American workers and Illegal immigrants (49)
There's a lot of labor jobs US folks just wont do. I worked on landscaping for along time. Most of my co-workers were Mexican. Many industries work out the visa issues, or even illegally help workers cross borders and then provide, for example, one house for a dozen or so employees.
Living in Costa Rica for almost 2 yrs and now Nicaragua, I have met many who go to New Jersey for work - there must be some organization that is helping them get the airline ticket because these folks don't have that sort of money, but they go for work in the US. In droves. Obama recently met with Central American Presidents - Nicaragua's Pres was particularly interested in speaking with him because there's a large umber of their people in the US.
It's apparent there is a demand for cheap labor. Will US citizens do that labor? I don't think so, I was a rare one (loving agriculture and not minding hard work as much as I did). It's hard dirty work, doesn't pay well, and causes one to live in cramped quarters. Their checks - mostly go back home to buy land and other commodities/services for their families (most things are very inexpensive in the southern countries).
So, ultimately - I don't think it harms "American" workers because most US citizens just don't care to do those jobs. Note - all people from south and central America are Americans.
Living in Costa Rica for almost 2 yrs and now Nicaragua, I have met many who go to New Jersey for work - there must be some organization that is helping them get the airline ticket because these folks don't have that sort of money, but they go for work in the US. In droves. Obama recently met with Central American Presidents - Nicaragua's Pres was particularly interested in speaking with him because there's a large umber of their people in the US.
It's apparent there is a demand for cheap labor. Will US citizens do that labor? I don't think so, I was a rare one (loving agriculture and not minding hard work as much as I did). It's hard dirty work, doesn't pay well, and causes one to live in cramped quarters. Their checks - mostly go back home to buy land and other commodities/services for their families (most things are very inexpensive in the southern countries).
So, ultimately - I don't think it harms "American" workers because most US citizens just don't care to do those jobs. Note - all people from south and central America are Americans.
lalasierra: I once lived in a state that was populated with many mexican illegal immigrants.
Here was the catch 22. Jobs were very scarce to begin with and felt they deserved the rights to all jobs that became available.
Then, you had the immigrants. These people litterally worked asses off, for half the money the americans would be paid, they would work longer hours and would produce better quality work.
Mystery: How did they have working papers? I don't know. Maybe the employers didn't care because of the money they were saving by hiring them?
My question: Does illegal immigragration harm american workers? (Example: through job displacement or lower wages)?
Here was the catch 22. Jobs were very scarce to begin with and felt they deserved the rights to all jobs that became available.
Then, you had the immigrants. These people litterally worked asses off, for half the money the americans would be paid, they would work longer hours and would produce better quality work.
Mystery: How did they have working papers? I don't know. Maybe the employers didn't care because of the money they were saving by hiring them?
My question: Does illegal immigragration harm american workers? (Example: through job displacement or lower wages)?
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Some additional info for you - most landscape companies charge a minimum of $30/person the job site - $7-$10 goes to wages, the rest is eaten up by taxes/social security/medicare and other overhead (equipment, chemicals, fuel, rent, phone, advertising, etc.)... hope that helps.
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lalasierra: I once lived in a state that was populated with many mexican illegal immigrants.
Here was the catch 22. Jobs were very scarce to begin with and felt they deserved the rights to all jobs that became available.
Here was the catch 22. Jobs were very scarce to begin with and felt they deserved the rights to all jobs that became available.
Then, you had the immigrants. These people litterally worked asses off, for half the money the americans would be paid, they would work longer hours and would produce better quality work.
Mystery: How did they have working papers? I don't know. Maybe the employers didn't care because of the money they were saving by hiring them?
My question: Does illegal immigragration harm american workers? (Example: through job displacement or lower wages)?
Who is 'they' in this instance?
My guess is that illegal immigrants are making a bigger contribution to the US economy that they are taking out, otherwise it wouldn't be happening.
To which particular workers do you refer, when you question whether they are being harmed?
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lalasierra: I once lived in a state that was populated with many mexican illegal immigrants.
Here was the catch 22. Jobs were very scarce to begin with and felt they deserved the rights to all jobs that became available.
Then, you had the immigrants. These people litterally worked asses off, for half the money the americans would be paid, they would work longer hours and would produce better quality work.
Mystery: How did they have working papers? I don't know. Maybe the employers didn't care because of the money they were saving by hiring them?
My question: Does illegal immigragration harm american workers? (Example: through job displacement or lower wages)?
Here was the catch 22. Jobs were very scarce to begin with and felt they deserved the rights to all jobs that became available.
Then, you had the immigrants. These people litterally worked asses off, for half the money the americans would be paid, they would work longer hours and would produce better quality work.
Mystery: How did they have working papers? I don't know. Maybe the employers didn't care because of the money they were saving by hiring them?
My question: Does illegal immigragration harm american workers? (Example: through job displacement or lower wages)?
If a person is uneducated/untrained, yes the illegal immigrants in the USA –from whom 56 % are Mexican- might be a threat for them.
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Take two: The unmessed up version...
Who is 'they' in this instance?
My guess is that illegal immigrants are making a bigger contribution to the US economy that they are taking out, otherwise it wouldn't be happening.
To which particular workers do you refer, when you question whether they are being harmed?
lalasierra: I once lived in a state that was populated with many mexican illegal immigrants.
Here was the catch 22. Jobs were very scarce to begin with and felt they deserved the rights to all jobs that became available.
Then, you had the immigrants. These people litterally worked asses off, for half the money the americans would be paid, they would work longer hours and would produce better quality work.
Mystery: How did they have working papers? I don't know. Maybe the employers didn't care because of the money they were saving by hiring them?
My question: Does illegal immigragration harm american workers? (Example: through job displacement or lower wages)?
Here was the catch 22. Jobs were very scarce to begin with and felt they deserved the rights to all jobs that became available.
Then, you had the immigrants. These people litterally worked asses off, for half the money the americans would be paid, they would work longer hours and would produce better quality work.
Mystery: How did they have working papers? I don't know. Maybe the employers didn't care because of the money they were saving by hiring them?
My question: Does illegal immigragration harm american workers? (Example: through job displacement or lower wages)?
Who is 'they' in this instance?
My guess is that illegal immigrants are making a bigger contribution to the US economy that they are taking out, otherwise it wouldn't be happening.
To which particular workers do you refer, when you question whether they are being harmed?
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I say: Let all the illegals prove their loyalty to this country they want to be a part of, by sending them to Iraq and Afghanistan to fight. If they refuse....bye bye. If they serve their time and come back alive...well done citizen of the U.S. 
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This problem would be solved real quickly:
Any employer can not deduct the wages of anyone on their taxes who is here illegally. Also anyone one welfare who refuses to take a job that they can work will be automatically kicked of any and ALL welfare programs. Also deport anyone illegally here to the country of OUR choice, oh that will break up a family, too damn bad, so does jail/prison. Next you fine every business who hires illegals $1 MILLION for every illegal still on their payroll. Also anyone using stolen ID for a job will be deported with a tattoo on their forehead with the word: Criminal. It is time to get AMERICANS back to work, and off the government TEET! You work for it or don't get it. What ever happened to pride?
Any employer can not deduct the wages of anyone on their taxes who is here illegally. Also anyone one welfare who refuses to take a job that they can work will be automatically kicked of any and ALL welfare programs. Also deport anyone illegally here to the country of OUR choice, oh that will break up a family, too damn bad, so does jail/prison. Next you fine every business who hires illegals $1 MILLION for every illegal still on their payroll. Also anyone using stolen ID for a job will be deported with a tattoo on their forehead with the word: Criminal. It is time to get AMERICANS back to work, and off the government TEET! You work for it or don't get it. What ever happened to pride?
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DaytonaDude: I say: Let all the illegals prove their loyalty to this country they want to be a part of, by sending them to Iraq and Afghanistan to fight. If they refuse....bye bye. If they serve their time and come back alive...well done citizen of the U.S.
Many have and yes send the immigrants because some Americans are too chicken to fight for
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jac379: Take two: The unmessed up version...Who is 'they' in this instance?
My guess is that illegal immigrants are making a bigger contribution to the US economy that they are taking out, otherwise it wouldn't be happening.
To which particular workers do you refer, when you question whether they are being harmed?
My guess is that illegal immigrants are making a bigger contribution to the US economy that they are taking out, otherwise it wouldn't be happening.
To which particular workers do you refer, when you question whether they are being harmed?
I'm sorry jac "they" was referring to american workers.
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There's that big factor some of you are not considering.
There are many jobs that US citizens just won't do.
The legality of it is a very different subject. Governments allow illegals to work. Politicians hire illegals. Big can of worms.
Point is - will US born citizens do your laundry, care for your lawn or your baby, labor over building your house, clean your sewers, heft that heavy load, haul your garbage...
My father's father was an illegal immigrant. He cleaned skyscraper windows in NY then painted houses in Nor Cal. He was a good man. Had honor and strong values. Yes, things today are nothing like the late 1800s. But, the question remains - who will do your hard, underpaid, uninsured, sometimes dangerous, and almost always dirty labor?
There are many jobs that US citizens just won't do.
The legality of it is a very different subject. Governments allow illegals to work. Politicians hire illegals. Big can of worms.
Point is - will US born citizens do your laundry, care for your lawn or your baby, labor over building your house, clean your sewers, heft that heavy load, haul your garbage...
My father's father was an illegal immigrant. He cleaned skyscraper windows in NY then painted houses in Nor Cal. He was a good man. Had honor and strong values. Yes, things today are nothing like the late 1800s. But, the question remains - who will do your hard, underpaid, uninsured, sometimes dangerous, and almost always dirty labor?
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lalasierra: I'm sorry jac "they" was referring to american workers.
Okay thanks, Lala.
How do you define American workers?
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Using economic projections from the Congressional Budget Office, it is calculates that "a comprehensive immigration plan that includes a way for undocumented workers to gain legal status would increase tax revenue by $4.5 billion or more over three years, and increase gross domestic product by $1.5 trillion over 10 years.
That includes $1.2 trillion in additional consumption and $256 billion in investment as immigrants buy houses and start businesses. Average wages of low-skill immigrant workers would increase by $4,405 a year for the first three years, he estimates. For skilled workers, wages would rise by more than $6,100 a year."
The bottom line: legalization for the 11 million undocumented workers living in the U.S. could increase tax revenue by $4.5 billion over three years.
This is also supported by the studies of Matt McDonald, an adviser to McCain’s 2008 presidential campaign and a partner at Hamilton Place Strategies.
That includes $1.2 trillion in additional consumption and $256 billion in investment as immigrants buy houses and start businesses. Average wages of low-skill immigrant workers would increase by $4,405 a year for the first three years, he estimates. For skilled workers, wages would rise by more than $6,100 a year."
The bottom line: legalization for the 11 million undocumented workers living in the U.S. could increase tax revenue by $4.5 billion over three years.
This is also supported by the studies of Matt McDonald, an adviser to McCain’s 2008 presidential campaign and a partner at Hamilton Place Strategies.
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jac379: Okay thanks, Lala.
How do you define American workers?
How do you define American workers?
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Bogart_1960: Using economic projections from the Congressional Budget Office, it is calculates that "a comprehensive immigration plan that includes a way for undocumented workers to gain legal status would increase tax revenue by $4.5 billion or more over three years, and increase gross domestic product by $1.5 trillion over 10 years.
That includes $1.2 trillion in additional consumption and $256 billion in investment as immigrants buy houses and start businesses. Average wages of low-skill immigrant workers would increase by $4,405 a year for the first three years, he estimates. For skilled workers, wages would rise by more than $6,100 a year."
The bottom line: legalization for the 11 million undocumented workers living in the U.S. could increase tax revenue by $4.5 billion over three years.
This is also supported by the studies of Matt McDonald, an adviser to McCain’s 2008 presidential campaign and a partner at Hamilton Place Strategies.
I hate to disagree, but ILLEGALS here would be ALLOWED to bring in their families. Besides that, how about we send them all to your country? (sarcasm). We have enough problems here we don't need anymore illegals here.. I got a great idea, we deport everyone who supports illegals, and yank their US Citizenship! sounds fair.That includes $1.2 trillion in additional consumption and $256 billion in investment as immigrants buy houses and start businesses. Average wages of low-skill immigrant workers would increase by $4,405 a year for the first three years, he estimates. For skilled workers, wages would rise by more than $6,100 a year."
The bottom line: legalization for the 11 million undocumented workers living in the U.S. could increase tax revenue by $4.5 billion over three years.
This is also supported by the studies of Matt McDonald, an adviser to McCain’s 2008 presidential campaign and a partner at Hamilton Place Strategies.
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Oregongold: I hate to disagree, but ILLEGALS here would be ALLOWED to bring in their families. Besides that, how about we send them all to your country? (sarcasm). We have enough problems here we don't need anymore illegals here.. I got a great idea, we deport everyone who supports illegals, and yank their US Citizenship! sounds fair.
I do not support illegal immigration nor would I want or need the USA's citizenboat.
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lifeisadream: I do not support illegal immigration nor would I want or need the USA's citizenboat.
I know people who legally immigrated here, one from South Africa. Took the time and money to do it, and they are PROUD Citizens. I have respect for those who do it the right way. Plus I say if your here illegally and you have a "family" you all get deported. Fair enough.
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PJ1961: There's that big factor some of you are not considering.
There are many jobs that US citizens just won't do.
There are many jobs that US citizens just won't do.
I don't think that's exactly true. Americans will do just about anything. They work in rendering plants and slaughterhouses and sewer treatment plants and such. But they demand a decent wage corresponding to the job.
Besides my fulltime job, I had a small landscaping and yard care business in Texas. I had to pay social charges, VAT and income taxes on everything I did. Mexicans working illegally were my primary competition in a small town and they made more than I did even though they charged less.
In essence I was punished for being legal and they were benefited for being illegal.
If there are no borders there is no protection against such disloyal competition. And salaries and standards will automatically slide down to the lowest common denominator. And that is really low.
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What you are addressing is the wage and government oversight issue - and you are correct, up to a point. Most people coming out of school would rather play video games and sponge off others than be a landscaper (even McDonalds pays more than landscaper get and that's easy work, may not be "dignified" to some, but the pay is good and there's little personal risk involved compared to landscape work) - even if the landscape job paid $12-$15/hour (which wouldn't hurt the employer or the customer's pocket too much) - governments turn a blind eye on the illegal landscapers because they know there aren't enough people to do the work and that some of the money they earn goes back to the market when they buy food and fuel and pay rent. You might be surprised to learn how many elected officials use illegal labor.
In the 1980s I was reading up on what jobs there'd be a heavy demand for workers for... landscaping was one of the industries - if you can find stats that show there are plenty of US citizens training to be a landscaper, I'll agree with your argument.
In the 1980s I was reading up on what jobs there'd be a heavy demand for workers for... landscaping was one of the industries - if you can find stats that show there are plenty of US citizens training to be a landscaper, I'll agree with your argument.
RayfromUSA: I don't think that's exactly true. Americans will do just about anything. They work in rendering plants and slaughterhouses and sewer treatment plants and such. But they demand a decent wage corresponding to the job.
Besides my fulltime job, I had a small landscaping and yard care business in Texas. I had to pay social charges, VAT and income taxes on everything I did. Mexicans working illegally were my primary competition in a small town and they made more than I did even though they charged less.
In essence I was punished for being legal and they were benefited for being illegal.
If there are no borders there is no protection against such disloyal competition. And salaries and standards will automatically slide down to the lowest common denominator. And that is really low.
Besides my fulltime job, I had a small landscaping and yard care business in Texas. I had to pay social charges, VAT and income taxes on everything I did. Mexicans working illegally were my primary competition in a small town and they made more than I did even though they charged less.
In essence I was punished for being legal and they were benefited for being illegal.
If there are no borders there is no protection against such disloyal competition. And salaries and standards will automatically slide down to the lowest common denominator. And that is really low.
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Bogie - is the CBO taking into account that most of what illegals earn, goes back home to invest in their families? I know a bunch of Costa Ricans who work in the US only because it helps them afford to live in Costa Rica - they buy land or other commodities, or start businesses in CR, they send money to family in CR - would they really buy land or houses in the US and plan to stay? Quality of life is way better in CR and I have a feeling it would not be their intent to invest in life in the USA. Typically they work for four years in the US and go back home with a healthy bank account and money to invest in CR.
Bogart_1960: Using economic projections from the Congressional Budget Office, it is calculates that "a comprehensive immigration plan that includes a way for undocumented workers to gain legal status would increase tax revenue by $4.5 billion or more over three years, and increase gross domestic product by $1.5 trillion over 10 years.
That includes $1.2 trillion in additional consumption and $256 billion in investment as immigrants buy houses and start businesses. Average wages of low-skill immigrant workers would increase by $4,405 a year for the first three years, he estimates. For skilled workers, wages would rise by more than $6,100 a year."
The bottom line: legalization for the 11 million undocumented workers living in the U.S. could increase tax revenue by $4.5 billion over three years.
This is also supported by the studies of Matt McDonald, an adviser to McCain’s 2008 presidential campaign and a partner at Hamilton Place Strategies.
That includes $1.2 trillion in additional consumption and $256 billion in investment as immigrants buy houses and start businesses. Average wages of low-skill immigrant workers would increase by $4,405 a year for the first three years, he estimates. For skilled workers, wages would rise by more than $6,100 a year."
The bottom line: legalization for the 11 million undocumented workers living in the U.S. could increase tax revenue by $4.5 billion over three years.
This is also supported by the studies of Matt McDonald, an adviser to McCain’s 2008 presidential campaign and a partner at Hamilton Place Strategies.
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Here was the catch 22. Jobs were very scarce to begin with and felt they deserved the rights to all jobs that became available.
Then, you had the immigrants. These people litterally worked asses off, for half the money the americans would be paid, they would work longer hours and would produce better quality work.
Mystery: How did they have working papers? I don't know. Maybe the employers didn't care because of the money they were saving by hiring them?
My question: Does illegal immigragration harm american workers? (Example: through job displacement or lower wages)?