Re:GRAND JURY DECISION IN FERGUSON:NONE! ( Archived) (215)

Nov 27, 2014 10:33 AM CST Re:GRAND JURY DECISION IN FERGUSON:NONE!
gcy1980
gcy1980gcy1980Galway, Ireland1 Threads 103 Posts
JeanKimberley: and in this case substitute the dog for the mob, the bell for the news media blitz on inciting the riot....


Too simple...people can pretend that this is all that is happening...but it will just happen all over again...and worse...

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them."sad flower
------ This thread is Archived ------
Nov 27, 2014 10:34 AM CST Re:GRAND JURY DECISION IN FERGUSON:NONE!
gcy1980: This is the ideal situation but we don't live in an ideal world. We must also always try to understand the behaviour of others from their standpoint. Behaviour comes from the thinking process. So from this point of view, a person's behaviour is his own. This resembles John Locke's view of the person, who has his own inalienable rights and obligation.
But the thinking process is strongly influenced by the environment. So while many will fail to see the causes for the problems now, this is mainly due to not equating the thought processes of the protesters with their environments.
This follows B.F Skinners view point and his dream of a socially engineered utopian society...While I don't agree with the social engineered Utopian society, I think he makes a good point about looking at environments when we try to understand behaviours.


we can understand their behavior, and most do, here anyway. but that does not make it OK. it is not an "ideal" (the suggestions I made), but the reality in many communities where there is genuine interest in building rather than destroying. There is nothing "utopian" about refraining from violence & property destruction. People do that here everyday. those demonstrators made their choices and have lost the respect of many here in the states, and we are the ones whose opinions really matter, quite frankly.
------ This thread is Archived ------
Nov 27, 2014 10:47 AM CST Re:GRAND JURY DECISION IN FERGUSON:NONE!
gcy1980
gcy1980gcy1980Galway, Ireland1 Threads 103 Posts
felixis99: we can understand their behavior, and most do, here anyway. but that does not make it OK.


My point was if people begin to understand the cause of the behaviour, then it will be possible to change it in the future.

felixis99: it is not an "ideal" (the suggestions I made), but the reality in many communities where there is genuine interest in building rather than destroying. There is nothing "utopian" about refraining from violence & property destruction.


I was alluding to the idea of Skinner's utopian society. I didn't say that refraining from violence and property destruction was utopian. I said that unless society begins to realise why this goes on, it will continue to go on.

felixis99: People do that here everyday. those demonstrators made their choices and have lost the respect of many here in the states, and we are the ones whose opinions really matter, quite frankly.


They made their choices based on their environments. They felt they weren't been listened too. And they probably have a point...
All opinions can carry weight, by the way. Can be good to listen to outside opinions...
------ This thread is Archived ------
Nov 27, 2014 11:20 AM CST Re:GRAND JURY DECISION IN FERGUSON:NONE!
secretagent09
secretagent09secretagent09New Jersey Girl in, North Carolina USA198 Threads 4 Polls 7,223 Posts
gcy1980: They made their choices based on their environments. They felt they weren't been listened too. And they probably have a point...
All opinions can carry weight, by the way. Can be good to listen to outside opinions...



I'm listening to your outside opinion and I have to say quite frankly, you are in Ireland so your opinion is just an opinion.

We here in the States deal with the black community crying the woe me nobody cares shout all the time.

You have questioned the environment the people of Ferguson live in. It was just a nice little town. Look at their environment now that they have burned down buildings, destroying the livelihood of shop owners who count on their businesses bringing in money. That's not Officer Wilson's fault. It's the people themselves who created that environment.

I have complete sympathy for the black person who strives to make a dollar to be independent, to make a better life for his/her family.

The officer did not cause them to be stupid. They waited for days what the Grand Jury would say implying they would honor that outcome. Whether the Grand Jury was right or wrong in their verdict, it is the law and if they believed in the jury system they would have voiced their opinion and ended it there.

Not every black person is a thug. Some make a mistake and learn from it. Some make a little mistake and move on to bigger mistakes. IMO, Michael Brown would have been one to move on to a bigger mistake. He was 18 years old and already defying a police officer. Red Flag !!!!

Whether white or black, the family life is important for children. Michael Brown didn't have a chance with the parents he had.

He met a fork in the road and decided to take the one he thought would make him superior to an officer of the law.

Do you think he would take the same path again?
------ This thread is Archived ------
Nov 27, 2014 11:37 AM CST Re:GRAND JURY DECISION IN FERGUSON:NONE!
gcy1980
gcy1980gcy1980Galway, Ireland1 Threads 103 Posts
secretagent09: I'm listening to your outside opinion and I have to say quite frankly, you are in Ireland so your opinion is just an opinion.

We here in the States deal with the black community crying the woe me nobody cares shout all the time.


Everyone's opinion is just an opinion at the end of the day...I have said I wouldn't comment on racial aspect as I dodn't know what it was like over there. I did say though that this is a wider and deeper societal issue in many societies.

secretagent09: You have questioned the environment the people of Ferguson live in. It was just a nice little town. Look at their environment now that they have burned down buildings, destroying the livelihood of shop owners who count on their businesses bringing in money. That's not Officer Wilson's fault. It's the people themselves who created that environment.


Environment is more than just physical buildings...

secretagent09: I have complete sympathy for the black person who strives to make a dollar to be independent, to make a better life for his/her family.


That is bordering on condescending...

secretagent09: The officer did not cause them to be stupid. They waited for days what the Grand Jury would say implying they would honor that outcome. Whether the Grand Jury was right or wrong in their verdict, it is the law and if they believed in the jury system they would have voiced their opinion and ended it there.


The question is "Was the police officer lawful in what happened?" That is the crux of this case. Further, why is their such a deep-rooted suspicion in many communities regarding the authorities?

secretagent09: Not every black person is a thug. Some make a mistake and learn from it. Some make a little mistake and move on to bigger mistakes. IMO, Michael Brown would have been one to move on to a bigger mistake. He was 18 years old and already defying a police officer. Red Flag !!!!


That is condescending...

secretagent09: Whether white or black, the family life is important for children. Michael Brown didn't have a chance with the parents he had.

He met a fork in the road and decided to take the one he thought would make him superior to an officer of the law.

Do you think he would take the same path again?


Again, this rests on what you believe? If a person believes the police officer, there is justification for what occurred. If you don't, questions need to be answered. I don't believe the police officer.
On top of this, there remains the perception within communities of a lack of justice, in many areas of life. That still needs to be addressed.
------ This thread is Archived ------
Nov 27, 2014 12:16 PM CST Re:GRAND JURY DECISION IN FERGUSON:NONE!
Ccincy
CcincyCcincyCincinnati, Ohio USA77 Threads 20,535 Posts
All I know is that what happened in Ferguson has obviously destroyed two families lives forever.
------ This thread is Archived ------
Nov 27, 2014 12:22 PM CST Re:GRAND JURY DECISION IN FERGUSON:NONE!
secretagent09
secretagent09secretagent09New Jersey Girl in, North Carolina USA198 Threads 4 Polls 7,223 Posts
gcy1980: The question is "Was the police officer lawful in what happened?" That is the crux of this case. Further, why is their such a deep-rooted suspicion in many communities regarding the authorities?



The thing you aren't understanding is that the public can ask themselves if the officer was lawful or not but it doesn't matter the answer you come up with. It was the Grand Jury's job to decide if the officer was justified in killing the person who was charging his body towards the him.

The Grand Jury decided that the evidence was enough not to indict Officer Wilson. And now you, just like certain people in Ferguson are questioning that decision. You don't want to accept the Grand Jury's decision. It doesn't matter.

The law doesn't fit every situation. This situation played out for a young man to be killed. He caused his own death. He should have kept on running. Instead he turned around and was determined to show the world that he wasn't going to let an officer tell him what to do.

When a person goes to the Police Academy they spend hours on physical training and academics as well as psychological situations. They learn their job covers many aspects from telling someone not to walk down the middle of the street because it's holding up traffic to crimes that are now being committed.

Brown tried to kill the officer!!!! That is a felony in the U.S. You can't just let that person walk away from the crime. He told him to stop and get down. Instead of doing that he decided to finish what he started to kill Officer Wilson. Do you honestly think any officer in the United States is going to let the perpetrator get away with that.

Instead of questioning if the officer did the right thing maybe you should be asking the question did Michael Brown have the right to try to kill an officer because he was told to get out of the street.
------ This thread is Archived ------
Nov 27, 2014 12:48 PM CST Re:GRAND JURY DECISION IN FERGUSON:NONE!
gcy1980
gcy1980gcy1980Galway, Ireland1 Threads 103 Posts
secretagent09: The thing you aren't understanding is that the public can ask themselves if the officer was lawful or not but it doesn't matter the answer you come up with.


I disagree. People are not robots...

secretagent09: It was the Grand Jury's job to decide if the officer was justified in killing the person who was charging his body towards the him.


This has never been fully determined...the police officer said he was charging. I have read the police officer's statements. They are not believable.

secretagent09: The Grand Jury decided that the evidence was enough not to indict Officer Wilson. And now you, just like certain people in Ferguson are questioning that decision. You don't want to accept the Grand Jury's decision. It doesn't matter.


Yes I am questioning that decision. Juries consist of people...People are not infallible.

secretagent09: The law doesn't fit every situation. This situation played out for a young man to be killed. He caused his own death. He should have kept on running. Instead he turned around and was determined to show the world that he wasn't going to let an officer tell him what to do.


This is also disputed...

secretagent09: When a person goes to the Police Academy they spend hours on physical training and academics as well as psychological situations. They learn their job covers many aspects from telling someone not to walk down the middle of the street because it's holding up traffic to crimes that are now being committed.


Irrelevant. Just because someone is trained in a specific way doesn't mean they are never wrong.

secretagent09: Brown tried to kill the officer!!!! That is a felony in the U.S. You can't just let that person walk away from the crime. He told him to stop and get down. Instead of doing that he decided to finish what he started to kill Officer Wilson. Do you honestly think any officer in the United States is going to let the perpetrator get away with that.


These are the police officers words again...there is many illogical problems with his statements.

secretagent09: Instead of questioning if the officer did the right thing maybe you should be asking the question did Michael Brown have the right to try to kill an officer because he was told to get out of the street.


I would question whether Michael Brown tried to kill the police officer.

Question 1: When someone becomes a police officer, are they magically imbued with some kind of power whereby they always tell the truth and never do anything wrong?

Question 2: If they are not imbued with this power, why did the grand jury not realise the huge issues around his testimony?
------ This thread is Archived ------
Nov 27, 2014 1:07 PM CST Re:GRAND JURY DECISION IN FERGUSON:NONE!
secretagent09
secretagent09secretagent09New Jersey Girl in, North Carolina USA198 Threads 4 Polls 7,223 Posts
gcy1980: I disagree. People are not robots...
This has never been fully determined...the police officer said he was charging. I have read the police officer's statements. They are not believable.
Yes I am questioning that decision. Juries consist of people...People are not infallible.
This is also disputed...
Irrelevant. Just because someone is trained in a specific way doesn't mean they are never wrong.
These are the police officers words again...there is many illogical problems with his statements.
I would question whether Michael Brown tried to kill the police officer.

Question 1: When someone becomes a police officer, are they magically imbued with some kind of power whereby they always tell the truth and never do anything wrong?

Question 2: If they are not imbued with this power, why did the grand jury not realise the huge issues around his testimony?




"This has never been fully determined...the police officer said he was charging. I have read the police officer's statements. They are not believable."

That's fine. You don't believe it. Life goes on.

You are full of questions and rightfully so.


Are you questioning the outcome of the Grand Jury because they didn't come up with what you think they should have decided?

Can you set aside your personal opinion to look at this in the eyes of the law?

What do you think Officer Wilson should have done when Michael Brown was pushed away from his police car????
------ This thread is Archived ------
Nov 27, 2014 1:51 PM CST Re:GRAND JURY DECISION IN FERGUSON:NONE!
ResponsiDAMNbility

------ This thread is Archived ------
Nov 27, 2014 2:08 PM CST Re:GRAND JURY DECISION IN FERGUSON:NONE!
GUZMAN1
GUZMAN1GUZMAN1Barcelona, Catalonia Spain65 Threads 44 Polls 5,101 Posts
secretagent09: Can you set aside your personal opinion to look at this in the eyes of the law?


The same law which allows a policeman to use his gun protects his presumption of innocence.

And this means that in unclear situations no one is jailed.


Other countries laws punishes the policemen who takes out their guns by weak reasons. But when patrolling certain streets is not safe, such reactions aren't irrational.
------ This thread is Archived ------
Nov 27, 2014 2:12 PM CST Re:GRAND JURY DECISION IN FERGUSON:NONE!
usa should not have guns like ireland
------ This thread is Archived ------
Nov 27, 2014 2:17 PM CST Re:GRAND JURY DECISION IN FERGUSON:NONE!
And therefore, the reason for Grand Juries in America; to bring to the justice system the cases that rise above what the law normally considers.


If the State's attorney or district Attorney whatever they are called, does not bring charges against a public official (a police officer), then it is up to a Grand Jury to do the job as investigation, calling witnesses and determine if there is enough to indict.

That is the way America works, and everything as consequences. Anyone in America who acts out in violence, the looters, the arsonists, the instigators for violence in the town of Ferguson, will likely face America's system of law in some form or fashion.

For the police officer - the system is not through - there are the federal government's civil violations department who will review it. There is the State's civil courts of law that can review this cause.
------ This thread is Archived ------
Nov 27, 2014 2:17 PM CST Re:GRAND JURY DECISION IN FERGUSON:NONE!
gcy1980: My point was if people begin to understand the cause of the behaviour, then it will be possible to change it in the future.
I was alluding to the idea of Skinner's utopian society. I didn't say that refraining from violence and property destruction was utopian. I said that unless society begins to realise why this goes on, it will continue to go on.
They made their choices based on their environments. They felt they weren't been listened too. And they probably have a point...
All opinions can carry weight, by the way. Can be good to listen to outside opinions...


Yes of course one is seldom hurt by listening. A lot of us here think that the Catholic Church in Ireland should stop funding the IRA...lol. I just meant that outsiders/non countrymen are not going to understand your local problems as well as you do. So sometimes opinions of those from the outside miss the nuances.

The environment is not really the primary issue in Ferguson. The issue was a white office shooting a black man. It was a racial issue (although the environment certainly can contribute to that).

the protesters in Ferguson certainly are entitled to "think" and believe as they please. So are the rest of us. There are many of us who have a "point." So what? It's not the belief - it's the behavior that is the problem.

For this type of behavior to change in the future we look to those protesters to take responsibility for changing their own behaviors and responses. Time to "Own up." Time to think. They are the only ones who can change their behavior, their futures, their choices and their responses. period. It is not the responsibility of the rest of us or "society" to do anything regarding that change. It is totally their responsibility.

I think lack of personal responsibility is perhaps the biggest problem these protesters have. So I was only objecting to some of what you said because I object to anything that does not require total personal responsibility from these protesters for their actions. And, it sounded like that was the path you were starting down.

A lot of people feel like they are not listened to at times. But we don;t cause havoc. We find a way to be listened to. But I think you raise a good issue here: The protesters in Ferguson had a chance to be listened to and they totally destroyed it in a counterproductive way.
The protesters are obligated to remain within the law which allows peaceable assembly in this country.
------ This thread is Archived ------
Nov 27, 2014 2:19 PM CST Re:GRAND JURY DECISION IN FERGUSON:NONE!
pedro27: usa should not have guns like ireland


Ideal thought - intentions are good.



America is not like any other country in the world. It has some similar things, but overall it is a very different bird of another color.
------ This thread is Archived ------
Nov 27, 2014 2:21 PM CST Re:GRAND JURY DECISION IN FERGUSON:NONE!
felixis99: Yes of course one is seldom hurt by listening. A lot of us here think that the Catholic Church in Ireland should stop funding the IRA...lol. I just meant that outsiders/non countrymen are not going to understand your local problems as well as you do. So sometimes opinions of those from the outside miss the nuances.

The environment is not really the primary issue in Ferguson. The issue was a white office shooting a black man. It was a racial issue (although the environment certainly can contribute to that).

the protesters in Ferguson certainly are entitled to "think" and believe as they please. So are the rest of us. There are many of us who have a "point." So what? It's not the belief - it's the behavior that is the problem.

For this type of behavior to change in the future we look to those protesters to take responsibility for changing their own behaviors and responses. Time to "Own up." Time to think. They are the only ones who can change their behavior, their futures, their choices and their responses. period. It is not the responsibility of the rest of us or "society" to do anything regarding that change. It is totally their responsibility.

I think lack of personal responsibility is perhaps the biggest problem these protesters have. So I was only objecting to some of what you said because I object to anything that does not require total personal responsibility from these protesters for their actions. And, it sounded like that was the path you were starting down.

A lot of people feel like they are not listened to at times. But we don;t cause havoc. We find a way to be listened to. But I think you raise a good issue here: The protesters in Ferguson had a chance to be listened to and they totally destroyed it in a counterproductive way.
The protesters are obligated to remain within the law which allows peaceable assembly in this country.


also to continue on this thought, I read that about 90% of the protestors were not from or living in Ferguson, they came to Ferguson to protest and .... some to cause trouble.
------ This thread is Archived ------
Nov 27, 2014 2:23 PM CST Re:GRAND JURY DECISION IN FERGUSON:NONE!
Ccincy: All I know is that what happened in Ferguson has obviously destroyed two families lives forever.


More than two families.
------ This thread is Archived ------
Nov 27, 2014 2:23 PM CST Re:GRAND JURY DECISION IN FERGUSON:NONE!
JeanKimberley: Ideal thought - intentions are good.
America is not like any other country in the world. It has some similar things, but overall it is a very different bird of another color.
the guns came from the cowboys and still to this day guns are legal to own
------ This thread is Archived ------
Nov 27, 2014 2:27 PM CST Re:GRAND JURY DECISION IN FERGUSON:NONE!
pedro27: the guns came from the cowboys and still to this day guns are legal to own


sorta true.... history has the settlers in the communities and the law followed, whereas in Canada, the law went first then the settlers came after. So a totally different approach to justice.

Also, Canada is a younger country and only 26-28 million whereas America has 308 million folk living here.
------ This thread is Archived ------
Nov 27, 2014 3:57 PM CST Re:GRAND JURY DECISION IN FERGUSON:NONE!
crayons
crayonscrayonsSt. Jo, Texas USA65 Threads 1,951 Posts
In response to: I just learned via CNN that there have been NO grand jury decision reached in Ferguson concerning the fatal shooting by a white cop of a African-American youth, Michael Brown. So what happens next-peaceful protests with the possibility of all hell breaking loose in Ferguson, St.Louis,maybe even New York, Chicago? What do you fellow single men and women have to say about that?


see y'all with the alinsky subversive criminals in charge,

they said we could keep our doctor if wee wanted too {lie}

they call us bitter gun and bible clingers,

so they want our guns and our bibles,

they only thing these subversive criminals

want us to keep is our Criminal Illegals
------ This thread is Archived ------
Post Comment - Post a comment on this Forum Thread

This Thread is Archived

This Thread is archived, so you will no longer be able to post to it. Threads get archived automatically when they are older than 3 months.

« Go back to All Threads
Message #318
We use cookies to ensure that you have the best experience possible on our website. Read Our Privacy Policy Here