The Illusion Of Free Will (181)
BB_snickers: An Article taken from The Illusion of Choice- Determinism and Free Will.
The Subconscious
The vast majority of all the processing our brain does is subconscious; we ultimately have no idea why we prefer particular actions over others. It seems to be that we are observers more than we are the conscious agents of choice. We become aware of what our brains are thinking but don't have any free will to pre-emptively alter it.
“Nisbett and Wilson (1977) go so far as to claim that all psychological activities (including social behaviour) are governed by processes of which we are unaware. Emotions can occur with rapid onset, through automatic appraisal, with little awareness and with involuntary changes in expression and physiology; indeed, we often experience emotions as happening to us rather than chosen by us.
Apart from Freud .. probably the most outspoken person advocate of the view that the person is not free is Skinner. In Beyond Freedom and Dignity (1971) he argues that behavioural freedom is an illusion. Just as Freud believed that freedom is an illusion to the extent that we are unaware of the unconscious causes of our feelings and behaviours, so Skinner claimed that it is only because the causes of human behaviour are often hidden from us in the environment, that the myth or illusion of free will survives.”
-Psychology: "The Science of Mind and Behaviour" by Richard Gross (1996)8
There certainly appears to be a lot of evidence supporting our definite lack of control over our lives. If you believe this, who or what do think is running things and why? Or is it pure chance, random operators, controlled chaos?
If you don't believe the points in the above article, how do you support the claim that we are ultimately in control over our lives.
The Subconscious
The vast majority of all the processing our brain does is subconscious; we ultimately have no idea why we prefer particular actions over others. It seems to be that we are observers more than we are the conscious agents of choice. We become aware of what our brains are thinking but don't have any free will to pre-emptively alter it.
“Nisbett and Wilson (1977) go so far as to claim that all psychological activities (including social behaviour) are governed by processes of which we are unaware. Emotions can occur with rapid onset, through automatic appraisal, with little awareness and with involuntary changes in expression and physiology; indeed, we often experience emotions as happening to us rather than chosen by us.
Apart from Freud .. probably the most outspoken person advocate of the view that the person is not free is Skinner. In Beyond Freedom and Dignity (1971) he argues that behavioural freedom is an illusion. Just as Freud believed that freedom is an illusion to the extent that we are unaware of the unconscious causes of our feelings and behaviours, so Skinner claimed that it is only because the causes of human behaviour are often hidden from us in the environment, that the myth or illusion of free will survives.”
-Psychology: "The Science of Mind and Behaviour" by Richard Gross (1996)8
There certainly appears to be a lot of evidence supporting our definite lack of control over our lives. If you believe this, who or what do think is running things and why? Or is it pure chance, random operators, controlled chaos?
If you don't believe the points in the above article, how do you support the claim that we are ultimately in control over our lives.
Well if I believed we are all in a puppet show I'd have a great excuse to get away with everything I felt like. I have certainly been aware of behaviors and behavior patterns in myself a long time. Behaviors that at one time I did not realize. I became an observer of myself sometimes in my mid twenties. I also know therefor that there is likely more in me that I'm not aware of.
I do not agree that I do not have the power to alter or get to the root of these behaviors and make another choice. By observing and accepting myself I have been able to use the free will I have and make changes or do away with the behaviors altogether.
I have found, for me, that a lot of these behaviors were caused faulty perceptions and thinking.
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Dadude62: Well if I believed we are all in a puppet show I'd have a great excuse to get away with everything I felt like. I have certainly been aware of behaviors and behavior patterns in myself a long time. Behaviors that at one time I did not realize. I became an observer of myself sometimes in my mid twenties. I also know therefor that there is likely more in me that I'm not aware of.
I do not agree that I do not have the power to alter or get to the root of these behaviors and make another choice. By observing and accepting myself I have been able to use the free will I have and make changes or do away with the behaviors altogether.
I have found, for me, that a lot of these behaviors were caused faulty perceptions and thinking.
I do not agree that I do not have the power to alter or get to the root of these behaviors and make another choice. By observing and accepting myself I have been able to use the free will I have and make changes or do away with the behaviors altogether.
I have found, for me, that a lot of these behaviors were caused faulty perceptions and thinking.
I think a lot of people have the same thought process; but this would be my question in light of what you've said. Assuming that you have free will; why would there be a need to change behaviors, as if previous behaviour had been wrong or faulty? (in fact you stated that it was faulty)
Almost apologizing for your past? Wouldn't free will presume that any behaviour that gets you what you want at the time, is always right, every time and not subject to any need for change, much less an apology or sense of error? The fact that change it is an 'after thought' validates what the article claims, that you were not in control of the original event.
We just 'think' we are. Observation of self is a post-action position at best, me thinks.
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usually the ''little me'' commands the ''myself'' this is the reason because we deal with frights and doubts. yes difficult accepting this but isnot hard to manage . The power of your subconscious mind is a good book ,read it if you like this stuff
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BB_snickers: An Article taken from The Illusion of Choice- Determinism and Free Will.
The Subconscious
The vast majority of all the processing our brain does is subconscious; we ultimately have no idea why we prefer particular actions over others. It seems to be that we are observers more than we are the conscious agents of choice. We become aware of what our brains are thinking but don't have any free will to pre-emptively alter it.
“Nisbett and Wilson (1977) go so far as to claim that all psychological activities (including social behaviour) are governed by processes of which we are unaware. Emotions can occur with rapid onset, through automatic appraisal, with little awareness and with involuntary changes in expression and physiology; indeed, we often experience emotions as happening to us rather than chosen by us.
Apart from Freud .. probably the most outspoken person advocate of the view that the person is not free is Skinner. In Beyond Freedom and Dignity (1971) he argues that behavioural freedom is an illusion. Just as Freud believed that freedom is an illusion to the extent that we are unaware of the unconscious causes of our feelings and behaviours, so Skinner claimed that it is only because the causes of human behaviour are often hidden from us in the environment, that the myth or illusion of free will survives.”
-Psychology: "The Science of Mind and Behaviour" by Richard Gross (1996)8
There certainly appears to be a lot of evidence supporting our definite lack of control over our lives. If you believe this, who or what do think is running things and why? Or is it pure chance, random operators, controlled chaos?
If you don't believe the points in the above article, how do you support the claim that we are ultimately in control over our lives.
The Subconscious
The vast majority of all the processing our brain does is subconscious; we ultimately have no idea why we prefer particular actions over others. It seems to be that we are observers more than we are the conscious agents of choice. We become aware of what our brains are thinking but don't have any free will to pre-emptively alter it.
“Nisbett and Wilson (1977) go so far as to claim that all psychological activities (including social behaviour) are governed by processes of which we are unaware. Emotions can occur with rapid onset, through automatic appraisal, with little awareness and with involuntary changes in expression and physiology; indeed, we often experience emotions as happening to us rather than chosen by us.
Apart from Freud .. probably the most outspoken person advocate of the view that the person is not free is Skinner. In Beyond Freedom and Dignity (1971) he argues that behavioural freedom is an illusion. Just as Freud believed that freedom is an illusion to the extent that we are unaware of the unconscious causes of our feelings and behaviours, so Skinner claimed that it is only because the causes of human behaviour are often hidden from us in the environment, that the myth or illusion of free will survives.”
-Psychology: "The Science of Mind and Behaviour" by Richard Gross (1996)8
There certainly appears to be a lot of evidence supporting our definite lack of control over our lives. If you believe this, who or what do think is running things and why? Or is it pure chance, random operators, controlled chaos?
If you don't believe the points in the above article, how do you support the claim that we are ultimately in control over our lives.
The only things that are pure chance is where, and more importantly, when we were born. Beyond this, whether you're a rebel or a conformer, you rebel or conform to the same thing, the age itself. We are all the products of our time.
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minnie50: usually the ''little me'' commands the ''myself'' this is the reason because we deal with frights and doubts. yes difficult accepting this but isnot hard to manage . The power of your subconscious mind is a good book ,read it if you like this stuff
Thanks minnie. The article suggests that there are more processes and forces at work in the manifestation of me; but I do have the 'unproven inclination' to think that minnie-me has more control than I do.
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RedSpaceDuck: The only things that are pure chance is where, and more importantly, when we were born. Beyond this, whether you're a rebel or a conformer, you rebel or conform to the same thing, the age itself. We are all the products of our time.
That would be an argument 'for', that is along the lines of collective consciousness. I would suspect that collective and self consciousness have similar provings as to free will, or lack thereof.
The article claims more importantly that whether you're a conformist or rebel isn't something you actually chose by will, that something else, other forces putting you/us collectively, in that position.
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BB_snickers: I think a lot of people have the same thought process; but this would be my question in light of what you've said. Assuming that you have free will; why would there be a need to change behaviors, as if previous behaviour had been wrong or faulty? (in fact you stated that it was faulty)
Almost apologizing for your past? Wouldn't free will presume that any behaviour that gets you what you want at the time, is always right, every time and not subject to any need for change, much less an apology or sense of error? The fact that change it is an 'after thought' validates what the article claims, that you were not in control of the original event.
We just 'think' we are. Observation of self is a post-action position at best, me thinks.
Almost apologizing for your past? Wouldn't free will presume that any behaviour that gets you what you want at the time, is always right, every time and not subject to any need for change, much less an apology or sense of error? The fact that change it is an 'after thought' validates what the article claims, that you were not in control of the original event.
We just 'think' we are. Observation of self is a post-action position at best, me thinks.
I don't believe that since I have free will that the choices I made to get what I wanted were always right. Matter of fact, I know so. I have made mistakes.
I have had to make apologies to myself and others at times.
I may not have been in control of certain situations and made choices that seemed right at the time, and some were right at the time, but in the short and long run became detrimental. With self-observation, awareness and free will I have been able to change.
Is "we thinking we are" freely thought?
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BB_snickers: That would be an argument 'for', that is along the lines of collective consciousness. I would suspect that collective and self consciousness have similar provings as to free will, or lack thereof.
The article claims more importantly that whether you're a conformist or rebel isn't something you actually chose by will, that something else, other forces putting you/us collectively, in that position.
The article claims more importantly that whether you're a conformist or rebel isn't something you actually chose by will, that something else, other forces putting you/us collectively, in that position.
How I see time, or the age, is as something that transcends the subconscious of every individual within a given culture, like a Jungian archetype. "Choices" such as to rebel or conform, and the likelihood of you choosing one over the other, is defined by the mood of the age.
I see time as a cyclic governing consciousness that is expressed through culture.
Good thread.
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BB_snickers: Thanks minnie. The article suggests that there are more processes and forces at work in the manifestation of me; but I do have the 'unproven inclination' to think that minnie-me has more control than I do.
The best a human being can have is being imperfect lol...
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Dadude62:
Is "we thinking we are" freely thought?
Is "we thinking we are" freely thought?
The article suggests that the answer to that is no. The thought process is a combination of awareness (without judgement) and perhaps social markers like morality and other forces, that influence our assessment of an action.
Pure awareness would be without judgement (right/wrong, good/bad etc) of any sort. That would be my philosophical point of view.
Further, the affects of substances and environmental factors on our thought processes are well documented suggesting again that they are far from 'freely' thought. They are in fact caused.
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Dadude62: I don't believe that since I have free will that the choices I made to get what I wanted were always right. Matter of fact, I know so. I have made mistakes.
I have had to make apologies to myself and others at times.
I may not have been in control of certain situations and made choices that seemed right at the time, and some were right at the time, but in the short and long run became detrimental. With self-observation, awareness and free will I have been able to change.
Is "we thinking we are" freely thought?
I have had to make apologies to myself and others at times.
I may not have been in control of certain situations and made choices that seemed right at the time, and some were right at the time, but in the short and long run became detrimental. With self-observation, awareness and free will I have been able to change.
Is "we thinking we are" freely thought?
To have will and to have free will are not the same. Free will suggests that you choose that which is your will. But I contend that you can only want whatever you will, you can not will whatever you want. If you get me?
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RedSpaceDuck: How I see time, or the age, is as something that transcends the subconscious of every individual within a given culture, like a Jungian archetype. "Choices" such as to rebel or conform, and the likelihood of you choosing one over the other, is defined by the mood of the age.
I see time as a cyclic governing consciousness that is expressed through culture.
Good thread.
I see time as a cyclic governing consciousness that is expressed through culture.
Good thread.
I have a somewhat similar philosophic view point Duck. Who created the this archetype or logos would be a good but unresolvable question.
Do you think we have any control at all, even in post observational position?
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minnie50: awareness without being judgemental may be a good option.good threat BB_snickers
Sometimes duality sneaks up on ya.
Did you say threat? Not trying to control actually places you in a position of more stable self control. (perhaps a poor choice of words). More awareness results, me thinks, when judgement (or assessment of life) is let go of.
Though it is not all that easy to stop thinking and mulling over the myriad of prevailing moral questions that life presents.
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BB_snickers: I have a somewhat similar philosophic view point Duck. Who created the this archetype or logos would be a good but unresolvable question.
Do you think we have any control at all, even in post observational position?
Do you think we have any control at all, even in post observational position?
If you want to know what I think then it is that our position now is the end of the cycle which I describe, there is no inherent meaning to any of it other than that it governs our being and completes the cycle.
Once we are aware that there is no meaning to life in itself we reach Nihilism, and it is that which explains the cynacism and hedonistic pulse of the modern age - a cynacism no better expressed than it is in post-modernism(which me and you espouse to) - I view this discovery as a self-defeating knowledge, we destroy willpower itself by unveiling its illusions and the culture ends by basing culture upon an "anti-faith".
In a sense we do determine what is and has been, but we have no conscious way of reversing the cycle - the question, can we "fix" free-will now we are aware it is an illusion? Is a question we were fated to ask, it is itself a product of the cycle.
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Free will only applies to things open to Man's Choice!
Basically the Freedom to think or not to think!
To point at things over which Man has no Choice,then claim that Man has no Free Will is rather strange!
Basically the Freedom to think or not to think!
To point at things over which Man has no Choice,then claim that Man has no Free Will is rather strange!
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RedSpaceDuck: To have will and to have free will are not the same. Free will suggests that you choose that which is your will. But I contend that you can only want whatever you will, you can not will whatever you want. If you get me?
This is a very good thread.
I agree that we don't choose what we will.
I don't recall ever having had the will or choice to create myself. At a certain point I became aware of myself in a situation. Life. Now I can either believe that I have no choice over anything or take personal responsibility as much as I can. Whether that choice of belief is predetermined or not is a chicken or egg argument to me.
Maybe, maybe not. Taking personal responsibility has worked better for me.
In my wants I have not always made good choices.
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Conrad73: Free will only applies to things open to Man's Choice!
Basically the Freedom to think or not to think!
To point at things over which Man has no Choice,then claim that Man has no Free Will is rather strange!
Basically the Freedom to think or not to think!
To point at things over which Man has no Choice,then claim that Man has no Free Will is rather strange!
All that is consciously thought is connected to feeling - feeling will dictate how you choose to think, whether you deny this or not it is now a scientifically established fact - and how you feel falls within the realm of the subconscious. The subconscious isn't conscious(obviously), so the subconscious can not be governed by free-will.
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Dadude62: This is a very good thread.
I agree that we don't choose what we will.
I don't recall ever having had the will or choice to create myself. At a certain point I became aware of myself in a situation. Life. Now I can either believe that I have no choice over anything or take personal responsibility as much as I can. Whether that choice of belief is predetermined or not is a chicken or egg argument to me.
Maybe, maybe not. Taking personal responsibility has worked better for me.
In my wants I have not always made good choices.
I agree that we don't choose what we will.
I don't recall ever having had the will or choice to create myself. At a certain point I became aware of myself in a situation. Life. Now I can either believe that I have no choice over anything or take personal responsibility as much as I can. Whether that choice of belief is predetermined or not is a chicken or egg argument to me.
Maybe, maybe not. Taking personal responsibility has worked better for me.
In my wants I have not always made good choices.
I agree with that no matter what the truth is on this issue, the existence of society hinges upon it.
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The Subconscious
The vast majority of all the processing our brain does is subconscious; we ultimately have no idea why we prefer particular actions over others. It seems to be that we are observers more than we are the conscious agents of choice. We become aware of what our brains are thinking but don't have any free will to pre-emptively alter it.
“Nisbett and Wilson (1977) go so far as to claim that all psychological activities (including social behaviour) are governed by processes of which we are unaware. Emotions can occur with rapid onset, through automatic appraisal, with little awareness and with involuntary changes in expression and physiology; indeed, we often experience emotions as happening to us rather than chosen by us.
Apart from Freud .. probably the most outspoken person advocate of the view that the person is not free is Skinner. In Beyond Freedom and Dignity (1971) he argues that behavioural freedom is an illusion. Just as Freud believed that freedom is an illusion to the extent that we are unaware of the unconscious causes of our feelings and behaviours, so Skinner claimed that it is only because the causes of human behaviour are often hidden from us in the environment, that the myth or illusion of free will survives.”
-Psychology: "The Science of Mind and Behaviour" by Richard Gross (1996)8
There certainly appears to be a lot of evidence supporting our definite lack of control over our lives. If you believe this, who or what do think is running things and why? Or is it pure chance, random operators, controlled chaos?
If you don't believe the points in the above article, how do you support the claim that we are ultimately in control over our lives.