Whatever Happened To America Used To Support It's Own Defense Industry? ( Archived) (18)

Mar 6, 2008 10:11 PM CST Whatever Happened To America Used To Support It's Own Defense Industry?
Lionhearted1967
Lionhearted1967Lionhearted1967London, Ontario Canada143 Threads 10 Polls 9,887 Posts
Doesn't it make more sense to keep our defense technology in America and the manufacturing in America where it does the most for security, economically and etc?


Pentagon awards air tanker contract to EADS
By David Litterick
Last Updated: 12:39am GMT 04/03/2008



The Pentagon has come under heavy attack for putting "French jobs ahead of American jobs" following its decision to hand a $40bn (£20bn) air force contract to a European-backed consortium rather than US plane maker Boeing.

Cobham flies high on back of '$1bn boost'
News and analysis from the world's biggest defence companies
In a surprise announce-ment late on Friday, the Pentagon awarded a contract to build to build 179 air tankers - one of the largest defence contracts in history - to a consortium that includes Airbus.


Altitude slickness: an artist’s impression of a fighter jet refuelling from an A330 air tanker, built by a European consortium
Few analysts and defence experts had given Airbus - which is owned by EADS - much chance of winning. Boeing's existing links with the US military and political muscle in Washington had made it the clear frontrunner.

The move was a huge blow to Boeing and leading Democrat and Republican politicians pledged to pressure the government to reverse the decision.

"It's stunning to me that we would outsource the production of these airplanes to Europe instead of building them in America," said Republican senator Sam Brownback of Kansas, where Boeing has major operations. "I'll be calling upon the Secretary of Defence for a full debriefing."

The win by EADS has shocked the US political establishment because it will support thousands of jobs in Europe and in the UK, and generate billions of pounds worth of sales for European defence companies including Airbus and Cobham (see right).

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The wings for the tankers - a modified version of the A330 passenger jet - will be built at plants in Broughton and Filton, in the UK, securing around 9,000 jobs.

But Todd Tiahrt, a US congressman from Kansas, said the decision was unpatriotic. "We should have an American tanker built by an American company with American workers. I can't believe we would create French [and British] jobs in place of Kansas jobs."

He said he would seek a review of the decision "at the highest levels of the Pentagon" in the hope of reversing it.

Washington senator Patty Murray said she too would be pressuring the military to reconsider. "We are outraged that this decision taps European Airbus and its foreign workers to provide a tanker to our American military," she said. "At a time when our economy is hurting, this decision to outsource our tankers is a blow to the American aerospace industry, American workers and America's military."

Winning the initial 179-plane contract makes it more likely the EADS consortium will win contracts for the next stages of the programme, which are expected to see orders for as many as 500 planes and could be worth more than $100bn over time.

"Once we have reviewed the details behind the award, we will make a decision concerning our possible options," Boeing said.

It has 100 days to appeal. Boeing had won an earlier version of the air tanker contract but it was withdrawn after a series of procurement scandals. The Pentagon insisted that had nothing to do with its latest decision.

The contract is sure to become a major election campaign issue, with Democrats likely to seize on it as a reason why America should adopt more protectionist positions.

Boeing and the EADS-Northrop team had been competing for more than a year for the contract.
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Mar 6, 2008 10:15 PM CST Whatever Happened To America Used To Support It's Own Defense Industry?
Lionhearted1967
Lionhearted1967Lionhearted1967London, Ontario Canada143 Threads 10 Polls 9,887 Posts
Go to to vote against the outsourcing of US defense contracts. It not only undermines our technology but takes jobs away from our already hurting income.


You want to see more of how our defense contracts are hurting the american people look at this...


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Mar 6, 2008 10:16 PM CST Whatever Happened To America Used To Support It's Own Defense Industry?
Lionhearted1967
Lionhearted1967Lionhearted1967London, Ontario Canada143 Threads 10 Polls 9,887 Posts
Lionhearted1967: Go to to vote against the outsourcing of US defense contracts. It not only undermines our technology but takes jobs away from our already hurting income. You want to see more of how our defense contracts are hurting the american people look at this...http://www.boston.com/news/world/articles/2008/03/06/top_iraq_contractor_skirts_us_taxes_offshore/



THEN............


Look back at the history of these corporations and who were involved...start with the Carlyle group before you go to Haliburton.
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Mar 6, 2008 10:17 PM CST Whatever Happened To America Used To Support It's Own Defense Industry?
Lionhearted1967
Lionhearted1967Lionhearted1967London, Ontario Canada143 Threads 10 Polls 9,887 Posts
Then ask yourself if our government wre not in direct "CONFLICT OF INTEREST"...deep deeper too!
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Mar 6, 2008 10:18 PM CST Whatever Happened To America Used To Support It's Own Defense Industry?
Skeptikos
SkeptikosSkeptikosGreenville, South Carolina USA19 Threads 745 Posts
As my quite intelligent dead brother used to frequently say, "Follow the money." This is a job reporters with brass balls or anyone else who is not afraid to push far enough to find out who's getting the money.

It's always the money.
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Mar 6, 2008 10:20 PM CST Whatever Happened To America Used To Support It's Own Defense Industry?
shipoker55
shipoker55shipoker55St. Petersburg, Florida USA211 Threads 2 Polls 9,362 Posts
EADS uses just as many foriegn parts as does Boeing. There are no completely "American" companies. Do the research on these contractors and you will see that all are working with foreign parts.

I listened to Sen Shelby from Alabama speak about this issue. He is a right wing and pro American as you can get. He even supports the contracts with EADS
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Mar 6, 2008 10:41 PM CST Whatever Happened To America Used To Support It's Own Defense Industry?
Lionhearted1967
Lionhearted1967Lionhearted1967London, Ontario Canada143 Threads 10 Polls 9,887 Posts
Skeptikos: As my quite intelligent dead brother used to frequently say, "Follow the money." This is a job reporters with brass balls or anyone else who is not afraid to push far enough to find out who's getting the money.

It's always the money.



Well..yeah...We have to follow the money to see the good and the bad. This is not good though. Defense contracts in America have been for the most part American made. American made means=jobs. It equals=security.


Then you see crap like this..





Just look at the "Carlyle Group", "Haliburton", the history of who is involved in these corportaions and then ask yourself if our government isn't acing on a "Conflict of interests" as far as the leader goes.
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Mar 6, 2008 10:42 PM CST Whatever Happened To America Used To Support It's Own Defense Industry?
Lionhearted1967
Lionhearted1967Lionhearted1967London, Ontario Canada143 Threads 10 Polls 9,887 Posts
Lionhearted1967: Well..yeah...We have to follow the money to see the good and the bad. This is not good though. Defense contracts in America have been for the most part American made. American made means=jobs. It equals=security. Then you see crap like this..http://www.boston.com/news/world/articles/2008/03/06/top_iraq_contractor_skirts_us_taxes_offshore/Just look at the "Carlyle Group", "Haliburton", the history of who is involved in these corportaions and then ask yourself if our government isn't acing on a "Conflict of interests" as far as the leader goes.



If there is anything the bible wasn't more correct in is that it says.."Money Is The Root Of ALL Evil"!
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Mar 6, 2008 10:46 PM CST Whatever Happened To America Used To Support It's Own Defense Industry?
Lionhearted1967
Lionhearted1967Lionhearted1967London, Ontario Canada143 Threads 10 Polls 9,887 Posts
Im WW2 our economy was made strong by Americans being employed making our own defense products. Not that making war should be an excuse to boost the economy like Vietnam was but if we are engaged then who better than American citizens employed to make the products that are needed. Why would you outsource technology is another question.


I hear this and that about Reagan. That was the start of all this crap! He sold us out!
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Mar 6, 2008 10:51 PM CST Whatever Happened To America Used To Support It's Own Defense Industry?
j_goose
j_goosej_goosenorthfield, Ohio USA49 Threads 3 Polls 1,239 Posts
Lionhearted1967: Im WW2 our economy was made strong by Americans being employed making our own defense products. Not that making war should be an excuse to boost the economy like Vietnam was but if we are engaged then who better than American citizens employed to make the products that are needed. Why would you outsource technology is another question. I hear this and that about Reagan. That was the start of all this crap! He sold us out!


I'm not defending the government outsorcing by any means, let me make that clear first.

Now, The $ amounts you site....Is it cheaper to have another counrty make it and sell it to us, or more expensive.

Here's my point, When I make a big purchase, I check out competitor's prices before I buy.

Again, I am totally against the outsorsing of jobs, just throwing out a different view....
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Mar 6, 2008 10:51 PM CST Whatever Happened To America Used To Support It's Own Defense Industry?
shipoker55
shipoker55shipoker55St. Petersburg, Florida USA211 Threads 2 Polls 9,362 Posts
Lionhearted1967: If there is anything the bible wasn't more correct in is that it says.."Money Is The Root Of ALL Evil"!




That is not what the Bible says!!



The LOVE of moey is the root of all evil!!professor
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Mar 6, 2008 10:52 PM CST Whatever Happened To America Used To Support It's Own Defense Industry?
shipoker55
shipoker55shipoker55St. Petersburg, Florida USA211 Threads 2 Polls 9,362 Posts
moneydoh
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Mar 6, 2008 10:57 PM CST Whatever Happened To America Used To Support It's Own Defense Industry?
Lionhearted1967
Lionhearted1967Lionhearted1967London, Ontario Canada143 Threads 10 Polls 9,887 Posts
shipoker55: That is not what the Bible says!!
The LOVE of moey is the root of all evil!!


It says..Those that are led astray sow the root of evil. Not all are. Some are generous but it referes to those that are insatatiable... (those are the ones who will either sliut an innocent man's throat literally or symbolically for the prospect of making a dollar bill)

There are one the other hand, those who prosper and spread their wealth because they see a moral obligation.

Unfortunately, you see alot of the latter. I guess things haven't changed much since the bible was written..laugh
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Mar 6, 2008 10:58 PM CST Whatever Happened To America Used To Support It's Own Defense Industry?
Lionhearted1967
Lionhearted1967Lionhearted1967London, Ontario Canada143 Threads 10 Polls 9,887 Posts
Lionhearted1967: It says..Those that are led astray sow the root of evil. Not all are. Some are generous but it referes to those that are insatatiable... (those are the ones who will either sliut an innocent man's throat literally or symbolically for the prospect of making a dollar bill)

There are one the other hand, those who prosper and spread their wealth because they see a moral obligation.

Unfortunately, you see alot of the latter. I guess things haven't changed much since the bible was written..


Dang!..I need to spellcheck!!grin
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Mar 6, 2008 11:03 PM CST Whatever Happened To America Used To Support It's Own Defense Industry?
Lionhearted1967
Lionhearted1967Lionhearted1967London, Ontario Canada143 Threads 10 Polls 9,887 Posts
Anyway...It used to be that American workers manufactured what our soldiers used. Nowadays, we outsource and give jobs away where Americans have been capable for decades and centuries of doing for ourselves and running an already fragile economy more into the ground. We compromise our technology to foreign countries and put pur security in the hands of different nations.

I see alot of betrayal to the people of America for the sake of a dollar bill.
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Mar 7, 2008 1:27 AM CST Whatever Happened To America Used To Support It's Own Defense Industry?
Sparky55
Sparky55Sparky55Somewhere, Afghanistan48 Threads 1 Polls 2,678 Posts
Lionhearted1967: Anyway...It used to be that American workers manufactured what our soldiers used. Nowadays, we outsource and give jobs away where Americans have been capable for decades and centuries of doing for ourselves and running an already fragile economy more into the ground. We compromise our technology to foreign countries and put pur security in the hands of different nations.

I see alot of betrayal to the people of America for the sake of a dollar bill.


Yes but I think that's only one side of the story. Perhaps if the big companies in the US were not so greedy, they could probably provide the goods and/or services the military needs at less costs than their competition which would land them the defense contracts.

It's true we cannot compete with some of the 3rd world countries because of labor costs in the US versus their labor costs. In this case however as is the case when we talk about advanced technology, we are talking about work force costs of about the same (Europe vs US). I can only conclude that the reason the US companies aren't getting the fat defense contracts is because they have greedy.

Like you, I would much rather see this industry kept in the US but if we are going spend money on our military for upgrades it would seem that we would want the best product at the cheapest price. To do otherwise would be fiscally irresponsible.

We already do this in several areas. The Fly America Act is a great example. I live most of my life overseas and it involves a lot of travel. when I travel for the government, I am required to fly a US based air carrier (if available) In almost every case, these flights are much more expensive. This done in the name of protecting US Air Carriers. It makes no sense and the amount of money we spend doing it is crazy.

Anyway, JMO.
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Mar 7, 2008 1:52 AM CST Whatever Happened To America Used To Support It's Own Defense Industry?
Lionhearted1967
Lionhearted1967Lionhearted1967London, Ontario Canada143 Threads 10 Polls 9,887 Posts
Sparky55: Yes but I think that's only one side of the story. Perhaps if the big companies in the US were not so greedy, they could probably provide the goods and/or services the military needs at less costs than their competition which would land them the defense contracts.

It's true we cannot compete with some of the 3rd world countries because of labor costs in the US versus their labor costs. In this case however as is the case when we talk about advanced technology, we are talking about work force costs of about the same (Europe vs US). I can only conclude that the reason the US companies aren't getting the fat defense contracts is because they have greedy.

Like you, I would much rather see this industry kept in the US but if we are going spend money on our military for upgrades it would seem that we would want the best product at the cheapest price. To do otherwise would be fiscally irresponsible.

We already do this in several areas. The Fly America Act is a great example. I live most of my life overseas and it involves a lot of travel. when I travel for the government, I am required to fly a US based air carrier (if available) In almost every case, these flights are much more expensive. This done in the name of protecting US Air Carriers. It makes no sense and the amount of money we spend doing it is crazy.

Well..NAFTA was suposed to be originally about trading on our own side of the hemisphere.

We relied on Mexico for things and we relied on tnings that we should of just kept in our own country. The things that are tied to our vested interests. I don't understand why we are relying on China with allk their flaws and blatent disregard for our qulaity. Not to mention the cost of sending our own native supplies over seas to have them send crap that is dangerous back to us.

I would much rather see things manufactured in Mexico, which is cheaper to send raw materials, Keeps am incentive to stay in their country and retain the most sensitive quality jobs that our reputation depends on with the American people. Is there anything wrong with that?

Instaed of getting crap from China..I would rather get crap from Mexico!!!

Anyway, JMO.
grin
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Mar 7, 2008 6:44 AM CST Whatever Happened To America Used To Support It's Own Defense Industry?
TTom50
TTom50TTom50Orlando, Florida USA21 Threads 10 Polls 1,301 Posts
Lionheart, you miss the mission point of the decision.

The Airbus has twice the fuel load size of the Boeing KC-135 tanker.
Meaning you can refuel twice as many aircraft and helo from the one
Airbus tanker, than the Boeing tanker. In air battlefield tactics that gives the Air Force more aircraft, it can deploy. Gives them longer operating ranges, and gives them longer mission flight times. All important in air wars.

Considering that they are teaming with Northrup and will make US jobs there. And are using GE engines that are American made. Making a plant in S/E US to support and assemble them. Sounds like a win/win to me. I think that I would go Airbus on this one as well.jmo
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