Fear vs Fearless ( Archived) (75)

Feb 4, 2012 1:08 PM CST Fear vs Fearless
olaix
olaixolaixValhalla, Nordland Norway52 Threads 6 Polls 1,119 Posts
BB_snickers: I'd certainly welcome your particular and personal understanding of fear if you'd care to share.


Well, fear is there for a reason, right? personally I manage some moments to realize fear is created in a vacuum of how I see security, or pleasure.

Picturing true love certainly leads to a lot of agony lol, because I don't have it, and who knows - does she exist? but it was all a fantasy...

It is a big and taxing subject, and what is wrong with one premise is right with another. Not sure I'll be tagging along - but self study (opposed to analysis) IS interesting, and rewarding - so thumbs up thumbs up
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Feb 4, 2012 1:27 PM CST Fear vs Fearless
olaix
olaixolaixValhalla, Nordland Norway52 Threads 6 Polls 1,119 Posts
Perhaps wrong to add pleasure to fear, but the principle of pleasure and pain is similar. Knowing it is one thing, seeing it is quite different.
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Feb 4, 2012 2:28 PM CST Fear vs Fearless
single4ever
single4eversingle4everCalgary, Alberta Canada1,109 Posts
BB_snickers: A number of psychologists contend, and I tend to agree that people are moved more by fear then by opportunity. Instead of grasping moments of opportunity we let fear manage our response and run away, freeze or act out in some way that further complicates that opportunity.

The belief as I understand it is based on the fact that we are born alone. Then comes that moment in youth when self awareness happens and the realization that we are alone and nothing can ever alter that. Face it, we're alone and there is no togetherness that will ever change that fact.

Some psychologists believe that this one single fear, is what follows us through life creating all manner of problem behaviors when one hasn't discharged or released the emotion of alone, lonely, sad. This fear manifests in relationships in a number of ways, such as feeling that someone won't support you, or has hurt you and may again, or that they are selfish, jerks, etc. This is the fear of being alone, projecting on others.

They don't suggest that partnering is bad but that partnering without dealing with that basic fear results in the inability to see opportunity for love and joy and take action fearlessly to manifest it. Essentially that fear blinds one to experiences and keeps us in a holding pattern of repetitious fear based relationship.


Hmm, do you suppose this fear is what causes people to become hermits? I have to agree with you that in a relationship I do have the feeling that the man I am with won't support me as I have yet to meet one that has and this has closed me off to even trying. Now that being said; I don't feel alone though. Yes, I am not in a relationship but if I am feeling alone; I can contact friends, family, or even come on here to talk to people. So, is this fear of being alone, lonely, sad just related just to romantic relationships or is this also affecting family and friend relationships?
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Feb 4, 2012 2:42 PM CST Fear vs Fearless
BB_snickers
BB_snickersBB_snickersNarnia, Ontario Canada56 Threads 3,755 Posts
olaix: Perhaps wrong to add pleasure to fear, but the principle of pleasure and pain is similar. Knowing it is one thing, seeing it is quite different.



They can be added, there's fear of both pain and pleasure. However it would be my contention that both are extensions or derivative of the 'alone' emotion. It just manifests in different ways for some people. cheers
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Feb 4, 2012 3:14 PM CST Fear vs Fearless
bodleing
bodleingbodleingGreater Manchester, England UK238 Threads 8 Polls 13,810 Posts
BB_snickers: Well that certainly clears up your quoted post for me. In context of your explanation, it makes more sense to me now.

I think I am in a similar position after being pummelled with traumas and unreliable people in the last six months to find out how truly on my own I am. Of course that's an emotional chain, processed by my own floundering perception, messing with what I know to be intellectual truth.

I'm not discounting the value of people in my life; because this all speaks to the seemingly contrary interdependent nature of humans trying to solve the problem of alone, emotional. Independent vs dependent is best served by interdependence me thinks, balancing duality so to speak.

If you believe as I do that emotion/action precedes thought (aka-awareness) then you get the sense that not only are we alone, we are perhaps more importantly not in control of anything.

I wonder if absolute enlightenment is when one is able to bridge or maybe just close the gap between our emotional experience and our post-awareness of it.

The issue of morality/immorality intrigues me as well since the basic nature of most life is to replicate itself. Everything from genes to memes and temes do this without conscious moral compunction, yet being aware of moral/immoral, changes the drive to replicate or at least puts replication to the test of that dual nature. Life seems to have it's own built in checks and balances.


Emotion/action, particularly the two combined is almost always a form of projection. Jung reminds us of the ubiquity of projection...

"The general psychological reason for projection is always an activated unconscious that seeks expression.
Strictly speaking, projection is never made...it happens, it is simply there."
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Feb 4, 2012 3:23 PM CST Fear vs Fearless
BB_snickers
BB_snickersBB_snickersNarnia, Ontario Canada56 Threads 3,755 Posts
single4ever: Hmm, do you suppose this fear is what causes people to become hermits?


Not necessarily. In the manner you suggest it might be the case for someone who is running from something to avoid contact. But there's also those who run to this hermit existence to experience little to no contact and live independently of others. Fear can be the driving mechanism for both but so can a sense of adventure in the case of someone wanting to be a hermit. That person would be more fearless as I perceive it. It's a fine line to distinguish between running from and running to.

single4ever:
I have to agree with you that in a relationship I do have the feeling that the man I am with won't support me as I have yet to meet one that has and this has closed me off to even trying. Now that being said; I don't feel alone though. Yes, I am not in a relationship but if I am feeling alone; I can contact friends, family, or even come on here to talk to people. So, is this fear of being alone, lonely, sad just related just to romantic relationships or is this also affecting family and friend relationships?


It's not so much about a relationship S4. Many people experience 'alone' feelings both in and out of relationships. The majority of us try to solve the alone feelings by partnering with others and whether they're friends, family or lovers isn't at issue.

It's not about being independent either, it's about addressing that childhood awareness that we really are alone in this world. No one can feel for us, much less address those feelings to proper discharge. Having friends and family may appear to solve your 'alone' feelings but it's really a superficial solution that doesn't address the root cause, or that emotion that arose when we first realized that we were alone.

You could, as a child be in your mothers arms and still have had that awareness of being alone. It's more about the relationship you have with that basic and original fear, than any people you try to attach it to.

And we do try to attach it to others as blame or reasoning, if we don't deal with the original emotion. (you feel you lack support from men in general and that gets projected onto 'all men' so you avoid relationships with them) This is the kind of thing that becomes something like rejection, alienation, or suspicion, or many other extended emotions. Feeling unloved is just an extended emotional response to that feeling of being alone. Fear is winning the battle in other words and beginning to compound itself and your life. (assuming that you genuinely would like to have a partner/lover)

Makes sense?

wave
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Feb 4, 2012 3:29 PM CST Fear vs Fearless
BB_snickers
BB_snickersBB_snickersNarnia, Ontario Canada56 Threads 3,755 Posts
venusenvy: It wouldnt be the first time I was hanging around I also wonder how much ego is attached to fear?


Ego is essentially self or I.

"I" am alone" is the ego in realization of it's detached position in the world, or life.

They (ego or I - with fear) are for all intents and purposes in-detachable in any absolute sense. At least that would be my assessment for humans.
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Feb 4, 2012 3:34 PM CST Fear vs Fearless
olaix
olaixolaixValhalla, Nordland Norway52 Threads 6 Polls 1,119 Posts
BB_snickers: They can be added, there's fear of both pain and pleasure. However it would be my contention that both are extensions or derivative of the 'alone' emotion. It just manifests in different ways for some people.


There is fear for pleasure, or fear for the pain? So, indirectly, there is.

I think from the alone feeling, if one was truly sincere and honest with oneself, would lead to sorrow, which would lead to love and compassion, since we're in the same boat - not fear. Although, I guess people who only care about themselves would be afraid.
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Feb 4, 2012 3:44 PM CST Fear vs Fearless
BB_snickers
BB_snickersBB_snickersNarnia, Ontario Canada56 Threads 3,755 Posts
bodleing: Emotion/action, particularly the two combined is almost always a form of projection. Jung reminds us of the ubiquity of projection...

"The general psychological reason for projection is always an activated unconscious that seeks expression.
Strictly speaking, projection is never made...it happens, it is simply there."


Did you perchance read a post I made some time ago regarding scientific proof that emotion/action comes three tenths of second before we become aware of it, Gra?

Not sure if I still have the link. hmmm It was a website dealing with Determinism and Free Will, the Illusion of Choice.

A number of neurological texts support the scientific finding as well. People have long believed that life is primarily psycho somatic (thought before action) when in truth life is quite the opposite. Of course believing that it's psycho somatic lends credence to the illusion that we're in control of this when at best we are little more than observers of our not so distant past.

cool
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Feb 4, 2012 3:52 PM CST Fear vs Fearless
BB_snickers
BB_snickersBB_snickersNarnia, Ontario Canada56 Threads 3,755 Posts
olaix: There is fear for pleasure, or fear for the pain? So, indirectly, there is.

I think from the alone feeling, if one was truly sincere and honest with oneself, would lead to sorrow, which would lead to love and compassion, since we're in the same boat - not fear. Although, I guess people who only care about themselves would be afraid.


Sometimes some people do fear pleasure.

Yes, "alone, lonely, sad", What it leads to, is something entropically unique to us all. I personally think it's more about awareness than honesty.

Caring about the self isn't a bad thing, in fact it's paramount. As some have stated, it's part of one's basic survival instinct, even if that too is an illusion.
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Feb 4, 2012 3:52 PM CST Fear vs Fearless
olaix
olaixolaixValhalla, Nordland Norway52 Threads 6 Polls 1,119 Posts
If there was no "I", what could be alone? nothing. What could get hurt? What could get upset? nothing. Easy to check if you have a ego, if you don't, there's really nothing to be afraid of, other than danger. So, by the qualities of love, it seems it's the only way around it. Do you want love? then it is also the ego talking, wanting.. grin tricky

I don't see how the ego is detached, it is identified and attached with everything you account as "me". While asking "what am I", not accepting anything of what you're identifying yourself with, wont leave you with many answers
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Feb 4, 2012 5:19 PM CST Fear vs Fearless
joyaepace
joyaepacejoyaepaceGalway, Ireland11 Threads 2 Polls 958 Posts
BB_snickers: A number of psychologists contend, and I tend to agree that people are moved more by fear then by opportunity. Instead of grasping moments of opportunity we let fear manage our response and run away, freeze or act out in some way that further complicates that opportunity.

The belief as I understand it is based on the fact that we are born alone. Then comes that moment in youth when self awareness happens and the realization that we are alone and nothing can ever alter that. Face it, we're alone and there is no togetherness that will ever change that fact.

Some psychologists believe that this one single fear, is what follows us through life creating all manner of problem behaviors when one hasn't discharged or released the emotion of alone, lonely, sad. This fear manifests in relationships in a number of ways, such as feeling that someone won't support you, or has hurt you and may again, or that they are selfish, jerks, etc. This is the fear of being alone, projecting on others.

They don't suggest that partnering is bad but that partnering without dealing with that basic fear results in the inability to see opportunity for love and joy and take action fearlessly to manifest it. Essentially that fear blinds one to experiences and keeps us in a holding pattern of repetitious fear based relationship failures.

What do you think?

Who wants to play with my junk? OK, playing with my junk isn't part of the theory but the question stands cos I'm like that.


Yes, it is fear and anxiety that makes life difficult. Just hard to know what fear exactly it is. To me it is fear to make wrong decisions because it could make my life worse, so I have difficulties to decide anything of importance. But contrary to common beliefs, you don't lose your fears just facing them. They probably have too deep roots.
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Feb 4, 2012 5:25 PM CST Fear vs Fearless
single4ever
single4eversingle4everCalgary, Alberta Canada1,109 Posts
Thanks BB for your insight and yes what you said makes sense. I mentioned the Hermit thing as my brother is very much like one since his divorce. Now he does phone and may visit with me a couple times in a year (he only lives 18 km away), he makes the visit short and has to be home. So, is it fair to say he is running away from something?

I suppose in a way I am running away too. I don't give much thought to being alone actually but I do wonder why people think that attaching themselves in a romantic relationship will take away that loneliness if they haven't addressed that childhood fear of being lonely. So, that being said does anyone really get over the fear of alone or do we just run to others to eliviate that fear?
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Feb 4, 2012 5:32 PM CST Fear vs Fearless
single4ever
single4eversingle4everCalgary, Alberta Canada1,109 Posts
BB Snickers; I hope I am not being a pain with all the questions but you have peaked my curiousity with this question. Good question by the way. I am just trying to get some perspective on this issue.
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Feb 4, 2012 5:38 PM CST Fear vs Fearless
olaix
olaixolaixValhalla, Nordland Norway52 Threads 6 Polls 1,119 Posts
Seems the fundamental psychological fear is to not have a ego, aka to be no thing. If one are some thing, one fear being less.
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Feb 4, 2012 7:23 PM CST Fear vs Fearless
mustbnutz
mustbnutzmustbnutzKingman, Arizona USA33 Threads 5 Polls 3,730 Posts
BB_snickers: A number of psychologists contend, and I tend to agree that people are moved more by fear then by opportunity. Instead of grasping moments of opportunity we let fear manage our response and run away, freeze or act out in some way that further complicates that opportunity.

The belief as I understand it is based on the fact that we are born alone. Then comes that moment in youth when self awareness happens and the realization that we are alone and nothing can ever alter that. Face it, we're alone and there is no togetherness that will ever change that fact.

Some psychologists believe that this one single fear, is what follows us through life creating all manner of problem behaviors when one hasn't discharged or released the emotion of alone, lonely, sad. This fear manifests in relationships in a number of ways, such as feeling that someone won't support you, or has hurt you and may again, or that they are selfish, jerks, etc. This is the fear of being alone, projecting on others.

They don't suggest that partnering is bad but that partnering without dealing with that basic fear results in the inability to see opportunity for love and joy and take action fearlessly to manifest it. Essentially that fear blinds one to experiences and keeps us in a holding pattern of repetitious fear based relationship failures.

What do you think?

Who wants to play with my junk? OK, playing with my junk isn't part of the theory but the question stands cos I'm like that.




I believe that portion of it.
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Feb 4, 2012 7:43 PM CST Fear vs Fearless
BB_snickers
BB_snickersBB_snickersNarnia, Ontario Canada56 Threads 3,755 Posts
joyaepace: Yes, it is fear and anxiety that makes life difficult. Just hard to know what fear exactly it is. To me it is fear to make wrong decisions because it could make my life worse, so I have difficulties to decide anything of importance. But contrary to common beliefs, you don't lose your fears just facing them. They probably have too deep roots.


Fear is you joy. (thats my theory and I'm sticking to it) Like love and everything else, it's all about you. While most psychologists will tell you that you have some control over this, they are ignoring physics and science, or, are otherwise unaware that we are more likely controlled biologically, genetically and chemically as well as energetically than we are by thoughts which are essentially only post facto observations of our recent actions.

It is deeply rooted. Fear is an emotion. Fear by itself deserves no thought; but as conscious humans we observe the emotion, that fearful feeling then begin to attach thoughts and words to quantify or qualify the emotion. Observations of the emotion or our state of being.

I think as you say, you don't rid yourself of fear but you do experience a different state of being when you face them repeatedly. so one can approach a state of being more fearless than fearful. Still fear is what is driving the ship I think.
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Feb 4, 2012 7:46 PM CST Fear vs Fearless
BB_snickers
BB_snickersBB_snickersNarnia, Ontario Canada56 Threads 3,755 Posts
olaix: If there was no "I", what could be alone? nothing. What could get hurt? What could get upset? nothing. Easy to check if you have a ego, if you don't, there's really nothing to be afraid of, other than danger. So, by the qualities of love, it seems it's the only way around it. Do you want love? then it is also the ego talking, wanting.. tricky

I don't see how the ego is detached, it is identified and attached with everything you account as "me". While asking "what am I", not accepting anything of what you're identifying yourself with, wont leave you with many answers


I think you've misread me about detached ego. I don't think I said that. confused
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Feb 4, 2012 7:49 PM CST Fear vs Fearless
venusenvy
venusenvyvenusenvyCalgary, Alberta Canada27 Threads 20,003 Posts
BB_snickers: we are biochemically incompatible in the moment.


O you have gas? grin
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Feb 4, 2012 8:11 PM CST Fear vs Fearless
joyaepace
joyaepacejoyaepaceGalway, Ireland11 Threads 2 Polls 958 Posts
BB_snickers: Fear is you joy. (thats my theory and I'm sticking to it) Like love and everything else, it's all about you. While most psychologists will tell you that you have some control over this, they are ignoring physics and science, or, are otherwise unaware that we are more likely controlled biologically, genetically and chemically as well as energetically than we are by thoughts which are essentially only post facto observations of our recent actions.

It is deeply rooted. Fear is an emotion. Fear by itself deserves no thought; but as conscious humans we observe the emotion, that fearful feeling then begin to attach thoughts and words to quantify or qualify the emotion. Observations of the emotion or our state of being.

I think as you say, you don't rid yourself of fear but you do experience a different state of being when you face them repeatedly. so one can approach a state of being more fearless than fearful. Still fear is what is driving the ship I think.


I read somewhere that the conscious mind has no control over the ancient part of brain, amygdala. That is where all fears reside. Being instinctive and primitive it would not listen to arguments of reason, but rather repeat the old fear again and again. Some people have more active amygdala than other and thus more anxious. So, you just live with that.
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