Liberalism: A Misunderstood term ( Archived) (85)

Jan 13, 2011 10:53 PM CST Liberalism: A Misunderstood term
Galactic_bodhi
Galactic_bodhiGalactic_bodhiAkron, Ohio USA609 Threads 1 Polls 9,196 Posts
In response to: Liberalism (from the Latin liberalis, "of freedom")is the belief in the importance of individual liberty and equal rights. Liberals espouse a wide array of views depending on their understanding of these principles, but most liberals support such fundamental ideas as constitutions, liberal democracy, free and fair elections, human rights, capitalism, free trade, and the separation of church and state. These ideas are widely accepted, even by political groups that do not openly profess a liberal ideological orientation. Liberalism encompasses several intellectual trends and traditions, but the dominant variants are classical liberalism, which became popular in the eighteenth century, and social liberalism, which became popular in the twentieth century.

Liberalism first became a powerful force in the Age of Enlightenment, rejecting several foundational assumptions that dominated most earlier theories of government, such as hereditary status, established religion, absolute monarchy, and the Divine Right of Kings. The early liberal thinker John Locke, who is often credited for the creation of liberalism as a distinct philosophical tradition, employed the concept of natural rights and the social contract to argue that the rule of law should replace absolutism in government, that rulers were subject to the consent of the governed, and that private individuals had a fundamental right to life, liberty, and property. - wiki


To be a liberal in America these days is to suffer, according to several media pundits *cough*, "mental illness".

But by the above definition, to be American is to be a Liberal. Do we not believe in the equality of humanity, the pursuit of happiness, and have we not fought numerous wars for the sake of "Liberalism" as defined above? Are we not an Enlightened Republic?

The last few days have me wondering.

Conservatives often throw "Liberal" around as a hateful epithet, but do they even know what they are talking about? Do they truly wish to return to a time where the Divine Right of Kings is what determines everyone's destiny? Or is it all just part of the vitriol of the current political landscape?

Sure, Liberty is a bad thing, when somebody else has it and you want more of it. But the cost of Liberty is blood. Let us find common ground in the blood spilt this weekend in realizing that we are all Liberals, or we can return to Hobbes' "Bellum omnium contra omnes" and forget this social contract we call America.
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Jan 13, 2011 10:57 PM CST Liberalism: A Misunderstood term
sasyecats
sasyecatssasyecatsCarroll, Iowa USA15 Threads 3 Polls 1,263 Posts
Galactic_bodhi: To be a liberal in America these days is to suffer, according to several media pundits *cough*, "mental illness".

But by the above definition, to be American is to be a Liberal. Do we not believe in the equality of humanity, the pursuit of happiness, and have we not fought numerous wars for the sake of "Liberalism" as defined above? Are we not an Enlightened Republic?

The last few days have me wondering.

Conservatives often throw "Liberal" around as a hateful epithet, but do they even know what they are talking about? Do they truly wish to return to a time where the Divine Right of Kings is what determines everyone's destiny? Or is it all just part of the vitriol of the current political landscape?

Sure, Liberty is a bad thing, when somebody else has it and you want more of it. But the cost of Liberty is blood. Let us find common ground in the blood spilt this weekend in realizing that we are all Liberals, or we can return to Hobbes' "Bellum omnium contra omnes" and forget this social contract we call America.


thumbs up thumbs up
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Jan 14, 2011 2:44 AM CST Liberalism: A Misunderstood term
Galactic_bodhi: I support a more reasoned dialogue, as has always been your way, T. Thanks for adding to the quality of my thread with a reasoned and researched position, as has always been your style.

As you know, I wouldn't actually consider myself a liberal according to today's standards because I believe in personal responsibility. I'm pointing out the philological origins of a word that many people today misunderstand and use as some sort of label that has stigma often undeserved. There is a vast difference between my centrist libertarian views and what most people would consider a modern social liberal. If Goldwater is my political role model in so many ways, than how could I possibly support an FDR style nanny-state?

On a more pointed note, I'm amazed at how political the Gifford et al tragedy has become. I have my views of all parties involved and none of them are very charitable. However I will keep them to myself as there have been enough vitriolic agendas spouted by everyone in this country lately that I shall not add to it. To try to politicize such atrocity from either angle is just reprehensible.
thumbs up thumbs up thumbs up
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Jan 14, 2011 8:44 AM CST Liberalism: A Misunderstood term
ttom500
ttom500ttom500St. Cloud, Florida USA30 Threads 5 Polls 10,523 Posts
Galactic_bodhi: I support a more reasoned dialogue, as has always been your way, T. Thanks for adding to the quality of my thread with a reasoned and researched position, as has always been your style.

As you know, I wouldn't actually consider myself a liberal according to today's standards because I believe in personal responsibility. I'm pointing out the philological origins of a word that many people today misunderstand and use as some sort of label that has stigma often undeserved. There is a vast difference between my centrist libertarian views and what most people would consider a modern social liberal. If Goldwater is my political role model in so many ways, than how could I possibly support an FDR style nanny-state?

On a more pointed note, I'm amazed at how political the Gifford et al tragedy has become. I have my views of all parties involved and none of them are very charitable. However I will keep them to myself as there have been enough vitriolic agendas spouted by everyone in this country lately that I shall not add to it. To try to politicize such atrocity from either angle is just reprehensible.


handshake
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Jan 14, 2011 9:13 AM CST Liberalism: A Misunderstood term
leigh2154
leigh2154leigh2154Crossville, Tennessee USA5 Threads 6,408 Posts
Liberalism:

Basic concept for liberalism is the "role" of governing is to "regulate" and "oversee" economy. Liberalism dictates through "social" programs focused on helping the poor and middle class.

Basic concept for conservatism is the "role" of governing is to "regulate" and "oversee" morality.
Conservatism dictates through authority and a believe in a "pull your own weight" philosophy.

As times passes, these two "very different" concepts become more and more blended which is the primary cause of the confusion many feel when trying to choose or support a "party".

Today, the differences between the two is either clear or muddied, depending on current events and which party holds office.professor
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Jan 14, 2011 9:15 AM CST Liberalism: A Misunderstood term
trish123
trish123trish123Macclesfield, Cheshire, England UK177 Threads 4 Polls 13,724 Posts
"Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders.

That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger.

It works the same in any country."


Written by Goering in 1946 and apparently as true today as it ever was..........
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Jan 14, 2011 9:17 AM CST Liberalism: A Misunderstood term
sasyecats
sasyecatssasyecatsCarroll, Iowa USA15 Threads 3 Polls 1,263 Posts
leigh2154: Liberalism:

Basic concept for liberalism is the "role" of governing is to "regulate" and "oversee" economy. Liberalism dictates through "social" programs focused on helping the poor and middle class.

Basic concept for conservatism is the "role" of governing is to "regulate" and "oversee" morality.
Conservatism dictates through authority and a believe in a "pull your own weight" philosophy.

As times passes, these two "very different" concepts become more and more blended which is the primary cause of the confusion many feel when trying to choose or support a "party".

Today, the differences between the two is either clear or muddied, depending on current events and which party holds office.


thumbs up thumbs up
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Jan 14, 2011 9:17 AM CST Liberalism: A Misunderstood term
sasyecats
sasyecatssasyecatsCarroll, Iowa USA15 Threads 3 Polls 1,263 Posts
trish123: "Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders.

That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger.

It works the same in any country." Written by Goering in 1946 and apparently as true today as it ever was..........


thumbs up thumbs up
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Jan 14, 2011 9:20 AM CST Liberalism: A Misunderstood term


The fundamental difference between private action and governmental action—a difference thoroughly ignored and evaded today—lies in the fact that a government holds a monopoly on the legal use of physical force. It has to hold such a monopoly, since it is the agent of restraining and combating the use of force; and for that very same reason, its actions have to be rigidly defined, delimited and circumscribed; no touch of whim or caprice should be permitted in its performance; it should be an impersonal robot, with the laws as its only motive power. If a society is to be free, its government has to be controlled.

Under a proper social system, a private individual is legally free to take any action he pleases (so long as he does not violate the rights of others), while a government official is bound by law in his every official act. A private individual may do anything except that which is legally forbidden; a government official may do nothing except that which is legally permitted.

This is the means of subordinating “might” to “right.” This is the American concept of “a government of laws and not of men.”

The Virtue of Selfishness “The Nature of Government
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Jan 14, 2011 9:23 AM CST Liberalism: A Misunderstood term
Actractorguy
ActractorguyActractorguyTims Ford Lake, Tennessee USA26 Threads 7 Polls 2,089 Posts
Conrad73: http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/government.html

The fundamental difference between private action and governmental action—a difference thoroughly ignored and evaded today—lies in the fact that a government holds a monopoly on the legal use of physical force. It has to hold such a monopoly, since it is the agent of restraining and combating the use of force; and for that very same reason, its actions have to be rigidly defined, delimited and circumscribed; no touch of whim or caprice should be permitted in its performance; it should be an impersonal robot, with the laws as its only motive power. If a society is to be free, its government has to be controlled.

Under a proper social system, a private individual is legally free to take any action he pleases (so long as he does not violate the rights of others), while a government official is bound by law in his every official act. A private individual may do anything except that which is legally forbidden; a government official may do nothing except that which is legally permitted.

This is the means of subordinating “might” to “right.” This is the American concept of “a government of laws and not of men.”

The Virtue of Selfishness “The Nature of Government


Here here

Good Morning Conrad.
coffee2
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Jan 14, 2011 9:24 AM CST Liberalism: A Misunderstood term
Actractorguy: Here here

Good Morning Conrad.
Good Afternoon!grin
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Jan 14, 2011 9:53 AM CST Liberalism: A Misunderstood term
trish123
trish123trish123Macclesfield, Cheshire, England UK177 Threads 4 Polls 13,724 Posts
Conrad73: a government official may do nothing except that which is legally permitted.


Yeah but when did that ever stop em bending the rules - thats what this whole mess is about - corruption in high places is the norm and if it is "legally permitted" then the law in question was written and passed by other rule benders.......

Oh to live in a perfect world laugh sigh
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Jan 14, 2011 10:34 AM CST Liberalism: A Misunderstood term
gardenhackle
gardenhacklegardenhackleStratford, Connecticut USA55 Threads 9 Polls 2,067 Posts
The word "liberal" in today's political landscape is positioned around 180 degrees from the word "liberal" in the classic liberalism of John Locke. Today's liberals and their robin hood politics have nothing in common with John Locke's liberalism. John Locke's theory embraced capitalism while today's liberals villify it. The core of modern liberalism isn't liberalism at all, but socialism and John Locke would have found the notion of a welfare state abhorrent. Liberty is a good thing. Modern liberalism, however, would strip us of it rather than bestow it.
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Jan 14, 2011 10:42 AM CST Liberalism: A Misunderstood term
gardenhackle: The word "liberal" in today's political landscape is positioned around 180 degrees from the word "liberal" in the classic liberalism of John Locke. Today's liberals and their robin hood politics have nothing in common with John Locke's liberalism. John Locke's theory embraced capitalism while today's liberals villify it. The core of modern liberalism isn't liberalism at all, but socialism and John Locke would have found the notion of a welfare state abhorrent. Liberty is a good thing. Modern liberalism, however, would strip us of it rather than bestow it.
thumbs up Exactly!
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Jan 14, 2011 10:47 AM CST Liberalism: A Misunderstood term
leigh2154
leigh2154leigh2154Crossville, Tennessee USA5 Threads 6,408 Posts
gardenhackle: The word "liberal" in today's political landscape is positioned around 180 degrees from the word "liberal" in the classic liberalism of John Locke. Today's liberals and their robin hood politics have nothing in common with John Locke's liberalism. John Locke's theory embraced capitalism while today's liberals villify it. The core of modern liberalism isn't liberalism at all, but socialism and John Locke would have found the notion of a welfare state abhorrent. Liberty is a good thing. Modern liberalism, however, would strip us of it rather than bestow it.


Outstanding post!!!thumbs up thumbs up thumbs up












cheers
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Jan 14, 2011 10:52 AM CST Liberalism: A Misunderstood term
FreddyFudpucker
FreddyFudpuckerFreddyFudpuckerObamaville, Indiana USA10,179 Posts
gardenhackle: The word "liberal" in today's political landscape is positioned around 180 degrees from the word "liberal" in the classic liberalism of John Locke. Today's liberals and their robin hood politics have nothing in common with John Locke's liberalism. John Locke's theory embraced capitalism while today's liberals villify it. The core of modern liberalism isn't liberalism at all, but socialism and John Locke would have found the notion of a welfare state abhorrent. Liberty is a good thing. Modern liberalism, however, would strip us of it rather than bestow it.
thumbs up
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Jan 14, 2011 10:53 AM CST Liberalism: A Misunderstood term
FreddyFudpucker
FreddyFudpuckerFreddyFudpuckerObamaville, Indiana USA10,179 Posts
gardenhackle: The word "liberal" in today's political landscape is positioned around 180 degrees from the word "liberal" in the classic liberalism of John Locke. Today's liberals and their robin hood politics have nothing in common with John Locke's liberalism. John Locke's theory embraced capitalism while today's liberals villify it. The core of modern liberalism isn't liberalism at all, but socialism and John Locke would have found the notion of a welfare state abhorrent. Liberty is a good thing. Modern liberalism, however, would strip us of it rather than bestow it.



You should have been around to participate in Dude's intellectual threads. They were enlightening. grin
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Jan 14, 2011 10:57 AM CST Liberalism: A Misunderstood term
FreddyFudpucker
FreddyFudpuckerFreddyFudpuckerObamaville, Indiana USA10,179 Posts
leigh2154: Very disenchanting!


<sarcasm abounds> laugh
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Jan 14, 2011 11:00 AM CST Liberalism: A Misunderstood term
time4fun4u
time4fun4utime4fun4uAlicante, Valencia Spain18 Threads 1 Polls 10,066 Posts
leigh2154: I try.
Behind the shed in 5 mins? grin devil
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Jan 14, 2011 11:02 AM CST Liberalism: A Misunderstood term
gardenhackle
gardenhacklegardenhackleStratford, Connecticut USA55 Threads 9 Polls 2,067 Posts
leigh2154: Outstanding post!!!


Thanks. cheers
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