary union and so many other things that have made Europe a changed place altogether. All in a space of some 15 years.

Fervent nationalism does not stand by itself much in the way the sacks cant stand by themselves. Sacks have to be filled with something - nationalism similarly has to be stoked with something. After WW2 Americans whisked away big time Nazi criminals to work on their own projects. Today, now that Radovan Karadic has been captured, it is a bad day for Americans. They would like Europe to be in a state of siege and hopelessness. The general public is simply not aware how Europe's biggest enemy is the USA rather that their petty squabbles on national priorities.

I'm aware that these are a lot of rather sweeping statements but the point you raised is crucial - the danger to Europe doesnt lie in Europe itself but in the fact that America diminishing rapidly in its influence will seek 'false friendhips' with Europe and with their beastliness try to stoke up trouble for the EU. Turkey is an example: have you followed the double-talk of America on the question of Turkey joining the EU. It seems they want it; ulteriorly they want want problems for the EU.

On the whole, I dont see a dark horizon for the EU. But there are miles to go before the EU can chuck the Americans out of their bedrooms. The EU spends billions on the palestinians and then comes Israel with its bulldozers and destroy everything. Now that pair is making a case for an attack on Iran. Of course that way way Europe will again be inder pressure, huge pressure to take sides. The EU will not take the side of Iran obviously. They are militarily not capable. Mr. Sarkosy, however, has jumped into bed with the American led NATO.

In Europe you can express an opinion (excpt pro-nazi ones) with impunity. In America after 9/11 there was no way for people to talk freely about their country's foreign policy with being branded as a traitor. Only now do Americans have a feeling that they can speak freely.

Your subject was Europe but I have been on and on with a tirade against America. In the final analysis, the danger to the EU does not lie here in Europe but what America will manage to insinuate between EU neighbours.

P

The Europeans are going to do that quite well on their own!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!You have an Illness called "AMERIPHOBIA"!
It's TERMINAL I have been told.

Globalization cannot coexist with nationalism...

If the countries are to work as corporations, it's good for the market to have a representation from where the goods or components come from. It's marketing.


Answer the question

Yes, nationalism can coexist with European identity, meaning, no federation, let it be this way it's much more fun this way. If federation comes, then nationalism won't coexist with it... or even "better" there is no issue...

Whatever

Was that by any chance a Cat that did some Mousing at the European Parliament??
If so,don't be surprised it is Crapping all over. Hi Mano!

Interesting points.

I personally feel drawn to Europe culturally, but being a Libertarian at heart, I do worry about the centralization of power in Brussels and the deals struck there, which few people are aware of, or even at this point care.

Although I can see the nation as corporation as an argument and a current philosophy, it is one I would fight against as citizens then become merely consumers, and consumers have no responsibilties or purpose other than to conform and consume. I think this sells us all short.

To say that Europe has no problem with the right, is to ignore much of what is going on at the moment, particularly in Italy, and the right-wing coalition of euro mp's that has been formed with the assession states.

Although America is still a force in the world, it is on the wain, as its economic domination is being superseded by China and India respectively, and Russia seeking to take it's place again after it has found its new muscle with resources. I think America will increasingly become less of consideration in Europe.

As can nationalism can coexist with a meta-European identity, in many ways it already does. As an Englishman I already have a larger identity as British, or UK citizen. You would think that this would make the European identity easier to swallow for us Brits, but obviously not . The island mentality is still strong.

I mention the rise of the right, because it is becoming more and more public, and not just in the ex-soviet republics, and Russia its self, but in most western European nations too, just have a good hard look around you if you don't believe me..:wink:

We have been told that with the collapse of Communism that Ideology was dead, and that the battle of the great philosophies was over with capitalism, liberalism, and democracy the victors; but we can see that is not true. These do not give all the answers or even everything people want. The proof of this is that they are still being contested, Religious Ideology is strong again, obviously within the Muslim communities, but with Christianity in Africa.

Hmmm....I have been waffling again...but thanks for contributing....at least there is some better discussion here than most of the time in the international forums...

[quote=plinyelder]Speaking purely historically, all empires in the history of mankind have failed because they were all dominated by one cultural faction.; one nation. The Greeks did not have an empire and were admirably successful in keeping the cohesion of their city state nations. The Romans ballsed it up. So did the central and south american empires, the British, the Dutch, the Danes, the Swedes, the Russians, the French all went down in exactly the same way. America is excelling everybody in this dismal record.

The 'right' are always inward looking and outwardly aggressive. But every moment some child is being born who in 18 years will have this type of mindcast.

In Europe (Western Europe) there is no such fervent nationalism except on the lunatic fringes. In the East there is a lot of it. But mind...these peoples have not had much experience of freedom, democracy or affluence. Sarkosy's attempt to be 'exclusive' will ruin the heart of the idea of a big united Europe. But the man is short and flashy and will be shortlived politically. (Yes, he is a of a type that is ever so predictable).

To come back to your original question about fervent nationalism versus an united Europe get to the basics...how it came into being after two great wars in the last century and innumerable conflicts in the 19th century. Steel and coal are the engines of war and that is how CECA was formed and later developed into the EEC and yet later into the EU. When the soviet union imploded the americans thought they had a chance to bring Europe to its heels. But the EU which had been languishing for years immediately saw the danger and then there was the Maastrict Treaty followed by the monetary union and so many other things that have made Europe a changed place altogether. All in a space of some 15 years.

Fervent nationalism does not stand by itself much in the way the sacks cant stand by themselves. Sacks have to be filled with something - nationalism similarly has to be stoked with something. After WW2 Americans whisked away big time Nazi criminals to work on their own projects. Today, now that Radovan Karadic has been captured, it is a bad day for Americans. They would like Europe to be in a state of siege and hopelessness. The general public is simply not aware how Europe's biggest enemy is the USA rather that their petty squabbles on national priorities.

I'm aware that these are a lot of rather sweeping statements but the point you raised is crucial - the danger to Europe doesnt lie in Europe itself but in the fact that America diminishing rapidly in its influence will seek 'false friendhips' with Europe and with their beastliness try to stoke up trouble for the EU. Turkey is an example: have you followed the double-talk of America on the question of Turkey joining the EU. It seems they want it; ulteriorly they want want problems for the EU.

On the whole, I dont see a dark horizon for the EU. But there are miles to go before the EU can chuck the Americans out of their bedrooms. The EU spends billions on the palestinians and then comes Israel with its bulldozers and destroy everything. Now that pair is making a case for an attack on Iran. Of course that way way Europe will again be inder pressure, huge pressure to take sides. The EU will not take the side of Iran obviously. They are militarily not capable. Mr. Sarkosy, however, has jumped into bed with the American led NATO.

In Europe you can express an opinion (excpt pro-nazi ones) with impunity. In America after 9/11 there was no way for people to talk freely about their country's foreign policy with being branded as a traitor. Only now do Americans have a feeling that they can speak freely.

Your subject was Europe but I have been on and on with a tirade against America.

What a load of bullshit have you managed to write!! You yourself called it a tirade against Americans. Maybe you will slip again in their shit!!

I can see that some folks here have nothing really to say but make ad-hominem remarks against me. Well, what can one do about such people.?

A serious subject was introduced by DarkDreamer. I put in my bit. Then I was attacked personally! And these types imagine themselves as 'thinkers', probably even intellectuals!

All I can say to Conrad or Antcus is that if you dont have the wit to say anything relevant, have at least the judgement to remain silent.

p

You are hiding your Prejudices behind a Faceless Profile and Big Empty Words as as usual.

Sometimes speaking from your heart can be refreshing.

In my humble opinion nothing substantial has been said here at all. It is a debate taking shape and as such the topics has been lightly touched but none penetrated.

I for one see fervent nationalism as a dangerous thing, since it can lock up possible and important communication with other communities in small or large scale. But it is in itself not a threat to the function of the EU idea, and not at all a threat to Europe.

Basically the EU concept was not to create a super power in historical sense; it is a trading treaty which has now become more political and state like than it was first thought to be.

If we should point out a "danger" in the mechanism it would be that not all of the member states and their citizens are clear over what impact this have and will have in their control over their own territories. I for one am not clear over this. It creates a feeling of "big brother" when there really is no such thing.

And if this feeling gets a foot grip, then the nationalists may have their wood for the fire.

I failed to glue in my emot here

Ah! I can use smaller words if you agree to drop your silly capital letters. I promise...as well as crayons and a piece of paper to draw things that are too difficult for you to grasp.

How about it?

Deal?

I think that your right, not having the right infomation, or trusting the people at the helm, fuels the right wing nationalist factions. Even here in the UK we can see it with the increasing rise of the BNP in the face of adjusting to the new ecomomic pressures of being in the EU. i.e. worker migration, (see the old posts in the uk forum on this).

I think its just important to be aware of the movements that are out there, and highlighting the fact is one way of stopping it from getting a foot hold.

National identity already exists with European Identity, how strong that European identity is will always I think be up for debate..

Wonder if the INTERNATIONALISTS thunk it up all by themselves!!!!!!!

The two things co-exist. But when Brussels sends out its edicts that all coffee packages must look and be of the same weight and size, I can see why immense distrust of the EU organisations is generated. That is a form of totalitarianism. But this is quite different from free movement of workers issues. That is actually, in my opinion, the pith and marrow of the EU idea.

There is no way to contain the occasional spiking of right wing reaction. Not in a democracy at least.

I live in Luxembourg where 155 languages are soken and peoples live together in harmony. There is of course a crazy nazi type party and an equally meaningless communist party here. They are completely fringe lunatics and nobody gives them a thought. I have a French nephew who has been working on construction sites in Britain, cycling 48 km back and forth to work everyday. He is college educated but cant get a job in France. Why suddenly should the EU consensus oppose enlargement to the neighbours to the east and south? Of course it will cause dislocation and their will be many irate local people who have thought always that their particular job was their eternal prerogative?

I agree with El Silencio in essence but right wing reaction has so little chance of a resurgence. In fact that is precisely what would happen if the idea of the EU deviates from its original ideals.

You really have a problem with the internationalists don't you ,
just out of interest why?

Oh yes Conrad, i dont jhave a pretty nancy boy face like yours. Thus it's not on my profile.

As far as your views are concerned, they are really excecrable.

Golly,the 'IT' knows EXCREMENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!