The Power of Prayer? (105)
::whistles and tip toes back out::::
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Claayer: ::whistles and tip toes back out::::
Jeez...thanks a lot, Claire. I was counting on you to have my back in this discussion!
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In a word NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Ambrose2007: "When I was back there in seminary school, there was a person there who put forth the proposition that you can petition the Lord with prayer... You cannot petition the Lord with prayer! ."
-- Jim Morrison
It's common to offer prayers for those in need (especially on CS), but I wonder how many have considered the deeper logical implications of this practice.
For one, do you believe than anyone's life or welfare should be at the mercy of how many prayers were offered on their behalf? Should their welfare be a function of some kind of popular vote (if you don't offer a prayer for someone, is it more likely that God will allow them to die or their suffering to continue?).
Also, do you have the right to materially affect someone else's life through your thoughts? For example, if you pray for a particular event - one that presumably favors your values - if it were granted wouldn't that involve imposing your will on others? Sometimes that might be justifiable, but surely not just because it's something you want to see happen?
Does it make sense to believe that an infinitely intelligent being benefits from your entreaties and/or counsel? Would it not already know the correct course of action?
Jeff
-- Jim Morrison
It's common to offer prayers for those in need (especially on CS), but I wonder how many have considered the deeper logical implications of this practice.
For one, do you believe than anyone's life or welfare should be at the mercy of how many prayers were offered on their behalf? Should their welfare be a function of some kind of popular vote (if you don't offer a prayer for someone, is it more likely that God will allow them to die or their suffering to continue?).
Also, do you have the right to materially affect someone else's life through your thoughts? For example, if you pray for a particular event - one that presumably favors your values - if it were granted wouldn't that involve imposing your will on others? Sometimes that might be justifiable, but surely not just because it's something you want to see happen?
Does it make sense to believe that an infinitely intelligent being benefits from your entreaties and/or counsel? Would it not already know the correct course of action?
Jeff
Good question. Implications are far reaching. The ability to influence seemingly has no boundaries save the one's we place for ourselves. The same question came up for me once, knowing how we are tied in collective thought.
I think we are unable to 'think' through another's boundaries though. I person will only accept those thoughts or thoughts from people that they want?
Just guessing of course but I wonder how this affects my constant fantasies with Cindi Lauper .... is she screaming ( I mean singing)because of me?
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Hugz_n_Kissez: In a word NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!
But Hugsy...to what question are you replying to?
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Well at the risk of being fried in the fires of CS hell... haha
I can't really answer much to any of it.. Being a non believer (in ANY kind of god).. I see prayers as no more than people's 'Thoughts' .. Stuff that goes on in their head.. good wishes.. good thoughts.. but nothing that can influence anything physical.. in any way shape of form.
So for me, personally.. I can't see them influencing anything.. good or bad.
I do respect other people's views on prayers.. and praying.
and I expect people to respect my views too.
Soo.. don't attack me for my views.. as I don't attack you for YOURS.
I can't really answer much to any of it.. Being a non believer (in ANY kind of god).. I see prayers as no more than people's 'Thoughts' .. Stuff that goes on in their head.. good wishes.. good thoughts.. but nothing that can influence anything physical.. in any way shape of form.
So for me, personally.. I can't see them influencing anything.. good or bad.
I do respect other people's views on prayers.. and praying.
and I expect people to respect my views too.
Soo.. don't attack me for my views.. as I don't attack you for YOURS.
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Coz I'm not in the mood for a bloody argument! 
Oh... or maybe I am..
Oh... or maybe I am..
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Thats everyone praying for my legs to fall off tonight then.. 
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Ambrose2007: But Hugsy...to what question are you replying to?
I don't know was just trying to argue....
I'll answer right then:....
The power of prayer...well I suppose since it works...It's more than lkely to foster positivity and postive energy toward said person....Honestly I don't think prayers will effect something that is already set to happen or that prayer can alter any persons free-will...so as afar as havng a right to alter a persons life...I don't think we are neccesarliy altering anything that is not meant to already happen!!!!!!!!
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Ambrose2007:
For one, do you believe than anyone's life or welfare should be at the mercy of how many prayers were offered on their behalf? Should their welfare be a function of some kind of popular vote (if you don't offer a prayer for someone, is it more likely that God will allow them to die or their suffering to continue?).
For one, do you believe than anyone's life or welfare should be at the mercy of how many prayers were offered on their behalf? Should their welfare be a function of some kind of popular vote (if you don't offer a prayer for someone, is it more likely that God will allow them to die or their suffering to continue?).
I think this is likely all down to chance. Assuming there is a god, what he wants would be paramount? If not, then there's the desire of the one being prayed for to account for. Does it matter to them that people have gathered on their behalf?
In response to:
Also, do you have the right to materially affect someone else's life through your thoughts? For example, if you pray for a particular event - one that presumably favors your values - if it were granted wouldn't that involve imposing your will on others? Sometimes that might be justifiable, but surely not just because it's something you want to see happen?
Also, do you have the right to materially affect someone else's life through your thoughts? For example, if you pray for a particular event - one that presumably favors your values - if it were granted wouldn't that involve imposing your will on others? Sometimes that might be justifiable, but surely not just because it's something you want to see happen?
Do we have those rights in reality, separate from thoughts? We impose our will on others daily, without thought for others, life is basically a selfish event, even wanting another to be well is self derived, though I agfain I dont think we can impose beyond the boundaries of anothers will, in thoughts or reality.
In response to:
Does it make sense to believe that an infinitely intelligent being benefits from your entreaties and/or counsel? Would it not already know the correct course of action?
Jeff
Does it make sense to believe that an infinitely intelligent being benefits from your entreaties and/or counsel? Would it not already know the correct course of action?
Jeff
This would be true assuming there is an infinitely intelligent being. Again we have self to consider and the self wants things to happen.
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Hugz_n_Kissez: I don't know was just trying to argue....
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Claayer: Helooooo
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Hugz_n_Kissez: I don't know was just trying to argue....
I'll answer right then:.... The power of prayer...well I suppose since it works...It's more than lkely to foster positivity and postive energy toward said person....Honestly I don't think prayers will effect something that is already set to happen or that prayer can alter any persons free-will...so as afar as havng a right to alter a persons life...I don't think we are neccesarliy altering anything that is not meant to already happen!!!!!!!!
I'll answer right then:.... The power of prayer...well I suppose since it works...It's more than lkely to foster positivity and postive energy toward said person....Honestly I don't think prayers will effect something that is already set to happen or that prayer can alter any persons free-will...so as afar as havng a right to alter a persons life...I don't think we are neccesarliy altering anything that is not meant to already happen!!!!!!!!
Hmmm...sounds like you're suggesting a form of determinism, HK?
I happen to think determinism (at least my conception of it) is correct, so we may not have much to argue about. 
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Claayer: hahaha and no.. not to me.
Thats why I stay out of the religion threads.. it's not something that interests me.
Thats why I stay out of the religion threads.. it's not something that interests me.
Yeah, I've noticed that you usually don't get involved, sweetie, and I'm glad you're getting involved in this one, either, because it might get us both in a bit of a "sticky wicket" (whatever the hell that means)
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Claayer: You are a great mum! and on the flip side of that story..
I prayed for 10yrs that my husbands arms would fall off.. and his mouth would seal shut..
But it never happened..
ten years!
I prayed for 10yrs that my husbands arms would fall off.. and his mouth would seal shut..
But it never happened..
ten years!
I threw a penny down a well...
Actually, it was a storm drain
Wishing that my third husband would vanish.
He committed suicide a few months later.
Perhaps I have missed my calling in life
PS I did mourn him since he did care about his son...my youngest who of all people really needed a father...so many sad stories
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Claayer: You are a great mum! and on the flip side of that story..
I prayed for 10yrs that my husbands arms would fall off.. and his mouth would seal shut..
But it never happened..
ten years!
I prayed for 10yrs that my husbands arms would fall off.. and his mouth would seal shut..
But it never happened..
ten years!
Claire! I have a deep belief in God, but now consider myself far more spiritual if anything else. As a rancher I find that I pray for many things- the health and happiness of friends and family, for a good hay crop, for the health and well-being of my pets and livestock, for rain, for sunshine and any other reason that may come up. I have Faith that my prayers will be answered and sometimes they are and sometimes they aren't. I suppose it's because God (or whom/what one believes in) determines that in the end. I have learned to accept that and to go on by saying, "Ok, fine, fair enough" and going on to something else. Some things are just beyond my power and there's other things and people to pray for.
What's great about faith and life is that I have many friends of all faiths and some of no faith at all. What's really cool is that we all learn something from one another.
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arabella: I threw a penny down a well...
Actually, it was a storm drain
Wishing that my third husband would vanish.
He committed suicide a few months later.
Perhaps I have missed my calling in life PS I did mourn him since he did care about his son...my youngest who of all people really needed a father...so many sad stories
Actually, it was a storm drain
Wishing that my third husband would vanish.
He committed suicide a few months later.
Perhaps I have missed my calling in life PS I did mourn him since he did care about his son...my youngest who of all people really needed a father...so many sad stories
Shshweeesh!... maybe there IS something in it then..
I'm sorry for your sad stories.. You really DO seem to be such a wonderful mum! Perhaps as sad as they are.. they have helped make you such a brilliant parent.
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AnAngelAlways: Claire!
I have a deep belief in God, but now consider myself far more spiritual if anything else. As a rancher I find that I pray for many things- the health and happiness of friends and family, for a good hay crop, for the health and well-being of my pets and livestock, for rain, for sunshine and any other reason that may come up. I have Faith that my prayers will be answered and sometimes they are and sometimes they aren't. I suppose it's because God (or whom/what one believes in) determines that in the end. I have learned to accept that and to go on by saying, "Ok, fine, fair enough" and going on to something else. Some things are just beyond my power and there's other things and people to pray for.
What's great about faith and life is that I have many friends of all faiths and some of no faith at all. What's really cool is that we all learn something from one another.
I have a deep belief in God, but now consider myself far more spiritual if anything else. As a rancher I find that I pray for many things- the health and happiness of friends and family, for a good hay crop, for the health and well-being of my pets and livestock, for rain, for sunshine and any other reason that may come up. I have Faith that my prayers will be answered and sometimes they are and sometimes they aren't. I suppose it's because God (or whom/what one believes in) determines that in the end. I have learned to accept that and to go on by saying, "Ok, fine, fair enough" and going on to something else. Some things are just beyond my power and there's other things and people to pray for.
What's great about faith and life is that I have many friends of all faiths and some of no faith at all. What's really cool is that we all learn something from one another.
Absolutely!
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maybe i sho!uld have said 'supposedly'
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-- Jim Morrison
It's common to offer prayers for those in need (especially on CS), but I wonder how many have considered the deeper logical implications of this practice.
For one, do you believe than anyone's life or welfare should be at the mercy of how many prayers were offered on their behalf? Should their welfare be a function of some kind of popular vote (if you don't offer a prayer for someone, is it more likely that God will allow them to die or their suffering to continue?).
Also, do you have the right to materially affect someone else's life through your thoughts? For example, if you pray for a particular event - one that presumably favors your values - if it were granted wouldn't that involve imposing your will on others? Sometimes that might be justifiable, but surely not just because it's something you want to see happen?
Does it make sense to believe that an infinitely intelligent being benefits from your entreaties and/or counsel? Would it not already know the correct course of action?
Jeff