Is Italy is Lying About Their Coronavirus Death Numbers? ( Archived) (59)

Mar 29, 2020 2:14 PM CST Is Italy is Lying About Their Coronavirus Death Numbers?
Rogerandout: Did you read all that Pedro? I got bored after the third line
I got a bit further maybe the 8th line ..
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Mar 29, 2020 2:18 PM CST Is Italy is Lying About Their Coronavirus Death Numbers?
germanspitz
germanspitzgermanspitzingoldmells, Lincolnshire, England UK18 Threads 2,111 Posts
mollybaby: Funerals happen here within a day or so as well.
I don't think it's too much to do with Catholicism. I think it is just in Britain there is a long wait.
We have cremations mostly Molly and a lot of rigamarole with death certificates and funeral arrangements. During the Winter months when the death rate is usually higher it can be a wait of 2 to 3 weeks.wave
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Mar 29, 2020 2:22 PM CST Is Italy is Lying About Their Coronavirus Death Numbers?
Bearwoman
BearwomanBearwomanNorthgate, Ohio USA9 Threads 3,267 Posts
I'd be wondering who's doing all the reporting the news media or the families who are being affected by all this.
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Mar 29, 2020 2:24 PM CST Is Italy is Lying About Their Coronavirus Death Numbers?
mollybaby
mollybabymollybabyCork City, Cork Ireland56 Threads 8 Polls 23,608 Posts
germanspitz: We have cremations mostly Molly and a lot of rigamarole with death certificates and funeral arrangements. During the Winter months when the death rate is usually higher it can be a wait of 2 to 3 weeks.
Yeah, the first time I came across that, I thought it was horrendous. Death is bad enough without all that waiting around.
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Mar 29, 2020 2:28 PM CST Is Italy is Lying About Their Coronavirus Death Numbers?
germanspitz
germanspitzgermanspitzingoldmells, Lincolnshire, England UK18 Threads 2,111 Posts
mollybaby: Yeah, the first time I came across that, I thought it was horrendous. Death is bad enough without all that waiting around.
Too true Molly.

Off to water the dog and hit the sack. Have you booked your cruise on the Titanic yet rolling on the floor laughing rolling on the floor laughing
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Mar 29, 2020 2:28 PM CST Is Italy is Lying About Their Coronavirus Death Numbers?
epirb
epirbepirbDannevirke, Hawke's Bay New Zealand32 Threads 2 Polls 7,379 Posts
MustangWriter: Cancer & old age deaths listed as Coronavirus?

The coronavirus pandemic is exacting a heavy toll on Italy, with hospitals overwhelmed and a nationwide lockdown imposed. But experts are also concerned about a seemingly high death rate, with the number of fatalities outstripping the total reported in China.
Of the 63,927 people confirmed coronavirus patients in Italy, 6,077 so far have died. By contrast China has many more cases, 81,496, but 3,274 fatalities.
In very crude terms, this means that around nine per cent of confirmed coronavirus patients have died in Italy, compared to four per cent in China. By this measure Germany, which has so far identified 28,865 cases and 118 deaths, has a fatality rate of just 0.4 per cent.
So why the disparity?
According to Prof Walter Ricciardi, scientific adviser to Italy’s minister of health, the country’s mortality rate is far higher due to demographics - the nation has the second oldest population worldwide - and the manner in which hospitals record deaths.

“The age of our patients in hospitals is substantially older - the median is 67, while in China it was 46,” Prof Ricciardi says. “So essentially the age distribution of our patients is squeezed to an older age and this is substantial in increasing the lethality.”

A study in JAMA this week found that almost 40 per cent of infections and 87 per cent of deaths in the country have been in patients over 70 years old.

And according to modelling by Imperial College, London the majority of this age group are likely to need critical hospital care - including 80 per cent of 80-somethings - putting immense pressure on the health system.
But Prof Ricciardi added that Italy’s death rate may also appear high because of how doctors record fatalities.
“The way in which we code deaths in our country is very generous in the sense that all the people who die in hospitals with the coronavirus are deemed to be dying of the coronavirus.

“On re-evaluation by the National Institute of Health, only 12 per cent of death certificates have shown a direct causality from coronavirus, while 88 per cent of patients who have died have at least one pre-morbidity - many had two or three,” he says.

This does not mean that Covid-19 did not contribute to a patient's death, rather it demonstrates that Italy's fatality toll has surged as a large proportion of patients have underlying health conditions.

But there are other factors that may have contributed to Italy’s fatality rates, experts say. This includes a high rate of smoking and pollution - the majority of deaths have been in the northern region Lombardy region, which is notorious for poor air quality.

And there’s also no question that parts of Italy’s health system have been overwhelmed with a surge of coronavirus patients and are struggling to cope.

"There are three factors involved in Italy: one is that it is a much older population, two the health system was overwhelmed, and three there has been a significant loss of health workers because of a high coronavirus infection rate among them,” says Prof McKee.
"Italy is ahead of us in the epidemic - and it’s not clear how many health workers [in the UK] are having to self isolate. That’s another big concern.
"Based on Italy’s experience, there is a real concern for the UK,” adds Prof McKee. “Compared to almost every other European country we have a relative shortage of ventilators and medical staff.”
In another week or two the numbers dying in parts of the US will be worse than the north of Italy . Bare in mind usual Italian death rate is 10.6 per hundred thousand . Chinese covid is running at 200 per 100 thousand in Italy , do you feel lucky punk ?
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Mar 29, 2020 3:04 PM CST Is Italy is Lying About Their Coronavirus Death Numbers?
Dedovix
DedovixDedovixBig Place, Central Serbia Serbia12 Threads 1 Polls 5,492 Posts
MustangWriter: Cancer & old age deaths listed as Coronavirus?

.”
I watched a video, a official announcement of the Italien health something something
it was a press conference, he addressed the reporters in Italien but the video had a serbian translation - long story short -the given number of deceased is the number of all the deceased, no matter of the actual cause
and if you compare the rate of death from 2018 ,you will see that there isnt much of a difference
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Mar 29, 2020 3:12 PM CST Is Italy is Lying About Their Coronavirus Death Numbers?
Mercedes_00
Mercedes_00Mercedes_00Greater Sydney, New South Wales Australia18 Threads 20,446 Posts
The exhausted nurses & doctors I've listened to aren't lying at all..As far as those with underlying medical issues I will say that they would still be alive if Corona hadn't of wreaked havoc on those underlying medical issues.

If you have a heart problem and your run over by a bus...Are you going to say it wasn't the impact of the bus it was he's heart problem?
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Mar 29, 2020 3:20 PM CST Is Italy is Lying About Their Coronavirus Death Numbers?
Dedovix
DedovixDedovixBig Place, Central Serbia Serbia12 Threads 1 Polls 5,492 Posts
Mercedes_00: The exhausted nurses & doctors I've listened to aren't lying at all..As far as those with underlying medical issues I will say that they would still be alive if Corona hadn't of wreaked havoc on those underlying medical issues.

If you have a heart problem and your run over by a bus...Are you going to say it wasn't the impact of the bus it was he's heart problem?
Apparently they rig the tests
testing people for Corona not for covid 19
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Mar 29, 2020 3:21 PM CST Is Italy is Lying About Their Coronavirus Death Numbers?
Mercedes_00
Mercedes_00Mercedes_00Greater Sydney, New South Wales Australia18 Threads 20,446 Posts
Dedovix: Apparently they rig the tests
testing people for Corona not for covid 19
A mistake or rigged?
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Mar 29, 2020 3:22 PM CST Is Italy is Lying About Their Coronavirus Death Numbers?
mollybaby
mollybabymollybabyCork City, Cork Ireland56 Threads 8 Polls 23,608 Posts
Dedovix: Apparently they rig the tests
testing people for Corona not for covid 19
The beer?
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Mar 29, 2020 3:30 PM CST Is Italy is Lying About Their Coronavirus Death Numbers?
Dedovix
DedovixDedovixBig Place, Central Serbia Serbia12 Threads 1 Polls 5,492 Posts
Mercedes_00: A mistake or rigged?
rigged

as far as i understood ,as im no medical expert, corona is a common virus,a flue and there is a big possibility that most of us had it at some point ,the flue,
and covid 19 is a modified, engineered virus yet still the dead rate is lower than swine flue ,so they are testing people for corona ...im not gonna speculate about the reasons why
I have a few friends in Italy ,a few actually work in Hospitals and according to them
the mortality rate has not really increased , tho truth to be told, 80+ year old with several health problems ,if infected with flue are at bigger health risk anyway
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Mar 29, 2020 3:31 PM CST Is Italy is Lying About Their Coronavirus Death Numbers?
Dedovix
DedovixDedovixBig Place, Central Serbia Serbia12 Threads 1 Polls 5,492 Posts
mollybaby: The beer?
laugh
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Mar 29, 2020 3:32 PM CST Is Italy is Lying About Their Coronavirus Death Numbers?
epirb
epirbepirbDannevirke, Hawke's Bay New Zealand32 Threads 2 Polls 7,379 Posts
Mercedes_00: The exhausted nurses & doctors I've listened to aren't lying at all..As far as those with underlying medical issues I will say that they would still be alive if Corona hadn't of wreaked havoc on those underlying medical issues.

If you have a heart problem and your run over by a bus...Are you going to say it wasn't the impact of the bus it was he's heart problem?
It was the oil companys fault
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Mar 29, 2020 3:43 PM CST Is Italy is Lying About Their Coronavirus Death Numbers?
Mercedes_00
Mercedes_00Mercedes_00Greater Sydney, New South Wales Australia18 Threads 20,446 Posts
epirb: It was the oil companys fault
Fair enough
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Mar 29, 2020 4:36 PM CST Is Italy is Lying About Their Coronavirus Death Numbers?
bohemianjack
bohemianjackbohemianjackEast Central, Minnesota USA6 Threads 2 Polls 2,701 Posts
Mercedes_00: The exhausted nurses & doctors I've listened to aren't lying at all..As far as those with underlying medical issues I will say that they would still be alive if Corona hadn't of wreaked havoc on those underlying medical issues.

If you have a heart problem and your run over by a bus...Are you going to say it wasn't the impact of the bus it was he's heart problem?
thumbs up

To use your example, if the patient with a heart problem was hit by a bus and can't get properly treated because the hospital systems are overrun with corona patients, it should be part of the Corona virus death numbers. Trump and republicans lied about hurricane death tolls in Puerto Rico, while throwing paper towels to the crowd. Now with their lying, they hoped to keep numbers low, and keep severity under wraps, while taking advantage inside information, warning donors including managers of political blind trusts as markets crashed worldwide, but the wealthy profited handsomely.. barf
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Apr 5, 2020 12:24 PM CST Is Italy is Lying About Their Coronavirus Death Numbers?
KNenagh
KNenaghKNenaghAachen, Kilkenny Ireland12 Threads 11,160 Posts
Is Italy is Lying About Their Coronavirus Death Numbers?

I don't think so - I don't believe the official figures released by the Chinese government.


Nebesna: Of course they are. In Germany the death rate os 0,4%.
Germany's death rate is about 1.4 % at the moment.

Couple of reasons:
Lots of testing - about 350,000 people are tested each week and they did early contact tracing.
It started out as an epidemic of skiers - the average age of infected people is 49, which is lower than in other countries.
Talking to my siblings, more people are NOT working from home compared to Ireland - but I think they got the message of social distancing quite quickly - it spread among younger people and not so much to the older generation so far.
Good public health system lots of intensive care beds (patients from neighbouring countries are treated as well).
Political leadership - Angela Merkel recognized the seriousness of COVID-19. She was open in her communication and showed leadership.
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Apr 5, 2020 4:00 PM CST Is Italy is Lying About Their Coronavirus Death Numbers?
MustangWriter
MustangWriterMustangWriterBoerne, Texas USA242 Threads 3 Polls 1,762 Posts
CDC Tells Hospitals To List COVID as Cause of Death Even if You're Just Assuming or It Only Contributed

The problem with making informed decisions about coronavirus is that we don’t have a whole lot of data on it at the moment. The data that we do have, meanwhile, could end up being terminally skewed, particularly the data that’s been coming out of China.

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s guidance on determining COVID-19 as a cause of death isn’t going to help those numbers.

Issued March 24, the guidance tells hospitals to list COVID-19 as a cause of death regardless of whether or not there’s actual testing to confirm that’s the case.
Instead, even if the coronavirus was just a contributing factor or if it’s “assumed to have caused or contributed to death,” it can be listed as the primary cause.

The International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems, or ICD, has established the code U07.1 for death by coronavirus infection. There’s a secondary code, U07.2, “for clinical or epidemiological diagnosis of COVID-19 where a laboratory confirmation is inconclusive or not available,” according to the CDC guidance.

“Because laboratory test results are not typically reported on death certificates in the U.S., NCHS is not planning to implement U07.2 for mortality statistics.”

Therein lies the problem.

“The underlying cause depends upon what and where conditions are reported on the death certificate. However, the rules for coding and selection of the underlying cause of death are expected to result in COVID- 19 being the underlying cause more often than not,” the guidelines read.

“COVID-19 should be reported on the death certificate for all decedents where the disease caused or is assumed to have caused or contributed to death. Certifiers should include as much detail as possible based on their knowledge of the case, medical records, laboratory testing, etc.,” the guidance continued.

“If the decedent had other chronic conditions such as COPD or asthma that may have also contributed, these conditions can be reported in Part II.”


Author and former New York Times reporter Alex Berenson, one of the few well-known figures to question some of the statistics on COVID-19, questioned the new CDC guidelines as well:

Earlier this week, President Donald Trump and members of his coronavirus task force announced that they were expecting a death toll of between 100,000 and 240,000 from coronavirus.

In an article on Friday, The Washington Post said some experts didn’t think the White House’s prediction models were accurate. It wasn’t because those experts thought that figure was too high or too low: It’s just because they didn’t think there was enough data to determine a death range yet.

“We don’t have a sense of what’s going on in the here and now, and we don’t know what people will do in the future,” Jeffrey Shaman, a Columbia University epidemiologist whose work was used by the White House to determine the death ranges, said.

“We don’t know if the virus is seasonal, as well.”

It doesn’t help that data when the guidelines for determining who’s actually died of the coronavirus are profoundly vague.

For instance, what happens when an elderly person with numerous underlying conditions comes into the hospital and dies?

What happens when someone suffering from late-stage cancer or liver failure dies in the hospital? If that person was in the final stages of life and no testing is done and no autopsy conducted, what are we to assume?

If no testing is done and a patient’s symptoms are close enough to the seasonal flu, will that person’s death automatically be attributed to COVID-19? And how much of a difference would that make in the numbers, if any?

The Western Journal has emailed the CDC for comment, but did not hear back in time for publication of this article.
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Apr 5, 2020 4:01 PM CST Is Italy is Lying About Their Coronavirus Death Numbers?
MustangWriter
MustangWriterMustangWriterBoerne, Texas USA242 Threads 3 Polls 1,762 Posts
There’s no doubt that this guidance will inflate the numbers, the only question is how drastically.

In places like New York City, where medical professionals are painfully overstretched, anyone who dies with an infection that’s vaguely COVID-19-like could potentially have COVID-19 listed as their cause of death.

Consider, for instance, that the CDC is estimating there were between 24,000 and 63,000 deaths in the United States from influenza between October and March.

In NYC, does that mean some of those deaths got lumped under COVID-19? Will this keep on happening?

If so, that could skew the data in a significantly different direction — and it could influence the government’s intervention to stop the spread of the virus.

This is a haphazard way to gather data at a time when that data needs to be more accurate than ever. We can and should do better than this.

Watch the video and read the twitter texts here:

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