Self Defense or Murder?

Just how far do we go to protect ourselves from severe bodily injury and or murder? Specially if it happens in your own domicile?

This question come to mind as I am reading the dominant news on the fatal shooting of two teenagers that burglarized the 65 year old peaceful man from Little Falls Minnesota.

Facts: Thanksgiving day, 2012, two teenagers, an 18 year woman and a 17 year old boy burglarized a home of a 65 year old retiree in his home for the second time. These kids were later found to have been responsible in many such acts from the same place.

The homeowner claimed he was so terrorized by such burglars after he found out that one of his gun was stolen on the last one. These kids were found to be responsible on the same acts in the same town for so many times. Why they were not in jail? Beats the hell out of me.

This time he was more vigilant and armed himself ready for his defense if it happens again. And it did.

Verdict: Guilty. Was it justified for the man to kill those young kids? What would you have done?

Thank you so much for your comments.
Post Comment

Comments (86)

In the United States, you are allowed to protect yourself if you feel threatened by any means necessary. This applies in the case of a home invasion, as the laws are very strict regarding residential burglaries. This would not apply if it were outside of the home, or even on your porch. A person will get 2-3 times more prison time invading a home than they would robbing a business.
lindsy applause hug hey you, hope all is well, and this topic, actually was aired on dr.phill a month ago, different though, 4 boys broke into a home on a week day afternoon, and the owner killed one, point blank, he said on self defense, and the boys had no weapons, one youth dead, 3 teenagers in jail for life.....and the home owner is free, and the boys never pulled a weapon or had a gun, go figure the justice system sigh
It is an injustice that should, and probably will be, appealed in a higher court of law where it will most likely be overturned. One does not have to actually be threatened, but only FEEL that they are threatened inside the home. That is the distinction.
Go figure my dear Butterflies and that is what is boggling me because here is a retired peaceful man and subject to such an act and now found guilty? Wouldn't this an encouragement to young kids who would do the same thing? As if it is alright to do what they did? And then on top of that who is to tell when you feel threatened and not? When you feel the imminence of danger to your very life?
Dedo, exactly, my point and when would we know if our life is caused to cease for such an act?
In the paper today mentioned about such an appeal just to spend more so much money on such a litigation. The fact of the matter is there is a crime involved and since there is not a specific protocol on how you actually be threatened by such an act, wouldn't be the government burden to be specific on the law itself?
dear friend;In Australia Police teaching people to give a space to burglars to escape from your home,not to hurm them or chase them in any way... Ones it was on TV that man who has chased the burgler at his own home had to pay compensation to young burgler who broke his legs by runing on the roof as owner chased him with bat which makes owner of his home responsible for his injury rolling on the floor laughing and insurace company was naturaly involved conversing I think consuming drugs takes mind from people desperate to get more money in 'easy way' and it's too many of them already in prison so government is probably looking for the ways how to rehabilitate them in society by checking up they're blode ones per week to make shore they're not on drugs or they go back to prison ...If drugs is not so available we would get rid of from many problems in society. confused Long time ago when I lived in the appartment one late summer afternoon me and my neighbour hear noise from outiside and we went out to check what is it, as we know that few people lived on the rent went on holiday to visit they're parents outside Melbourne.Young ladie in her 20 said she is new tenent and asked us if anyone has ledder to hep her go in as her other flat mates put keys somewhere where she can't find it;so another naigbour come in and broth the ledders and she asked man to hold on to ledders to make safe for her to go up true the balcony and my neigbour who was single man enjoyed the view of her short skirt legs while holding the ledders laugh Another naigbour come too and called the people who lived there to vryhfiy her story and find out she is burgler rolling on the floor laughing rolling on the floor laughing
were these kids armed and was it necessarily to eliminate both?
Courtrooms have an amazing ability to get to the truth. Once this appeals, a good judge will know whether or not he actually felt threatened. The law is clear as long as the person is honest.
LJ
Listed in your facts you mention.
"These kids were later found to have been responsible in many such acts from the same place."

OBJECTIONNNNNNNNN professor

These facts were only brought to light after the fact and are inadmissible as convicting circumstances. Due to the the fact of the defendants ignorance on the matters Proposed laugh cheers
That is an example of a very intent crime about to happen my dear Enigma and yes the same thing here in the country.

Thanks for the contribution..
Dedo, the only weapon they found was the tool they used to break the window to get it as was in the first time. And they were the same kids.
Of course candy. The question, that is hanging over my head is this. Was it because he was more prepared than that being expected and had himself armed made the jury so sympathetic to the very act of the burglary itself?
Yes you are right Non. There were no criminal proceedings going on against them to prove that they were truly committing the same crime, that I can read anywhere in the story.

But for purposes of the clarity of the judgement, they didn't put any weight on that either.
I just rememember another 'funny episode' when I went to visit my friend in her appartment and while using her bathroom I've suddenly noticed young man who tried to open window to enter true bathroom w and I've ask him;"What is his doing?" and burgler replayed;"Is not any of your buisnis" doh uh oh rolling on the floor laughing
If anyone wants to read the current story please Type Byron Smith, and go to PioneerPress.com I hope one would check the story and help me out because I can't quite make up my mind as to whether it should be a guilty verdict..
Butterflies, yes I think that if it is a plain thieving and it is not done in the middle of the night and in your house, I would try to fight back without killing but when would you think it that way, I don't know.
Now since this happened in the middle of the night, I believe when you are attacked at a different time, would it make it any lesser of your thinking for the defense?

I don't know, I think this jury is truly out of their mind.

I do feel sorry for the teenagers and wished it didn't happen, but the truth is that the poor old man, who is to claim he didn't feel threatened?
Hello, here in Canada, excessive force in defending ones self, is against the law. As for those burglers breaking in , they didn't need to have a gun, to injure, terrorize a victim, during a burglary. It shows the disrespect they had for people, especially an older gentleman. I happen to have ms, have to use a cane, I have my problems with and can identify with the gentleman. I m 55, but at times with a disability, I feel a lot older, I sympathize with the older folks. Hope I made sense on that one,
Now that maybe the case Candy, but check this out. Here is a perfectly peaceful man living in his house with a license gun for his protection, now just because the age is an issue that make it any different? Now should we set aside laws for young kids then? Yet they are perfectly capable of such a crime?
UNFORTUNATELY! The man was wrong by the code of law. I am speaking of California law but it seems to be the same in Minnesota.

The law states that you can defend yourself in the manner you are being attacked.

If those kids would have brandished a gun then the home owner could have shot them. But not in the back if they were fleeing.

Justified? It's kinda hard to say "Yes" because some kids will not learn from this episode. And a future victim of such a crime as this could be punished as an aggressor.
Ito! thanks. Our law is very specific subject to how you feel when you are threatened. It does say: You have the right to kill for your defense and severe bodily threatened. Now who will measure your level of threat?
It probably shouldn't make a difference, but it does. Prosecuting minors is a completely different story.
I am too, very torn on this one Ed. Here if I were living all by myself or even with someone but here is an intruder and not knowing what he is capable with including harming and killing me, why not?

I would do anything to protect me, and sad to say but being dead first wouldn't have protected me, would it?
Follow up, I had my home, robbed and cleaned out several yrs back.After looking at the damage, vandalism, and theft, I was somewhat shaken.One could only imagine what would have happened to me if I was home at that time. And I was one of those types of fellows , that doesn't get rattled or scared, Well I was shaken and stirred,
Follow up, I had my home, robbed and cleaned out several yrs back.After looking at the damage, vandalism, and theft, I was somewhat shaken.One could only imagine what would have happened to me if I was home at that time. And I was one of those types of fellows , that doesn't get rattled or scared, Well I was shaken and stirred,
Ed, I am considering for the proposal of such a leniency an act that can actually lead to a more grievous act. When do we know that a plain burglary could go bad and involved taking lives?

Should have the kids, forewarned the old man and say, I am only here to steal and not to kill?
Haven't watched that yet Butter and I will try to go today and watch it, but I know that when our peace is compromised, it makes us think nothing but our survival.
Now that is a variable of view to be taken into account Ito. Your strength and your disposition to being shaken. But what if you are like me, very much conditioned on terror of such an act. Would have I been justified to commit the most that makes me feel safe?
If the older gentleman was robbed previously, robbers didn't come back to say hello, or shake hands.Crimes usually escalate in severity, not go the other way.
lind
That is a tough one...but I was a victim of an attempted break in...and I was very frightened by it...I think the old man has the right to defend himself...the guests were uninvited and given the situation...being frightened and lets say developing a stress related illness...he would be better off with councelling and therapy...waste of time to jail an old man...people who act in crime in my opinion, suffer the concequences...how else do they learn?...
Hi Lindsey! Such is a great tragedy! IMO Weappons should be forbidden for private people, as many can't handle them.
Exactly my point my dear friend. What messages are we giving out there to teenagers who has no business in doing this?

That it is okay for them to commit these crimes and yet it is not okay for one to defend oneself on such an aggression?
Ito that is a very clear cut trigger of the key element to weigh in the circumstances. On top of that they stole his gun on the previous burglary.

Having thought of it as a precaution to the degree and or severity of the crime committed.

I like that kind of thinking Ito and why on earth all these members of the jury didn't see that?
There was a near identical case in the UK a few years back, the farmer involved would have got off it's thought if he hadn't shot one of the burglars in the back, clearly showing he was running away, there was much sympathy for the farmer though.
Zman and LJ
Even Ireland had a case of a farmer who shot an intruder dead a while back

Embedded image from another site
Lou, yes, I don't want anyone to define what is safe for me. I am in my peaceful abode. Very settled with the protection of the law given me. Why should anyone tell me how I feel when I am threatened or not. They came into my house. How can I differentiate the level of danger for me to protect myself?
Understand Z but there is a new part of the story that just got revealed at the moment.

It said in the paper that the old man, having experienced this once before, indeed taped and recorded the whole act and it starts from the way he waited for them to show up and which they did and killed them in the process..

Now why would this tilt to the premeditation is just not quite clear to me.
Non 42 indeed..
Post Comment - Let others know what you think about this Blog.
Meet the Author of this Blog
lindsyjonesonline today!

lindsyjones

unknown, California, USA

Not looking, thanks for your visit.

I am here for the blogs and poetry writing. I learn a lot from the dynamics of the discussions. Part of my lifetime learning.

I am forever grateful with this gift called, LIFE. After all what I've been thro [read more]