Connecting Singles^® EU Forums100% Free Online Dating

I am not sure that nationalism and European Identity have to fight each other, that is why I posed it as a question. I agree that nationalism and national identity can be seen as separate things, ts just that many people do not see it as separate. Identities are in my view, all constructed and reinforced by public opinion, but they can always be contested...

I don't agree that Nationalism is something that is confined to central and Eastern Europe or the fringes, it is on the rise. Now whether people think this is a good thing or not, is up for debate...:)

I think your right, it is all about multiple identities. Which we have all had all along, our family, our home town, our county or district, our country...this is just one more on top, but it does seem to cause people many problems as I think this thread shows...

I agree with strong central goverment being worrysome. The political union in the EU is however not that, nor similar to the Austrian-Hungarian empire, in that its power lies with the member states - nothing can be made into EU laws without all member states agreeing, or in some cases a majority of them.

It is very easy to start saying that 'Brussels does this' and 'Brussels decides that' - what we need to remember is that the people in Brussels making the final decisions on all this are the representatives from all the EU governments. Thus the EU is not governed by a central body in the traditional sense.

The European Union is in fact unique in the world, in the way it is organized - simultaneously an inter-national and supra-national entity.

I think this raises the question, that may be at the heart of it all. We all see the idea of a European Identity as something different, some a federal agreement between nations, some as a super government, another level of bureaucracy above us, and some as a new reich....

I think that is one of the things as people who live in europe..us europeans need to sort out, what does it mean to be European, or what do we want it to mean, over and above being, English, Spainish, french, Lithuanian, Polish, etc..(apologise for not completing the whole list its late.. )

National identities and nationalism are definitely separate, especially if viewed under a political spectrum. The EU is an economic union and needs a political arm so to serve this specific function. If for some reason the EU,which means the representatives of the respective member-states would ever decide to undermine their own power and authority by allowing a super-institution to substitute them then you'd have powers within the member countries that would use national identity as a political stronghold. But there's no reason for such a thing to happen and I know of no politician that would abdicate from power


Nationalism has a growing momentum in Eastern & Central Europe because regimes have fallen, countries were separated to their ingredient nations etc. I suppose it's a necessary part, something like a "raison d'etre" for those countries to stand, even to the minds of their own citizens. But evolution is everywhere - even in politics and they'll go forward when this "identity" need will be covered. As for the "West", I think we've seen some of it come and pass by (remember the "Republikaner"?) and those people will always have their marginal participation in the political field. They never carried a coherent political proposal anyway and even if they take a small step up (usually from social unrest, that is to come) they won't be able to keep it.

Well,I sure hope,because sooner or later CH has to make a Decision on it.
But what I have seen so far from the EU,it's Business as Usual.

This is a very sophisticated Thread, but in the end of it the desire to being a a member of a small "tribe" will always be in conflict to being part of something bigger. Every country has faced that challenge (it wasn't until 1000 AD that there was a King of Ireland accepted by all the tribes). Go watch an inter-county football game and you'll see that tribalism hasn't gone very far away.

The forum may have changed (ie being part of a European Union) but human behaviour hasn't.

GM

Welcome to our "sophisticated" thread GM..

Some might call it pretensious.. but I think there is space for all in the forums...

Your right of course about tribalism, and there is the joke that rival tribes of football fans will join with each other to fight the others.. or police ..or whoever...depending on who they hate more...lol

What I think is interesting, is that European Identity is a level above the immediate ones, and is being constructed by us all at the moment, i.e. "what it means to be European" ..but there I go again being pretensious...

Very interesting all this ......... Coming from South Africa where if you flew the National Flag you could likely get a petrol bomb thrown thru your house windows .... I am finding here in CH something quite unique in Pride of ones country. I have never in my life seen the National Flag so used ....... Most everyone flies a Swiss flag from their apartment or house - doormats have the Swiss Flag emblem on them, Swiss flag handbags are sold and used by locals, Swiss flag pins are always available to purchase, slip-slops in red with the white cross are available from most shops ......on the Rhine boats fly the Flag! Everywhere you go you see the Swiss Flag!

And then you get the Cantonal Flag ...... and then you get your village flag!

On the Swiss NATIONAL Day all three flags are flown!... that is the day of Great Celebration .....where even the paper serviettes are red with the white cross, the food is red and white, the ice cubes are white (in the shape of a cross) and float in the red wine!... Kids paint their faces in the red/white, and lots of "fun" folk wear red/white.

THIS is what Pride in ones country is all about!

At Christmas time, on my Christmas stall, I sell shopping bags painted with the three emblems - Swiss, Cantonal, & village ........ and most everyone buys one! .... simple patriotism!

So ... every country needs to develop this mindset in their people - simple! Its called creating an Identity & Loyalty to ones country.

Although maybe adding another Tier of "EU" must be a bit of a problem? ... Oh well, maybe then we`ll have FOUR flags? Oh gee, that means I gotta have FIVE ... including a small SA one!

I'm still looking for a Bahamian Flag.
Flying those Flags means Respect to ones Heritage and flying the Flag of a Neighboring Country also means one is respecting ones Neighbors or maybe even a Country far away.
But what I have seen of the EU since I have been back doesn't encourage me to Cheer for that Union.Nope

BRAVO! I think you have captured the essence of the problem. And in so few words. "Brevity is the sould of wit" as said WS.

Yes, human behaviour is to seek to be part of something - a couple, a family, a group, a clan, a society, etc. Already here we can see different layers. Then add bigger entities: a village, a town, a city, a region, a country, a state, a group of countries with close co-operation, a continent...

Being part of these bigger entities does not necessarily cause conflict with the smaller, closer ones. I think humans identify with different groups in different ways, and often some of the groups are encapsulated in the bigger ones.

For example, an Englishman would most likely not have a conflict with the fact that he is also a Brit (someone try to tell him that he's Welsh - that's another story!...).

In this part of the world we have called ourselves Europeans for a very long time (well - the Brits have tended to forget that they are part of Europe, but that's another story too ) - and it probably has not had that much meaning to us, until the EU came along.

Over the past years, as the EU has expanded, the borders practically taken away within, more and more things becoming easier to do between countries of the EU, a new sense of belonging is shaping - and this is what will be very interesting to see how far it can go. Being European now means a different thing than 50 years ago.

From what I've seen it has not taken away anything from the national identities within the EU - on the contrary, it has often raised the national identity to the forefront.

The fascinating thing is that all these different feelings of and views on identity and belonging can exist side by side - and even flourish because of it.

I believe that the EU can actually help solve political problems within 'national' boundaries in member states; e.g. treating Northern ireland as a region of the EU can help the conflict of interest between two member states (the republic of Ireland and the UK of GB & NI).

Maybe the EU could help with the basque separaist problem - Basques in France and Basques in Spain might feel they have a greater degree of autonomy if their cultural heritage is helped by direct central EU funding that bypasses Madrid or Paris. (lots of EU funding already goes directly to Wales and avoids the control of Westminster).

Mind you, the recent by-election in Scotland instigated an editorial with the heading:

'Will Brown be the last Prime Minister of the UK?' as it is conceivable that Scotland will have a referendum to find out if they wish to become an independent country.......

My own solution to the 'safe' management of a world made up of the EU and half a dozen other regional economic/political blocs is a Managerial Cybernetic one, but that would take several hundred thousand words to explain (although beautifully 'simple' in its essential practicality).

You're back!!!!

Shhhhhhhhhhh!

Don't appear happy or I'll get banned again!



Maybe it's a mistake or a dream and I'll wake up in the morning and I won'r be able to post..........

anyway, good to 'see' you and hope you are having a good summer and what's me coming back got to do with fervant European nationalism?

Yes, we men in CS want more and more and more EU countries so that we can meet more and more EU ladies and become more and more 'Europeanised' - yes?

(I'm sure there's a Euro pianist joke there somewhere!)

Euro

welcome back

Thanks!

Now please return to the topic of how we can truly integrate in a fervently nationalistic yet ultimately romantic way!

Add my welcome back Robert.

A part of me is sort of English, part Irish, part NW of England, part London, part Spanish, part European....and that still doesn,t say who or what I am ! Doesn,t even scratch the surface. I travelled widely in the uk and was brought up subject to am enormously deep culture, so I am also a little bit of all parts of the uk and anywhere else I have been. So, who or what am I ?

Well I am a three dimensional human being (tho I can also be a bit of an animal ). Now, where does that leave us ?

All I can say to this very complex issue is that I personally espouse the the european idea, it,s better than beating the holy shit out of each other. How many millions died senselessly in two world wars ? Millions.
What we have got is not perfect, not by a long chalk, but a little like a relationship, as long as we keep talking and working to make it work for all of us we,ll be ok. My 5cents worth.