US UK and Australia, combine in new Nuclear Submarine pact (58)
Tiger_MothYeovil, Somerset, England UK23 Threads 2,833 PostsMesange1: Brilliant analysis of the situation Rob ! As i said to a friend this morning, there is so much hidden mud about the current politics, the planet has never been so close to a terrible general conflagration .............but the "dunces" keep laughing, mocking and insulting their allies ......... when everyone needs to calm down the pressure and use a lot of wise diplomacy ............ JMO
Doesn't appear to be going down too well anyway and yes I agree with Rob's analysis.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/aukus-pact-uk-and-us-battle-to-contain-international-backlash/ar-AAOwEYp?ocid=iehp&li=BBoPWjQ
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Mesange1: Even Ignatius Reilly in person honoured us with his usual elegant garbage !
This one did not work either ....... anyways, the simple thought of Ignatius,with his green bonnet, his greasy hotdogs and a mental image of his "pyloric ring" does it any time ! 
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Tiger_Moth: Doesn't appear to be going down too well anyway and yes I agree with Rob's analysis.
Enchanted to read that Tiger-Moth, at least there are a few people who reason and observe wisely the evolution of the times ! The appeareances are not reality for sure ! 
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On a NZ news site with comments galore. One comment stuck out regarding UK, OZ and USA esp regarding Nukes.
"NZers are like the family with a weird mum that no-one wants to hang out with"
Let's be honest though, at least us Kiwis aren't as bad as Justin Trudeau aka Fidel Castro's love child from Canada
"NZers are like the family with a weird mum that no-one wants to hang out with"
Let's be honest though, at least us Kiwis aren't as bad as Justin Trudeau aka Fidel Castro's love child from Canada
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MrBoDangles: On a NZ news site with comments galore. One comment stuck out regarding UK, OZ and USA esp regarding Nukes.
"NZers are like the family with a weird mum that no-one wants to hang out with"
Let's be honest though, at least us Kiwis aren't as bad as Justin Trudeau aka Fidel Castro's love child from Canada
"NZers are like the family with a weird mum that no-one wants to hang out with"
Let's be honest though, at least us Kiwis aren't as bad as Justin Trudeau aka Fidel Castro's love child from Canada
.. I love NZ... You gave us that bischin zombie movie, DeadAlive.. Woo Hoo...
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Why are the French so angry?
There are a number of reasons. For one, the deal was of virtually unrivaled economic significance to France’s defense sector, said Pierre Morcos, a French visiting fellow at the D.C.-based Center for Strategic and International Studies.
The deal was crucial for “a whole network of small and medium enterprises” in France that were supposed to benefit from it, he said. The economic significance of the Australia deal has been compared to a landmark 2015 agreement between India and French company Dassault Aviation to supply 36 Rafale fighter jets.
Second, France stands to lose strategically as a result of Australia bowing out of its previous commitment. When the deal was struck, the French government celebrated a “strategic partnership … for the next 50 years.”
“This overall framework is now jeopardized,” Morcos said.
French officials also believed that their deal with Australia was an example of U.S.-French cooperation because the Australian branch of Lockheed Martin, an American company, was expected to be involved in the project.
A third key reason for the French anger is the way the deal between Australia, Britain and the United States was announced. A French official said Thursday that Paris learned of the decision only through media reports — even though it had been negotiated among the three participants for months.
White House press secretary Jen Psaki said that France was “aware in advance” of the new agreement, although Secretary of State Antony Blinken indicated that awareness came only in the past day or two.
Australian Prime Minister Scott Morrison said that he had warned Macron of problems with the French contract during a visit to Paris in June. But a French diplomatic official countered Friday that, in their meetings, the Australians only asked whether the French submarines were still adequate for the changing threat environment. The official said the Australians did not suggest they were planning to move to a different submarine technology as a result of those discussions, or that they were in talks over a deal with Britain and the United States.
The fact that the Biden administration did not apparently anticipate the furious French reaction means that “we are heading toward difficult times between Paris, Canberra and Washington,” Morcos said.
There are a number of reasons. For one, the deal was of virtually unrivaled economic significance to France’s defense sector, said Pierre Morcos, a French visiting fellow at the D.C.-based Center for Strategic and International Studies.
The deal was crucial for “a whole network of small and medium enterprises” in France that were supposed to benefit from it, he said. The economic significance of the Australia deal has been compared to a landmark 2015 agreement between India and French company Dassault Aviation to supply 36 Rafale fighter jets.
Second, France stands to lose strategically as a result of Australia bowing out of its previous commitment. When the deal was struck, the French government celebrated a “strategic partnership … for the next 50 years.”
“This overall framework is now jeopardized,” Morcos said.
French officials also believed that their deal with Australia was an example of U.S.-French cooperation because the Australian branch of Lockheed Martin, an American company, was expected to be involved in the project.
A third key reason for the French anger is the way the deal between Australia, Britain and the United States was announced. A French official said Thursday that Paris learned of the decision only through media reports — even though it had been negotiated among the three participants for months.
White House press secretary Jen Psaki said that France was “aware in advance” of the new agreement, although Secretary of State Antony Blinken indicated that awareness came only in the past day or two.
Australian Prime Minister Scott Morrison said that he had warned Macron of problems with the French contract during a visit to Paris in June. But a French diplomatic official countered Friday that, in their meetings, the Australians only asked whether the French submarines were still adequate for the changing threat environment. The official said the Australians did not suggest they were planning to move to a different submarine technology as a result of those discussions, or that they were in talks over a deal with Britain and the United States.
The fact that the Biden administration did not apparently anticipate the furious French reaction means that “we are heading toward difficult times between Paris, Canberra and Washington,” Morcos said.
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When has the Biden administration anticipated anything??
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mikey4691: When has the Biden administration anticipated anything??
What is it about the Americans that make them attack every president they have??------ This thread is Archived ------
tomcatty: Why are the French so angry?
The fact that the Biden administration did not apparently anticipate the furious French reaction means that “we are heading toward difficult times between Paris, Canberra and Washington,” Morcos said.
Not to mention China.The fact that the Biden administration did not apparently anticipate the furious French reaction means that “we are heading toward difficult times between Paris, Canberra and Washington,” Morcos said.
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Mesange1: Sorry, the format of the image was not accepted, let's try this one, which will even be more explicit !
Well....i think that you chose wrong "colours/races" for two monkeys out of the three. I think the colours of all those "three monkeys" should be "white" since USA, Australia, and the UK are predominantly white nations ------ This thread is Archived ------
@tomcatty
Nobody I know trusts PM Morrison Tom We only have to look at the F-35A Lightning II deal the plane is a load of crap, one only has to count the number that have crashed already. Australia's military cooperation with the US, the US currently deploys about 2,500 marines to the Top End each dry season, bullocks.
On 11 March 1942, during World War II, General Douglas MacArthur and members of his family and staff left the Philippine island of Corregidor and his forces, which were surrounded by the Japanese. Please don't forget that MacArthur deserted his troops in Philippines to save his own skin.
Both Malaysia and Indonesia have both criticized Australia's decision. Indonesia currently has available 750,000 armed personnel, it has already deployed well over 20,000 commandos close (very close) to Australia... Indonesia’s President Joko Widodo has maintained good ties with China despite issues over sovereignty near the Natuna Islands in ongoing south china sea dispute.
Indonesia foreign affairs spokesman Teuku Faizasyah said Jakarta had taken note of Australia’s decision to acquire nuclear-powered submarines and stressed “Indonesia is deeply concerned over the continuing arms race and power projection in the region”.
“Indonesia stresses the importance of Australia’s commitment to continue meeting all of its nuclear non-proliferation obligations,” the statement said.
“Indonesia calls on Australia to maintain its commitment towards regional peace, stability and security in accordance with the Treaty of Amity and Cooperation the code of conduct between the Association of South-east Asian Nations.
Indonesia is deeply concerned over the continuing arms race and power projection in the region.
The proposed USA UK submarine deal would provide a platform that could launch ballistic missiles and therefore could carry and deliver nuclear weapons. The initial French submarine deal was based on a nuclear powered submarine that then PM Turnbull (another liar) proposed the submarine would be converted to conventionally diesel power.
America could not defend Australia, best as i can tell America will very likely be trading US$Peso sooner than later and this country is gunner go down with it. Your American PM is a clown Tom, first class clown, just like Biden and Morrison, very least liars, bloody idiots
Nobody I know trusts PM Morrison Tom We only have to look at the F-35A Lightning II deal the plane is a load of crap, one only has to count the number that have crashed already. Australia's military cooperation with the US, the US currently deploys about 2,500 marines to the Top End each dry season, bullocks.
On 11 March 1942, during World War II, General Douglas MacArthur and members of his family and staff left the Philippine island of Corregidor and his forces, which were surrounded by the Japanese. Please don't forget that MacArthur deserted his troops in Philippines to save his own skin.
Both Malaysia and Indonesia have both criticized Australia's decision. Indonesia currently has available 750,000 armed personnel, it has already deployed well over 20,000 commandos close (very close) to Australia... Indonesia’s President Joko Widodo has maintained good ties with China despite issues over sovereignty near the Natuna Islands in ongoing south china sea dispute.
Indonesia foreign affairs spokesman Teuku Faizasyah said Jakarta had taken note of Australia’s decision to acquire nuclear-powered submarines and stressed “Indonesia is deeply concerned over the continuing arms race and power projection in the region”.
“Indonesia stresses the importance of Australia’s commitment to continue meeting all of its nuclear non-proliferation obligations,” the statement said.
“Indonesia calls on Australia to maintain its commitment towards regional peace, stability and security in accordance with the Treaty of Amity and Cooperation the code of conduct between the Association of South-east Asian Nations.
Indonesia is deeply concerned over the continuing arms race and power projection in the region.
The proposed USA UK submarine deal would provide a platform that could launch ballistic missiles and therefore could carry and deliver nuclear weapons. The initial French submarine deal was based on a nuclear powered submarine that then PM Turnbull (another liar) proposed the submarine would be converted to conventionally diesel power.
America could not defend Australia, best as i can tell America will very likely be trading US$Peso sooner than later and this country is gunner go down with it. Your American PM is a clown Tom, first class clown, just like Biden and Morrison, very least liars, bloody idiots
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@tomcatty
worthy read PS: US-UK-Australia submarine deal is a dangerous joke which will only worsen geopolitical crisis with China
By:
Scott Ritter
Who is a former US Marine Corps intelligence officer and author of 'SCORPION KING: America's Suicidal Embrace of Nuclear Weapons from FDR to Trump.' He served in the Soviet Union as an inspector implementing the INF Treaty, in General Schwarzkopf’s staff during the Gulf War, and from 1991-1998 as a UN weapons inspector.
18 Sep, 2021 11:05
But the fact remains that the US has no meaningful military counter to China, the UK is not capable of sustaining any credible military presence in the Pacific, and Australia cannot afford to acquire and operate a force of eight nuclear-powered attack submarines. The Australian nuclear submarine project is a dangerous joke that only further exacerbates the existing geopolitical crisis with China by injecting a military dimension which will never see the light of day.
worthy read PS: US-UK-Australia submarine deal is a dangerous joke which will only worsen geopolitical crisis with China
By:
Scott Ritter
Who is a former US Marine Corps intelligence officer and author of 'SCORPION KING: America's Suicidal Embrace of Nuclear Weapons from FDR to Trump.' He served in the Soviet Union as an inspector implementing the INF Treaty, in General Schwarzkopf’s staff during the Gulf War, and from 1991-1998 as a UN weapons inspector.
18 Sep, 2021 11:05
But the fact remains that the US has no meaningful military counter to China, the UK is not capable of sustaining any credible military presence in the Pacific, and Australia cannot afford to acquire and operate a force of eight nuclear-powered attack submarines. The Australian nuclear submarine project is a dangerous joke that only further exacerbates the existing geopolitical crisis with China by injecting a military dimension which will never see the light of day.
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robplum: @tomcatty
worthy read PS: US-UK-Australia submarine deal is a dangerous joke which will only worsen geopolitical crisis with China
By:
Scott Ritter
Who is a former US Marine Corps intelligence officer and author of 'SCORPION KING: America's Suicidal Embrace of Nuclear Weapons from FDR to Trump.' He served in the Soviet Union as an inspector implementing the INF Treaty, in General Schwarzkopf’s staff during the Gulf War, and from 1991-1998 as a UN weapons inspector.
18 Sep, 2021 11:05
But the fact remains that the US has no meaningful military counter to China, the UK is not capable of sustaining any credible military presence in the Pacific, and Australia cannot afford to acquire and operate a force of eight nuclear-powered attack submarines. The Australian nuclear submarine project is a dangerous joke that only further exacerbates the existing geopolitical crisis with China by injecting a military dimension which will never see the light of day.
Australia could initially lease submarines from UK or US but nuclear weapons remain off limitsworthy read PS: US-UK-Australia submarine deal is a dangerous joke which will only worsen geopolitical crisis with China
By:
Scott Ritter
Who is a former US Marine Corps intelligence officer and author of 'SCORPION KING: America's Suicidal Embrace of Nuclear Weapons from FDR to Trump.' He served in the Soviet Union as an inspector implementing the INF Treaty, in General Schwarzkopf’s staff during the Gulf War, and from 1991-1998 as a UN weapons inspector.
18 Sep, 2021 11:05
But the fact remains that the US has no meaningful military counter to China, the UK is not capable of sustaining any credible military presence in the Pacific, and Australia cannot afford to acquire and operate a force of eight nuclear-powered attack submarines. The Australian nuclear submarine project is a dangerous joke that only further exacerbates the existing geopolitical crisis with China by injecting a military dimension which will never see the light of day.
Senior ministers confirm leasing nuclear-powered vessels from Aukus allies could be stop-gap solution until Australia takes delivery of its own submarines
Last modified on Sun 19 Sep 2021 07.08 BST
The short-term leasing of nuclear-powered submarines from the UK or the US is being considered by the Morrison government but the Coalition insists nuclear weapons won’t be based in Australia.
The finance minister, Simon Birmingham, and the defence minister, Peter Dutton, confirmed in seperate interviews on Sunday that leasing submarines from the Aukus allies could be a stop-gap solution until Australia takes delivery of its own – potentially in the 2040s.
“The short answer is yes,” Dutton said when asked on Sky News about leasing vessels.
Birmingham said leasing arrangements would not necessarily “increase the number of submarines and the capability across all of the partner nations” but would help with training and information sharing.
“Doing so may provide opportunities for us to train our sailors, provide the skills and knowledge in terms of how we operate,” he told the ABC.
“ [It would help] provide the platforms for us to upgrade the infrastructure in Perth, that will be necessary for the operation of these submarines. I expect we will see … lease arrangements or greater joint operations between our navies in the future that sees our sailors working more closely and indeed, potentially on UK and US vessels to get that skills and training and knowledge.”
Birmingham insisted there was no “quid pro quo” in Australia agreeing to step up its strategic relationship with the United Kingdom and the United States.
He insisted nuclear weapons would not be based within Australia’s jurisdiction.
“We’ve been clear, Australia’s position in relation to nuclear weapons does not change, will not change,” he said on Sunday.
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Sun, 19 September 2021, 4:13 am
New Foreign Secretary Liz Truss has defended the UK's "hard-headed" security pact with the US and Australia, amid a deepening diplomatic row with France.
The AUKUS deal saw the UK, Australia and the US form a security pact to develop and deploy a new fleet of nuclear-powered submarines, adding to the Western military presence in the Pacific region.
The UK's foreign secretary said the agreement showed Britain's readiness to be "hard-headed in defending our interests", adding that it could result in hundreds of new jobs.
Ms Truss's comments came as the French foreign minister accused pact members of "lies... duplicity" and a "major break in trust" and the UK of being a "spare tyre" in the partnership.
France was outraged by the deal which sees them losing out on a £48bn contract to supply conventional submarines to Australia, who opted for nuclear-powered subs provided by Britain and the US.
In response, they recalled their ambassadors to the US and Australia, although there was no similar order to return to Paris for the French envoy to London.
Writing in The Sunday Telegraph, Ms Truss made no mention of the diplomatic stand-off with the French.
In her article, Ms Truss said the agreement, widely seen as a counter to increasing Chinese military assertiveness in the region, underlined the UK's commitment to the Indo-Pacific.
She said Britain would always be a "fierce champion" of freedom and that the agreement illustrates the nation's commitment to "challenging unfair practices and malign acts".
"Freedoms need to be defended, so we are also building strong security ties around the world," she wrote.
"That is why last week the prime minister announced, alongside our friends President Biden and Prime Minister Morrison, the creation of a new security partnership called AUKUS.
"It shows our readiness to be hard-headed in defending our interests and challenging unfair practices and malign acts."
France's foreign minister Jean-Yves Le Drian said his country's decision to recall their ambassadors to the US and Australia showed the intensity of the crisis.
In an interview with France 2, he said: "There have been lies, there has been duplicity, there has been a major break of trust, there has been contempt, so it's not going well between us, not at all.
"We're recalling our ambassadors to try to understand, but also to show to our former partner countries that we have very strong discontent, really a serious crisis between us."
Later in the interview, he added: "We're recalling our ambassadors to see how we can re-evaluate the situation, but with Britain, we do not need to. We know their constant opportunism, so there's no use in having our ambassador (in Britain) come to explain that to us. In addition, Britain in this matter is quite the spare tyre."
Australia's Prime Minister Scott Morrison said he understood French disappointment but Australia needed to look after its interests.
He said: "Of course it's a matter of great disappointment to the French government, so I understand their disappointment. But at the same time, Australia like any sovereign nation must always take decisions that are in our sovereign national defence interest."
Gerard Araud, former French ambassador to the US, told Sky's Trevor Phillips on Sunday programme that French upset was not just about the loss of the submarine contract - it was because it has lost a strategic partnership it had hoped to build on in the Indo-Pacific region, having recently undertaken naval drills with India and Australia.
On Saturday, the president of the French National Assembly told Sky News that the bonds of friendship between France and the UK, US and Australia have been "tarnished" by the AUKUS pact.
Speaking while attending the G7 Speakers' Conference in Chorley, Lancashire, Richard Ferrand said: "I think it has somewhat tarnished the bonds of friendship that we have
New Foreign Secretary Liz Truss has defended the UK's "hard-headed" security pact with the US and Australia, amid a deepening diplomatic row with France.
The AUKUS deal saw the UK, Australia and the US form a security pact to develop and deploy a new fleet of nuclear-powered submarines, adding to the Western military presence in the Pacific region.
The UK's foreign secretary said the agreement showed Britain's readiness to be "hard-headed in defending our interests", adding that it could result in hundreds of new jobs.
Ms Truss's comments came as the French foreign minister accused pact members of "lies... duplicity" and a "major break in trust" and the UK of being a "spare tyre" in the partnership.
France was outraged by the deal which sees them losing out on a £48bn contract to supply conventional submarines to Australia, who opted for nuclear-powered subs provided by Britain and the US.
In response, they recalled their ambassadors to the US and Australia, although there was no similar order to return to Paris for the French envoy to London.
Writing in The Sunday Telegraph, Ms Truss made no mention of the diplomatic stand-off with the French.
In her article, Ms Truss said the agreement, widely seen as a counter to increasing Chinese military assertiveness in the region, underlined the UK's commitment to the Indo-Pacific.
She said Britain would always be a "fierce champion" of freedom and that the agreement illustrates the nation's commitment to "challenging unfair practices and malign acts".
"Freedoms need to be defended, so we are also building strong security ties around the world," she wrote.
"That is why last week the prime minister announced, alongside our friends President Biden and Prime Minister Morrison, the creation of a new security partnership called AUKUS.
"It shows our readiness to be hard-headed in defending our interests and challenging unfair practices and malign acts."
France's foreign minister Jean-Yves Le Drian said his country's decision to recall their ambassadors to the US and Australia showed the intensity of the crisis.
In an interview with France 2, he said: "There have been lies, there has been duplicity, there has been a major break of trust, there has been contempt, so it's not going well between us, not at all.
"We're recalling our ambassadors to try to understand, but also to show to our former partner countries that we have very strong discontent, really a serious crisis between us."
Later in the interview, he added: "We're recalling our ambassadors to see how we can re-evaluate the situation, but with Britain, we do not need to. We know their constant opportunism, so there's no use in having our ambassador (in Britain) come to explain that to us. In addition, Britain in this matter is quite the spare tyre."
Australia's Prime Minister Scott Morrison said he understood French disappointment but Australia needed to look after its interests.
He said: "Of course it's a matter of great disappointment to the French government, so I understand their disappointment. But at the same time, Australia like any sovereign nation must always take decisions that are in our sovereign national defence interest."
Gerard Araud, former French ambassador to the US, told Sky's Trevor Phillips on Sunday programme that French upset was not just about the loss of the submarine contract - it was because it has lost a strategic partnership it had hoped to build on in the Indo-Pacific region, having recently undertaken naval drills with India and Australia.
On Saturday, the president of the French National Assembly told Sky News that the bonds of friendship between France and the UK, US and Australia have been "tarnished" by the AUKUS pact.
Speaking while attending the G7 Speakers' Conference in Chorley, Lancashire, Richard Ferrand said: "I think it has somewhat tarnished the bonds of friendship that we have
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As long as they have a large torpedo, I'm all good with the deal.
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An official Australian government reporter, once upon a time not all that long ago publicly on television who asked told the then President of Indonesia Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono that Australia could probably land one…
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who asked error
who answered
who answered
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some people got short memories General / President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono in Australia parliament 2005
President Joko Widodo with fle behind his back (short memories)
President Joko Widodo with fle behind his back (short memories)
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