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Ammunition To Use Against the “New, Improved” Bailout Proposal ( Archived) (17)

Sep 30, 2008 12:37 PM CST Ammunition To Use Against the “New, Improved” Bailout Proposal
Magnetic
MagneticMagneticgreensboro, North Carolina USA88 Threads 172 Posts
Tuesday, Sept 30, 2008

The financial elite will propose a “new, improved” version of the bailout bill in the next couple of days. Here is some advanced ammunition to use against the proposal:

Paulson and Congress pretended that the first bailout bill capped the initial round of funding to $200 billion, and capped executive compensation. However, treasury officials have admitted (when they thought the public wasn’t listening) that the restrictions on disbursing more than 200 big ones and CEO compensation were lies that wouldn’t be enforced (you can listen to their statements yourself: here’s part 1 of 5)
The boys pretended that the bailout was limited to $700 billion. But that was not true (see the final vesion of the bailout proposal on page 40). Indeed, a Bloomberg analyst says that the bailout could balloon to $5 trillion dollars. And remember that “in the months before the March 2003 Iraq invasion, the Bush administration estimated the Iraq war would cost no more than $50 billion“, but it will end up costing at least $3 trillion dollars
The snake oil salesmen said the bailout was needed to save the economy. But most experts who have looked at the bailout said it wasn’t needed, wouldn’t have worked, and would actually have made the economic crisis worse
Unless the new bailout proposal will actually help Americans, use the above proven lies by the proponents of the original bailout monster to argue that the liars cannot be believed, and that the fruit of the poisonous tree is itself poisonous.
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Sep 30, 2008 1:00 PM CST Ammunition To Use Against the “New, Improved” Bailout Proposal
Sparky55
Sparky55Sparky55Somewhere, Afghanistan68 Threads 1 Polls 4,749 Posts
Magnetic: Tuesday, Sept 30, 2008

The financial elite will propose a “new, improved” version of the bailout bill in the next couple of days. Here is some advanced ammunition to use against the proposal:

Paulson and Congress pretended that the first bailout bill capped the initial round of funding to $200 billion, and capped executive compensation. However, treasury officials have admitted (when they thought the public wasn’t listening) that the restrictions on disbursing more than 200 big ones and CEO compensation were lies that wouldn’t be enforced (you can listen to their statements yourself: here’s part 1 of 5)
The boys pretended that the bailout was limited to $700 billion. But that was not true (see the final vesion of the bailout proposal on page 40). Indeed, a Bloomberg analyst says that the bailout could balloon to $5 trillion dollars. And remember that “in the months before the March 2003 Iraq invasion, the Bush administration estimated the Iraq war would cost no more than $50 billion“, but it will end up costing at least $3 trillion dollars
The snake oil salesmen said the bailout was needed to save the economy. But most experts who have looked at the bailout said it wasn’t needed, wouldn’t have worked, and would actually have made the economic crisis worse
Unless the new bailout proposal will actually help Americans, use the above proven lies by the proponents of the original bailout monster to argue that the liars cannot be believed, and that the fruit of the poisonous tree is itself poisonous.


Good post, most people are less concerned with the actual content of the bill than they are of the mumbo jumbo political posturing going along with it. Seems the public is reacting more to a presidential election than they are on the cause and appropriate action to take to the current economic problem.
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Sep 30, 2008 2:06 PM CST Ammunition To Use Against the “New, Improved” Bailout Proposal
ttom500
ttom500ttom500St. Cloud, Florida USA39 Threads 7 Polls 16,471 Posts
Magnetic: Tuesday, Sept 30, 2008

The financial elite will propose a “new, improved” version of the bailout bill in the next couple of days. Here is some advanced ammunition to use against the proposal:

Paulson and Congress pretended that the first bailout bill capped the initial round of funding to $200 billion, and capped executive compensation. However, treasury officials have admitted (when they thought the public wasn’t listening) that the restrictions on disbursing more than 200 big ones and CEO compensation were lies that wouldn’t be enforced (you can listen to their statements yourself: here’s part 1 of 5)
The boys pretended that the bailout was limited to $700 billion. But that was not true (see the final vesion of the bailout proposal on page 40). Indeed, a Bloomberg analyst says that the bailout could balloon to $5 trillion dollars. And remember that “in the months before the March 2003 Iraq invasion, the Bush administration estimated the Iraq war would cost no more than $50 billion“, but it will end up costing at least $3 trillion dollars
The snake oil salesmen said the bailout was needed to save the economy. But most experts who have looked at the bailout said it wasn’t needed, wouldn’t have worked, and would actually have made the economic crisis worse
Unless the new bailout proposal will actually help Americans, use the above proven lies by the proponents of the original bailout monster to argue that the liars cannot be believed, and that the fruit of the poisonous tree is itself poisonous.



Sounds to me like a good reason for the first o ne to fail in the House.
All legislation that is over 15 pages in length, has loop holes, special coniditions, earmarks and other provisions that should not be there.

Look at the legislation written by our forefathers sometime.

It was sharp and crisp. To the point and the situation.

They did not dice it up with a lot of words that made it hard to interpret.

But today's Congress....when they present to us is saying.....

This highly complex......took hours of negotiations.....through research was done.....and then when it is presented, it is a bill....that 200 pages long...with fine print that you need a magnifying glass to read.

If you wish a big reason why Washington is borken there it is. The agencies that put the bill into a effect......now have 200 pages of complex regulations to enforce and to intrepret. Most of the senior SES of an agency time.....is doing just that....trying to make his department meet the legislation reg it operates under.

Are things complex.....sure not saying that they are not. But why make the laws that the country lives under so complex it takes a battrey of PhD types, attroneys, and or technilal specialist to achieve that?

I have wandered off point...sorry ......my feeling is that the economic redo....whether is loans, creditlines, insurance program, or bailout....needs to written simply and concise with easy language for all to understand. That way your oversight and transperency can work on it.
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Sep 30, 2008 7:52 PM CST Ammunition To Use Against the “New, Improved” Bailout Proposal
YetAnotherUser
YetAnotherUserYetAnotherUserWyandotte (Detroit), Michigan USA7 Threads 4 Polls 143 Posts
Most of the clauses are just unenforceable mumbo-jumbo (to use another's terms). For example...

The "supposed" "Golden Parachute elimination"...
The clauses "Cap" them to "reasonable and prudent"... Care to figure what that means?... NOTHING, of course... open to interpretation and thereby VAGUE and would not be enforceable... as if they would try to enforce it anyway... The only way it would be of any value would be
1. A FORMULA that factors the NET WORTH of the entity, length of service of moron on way out, profit/loss during time served (if loss, then clown should receive ZERO, of course), etc...
2. Defines an actual enforcement agency... SEC or Congress directly (pick a committee, of course they will NOT ever hold themselves accountable and up for scrutiny of the General Public being able to review their Congress-person's voting record on how they enforce, or lack-thereof, these "Golden Parachute" packages)...
etc... I think you get the point

Really, I don't have the time or the interest to go into all the countless specifics of why this is a steaming pile of .... well, you get it.

They've desperately tried to cover up the how/why we got here...

after 1.2 million views they pulled the original... see before they find some excuse to cover this up again...
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Sep 30, 2008 7:58 PM CST Ammunition To Use Against the “New, Improved” Bailout Proposal
Sparky55
Sparky55Sparky55Somewhere, Afghanistan68 Threads 1 Polls 4,749 Posts
YetAnotherUser: Most of the clauses are just unenforceable mumbo-jumbo (to use another's terms). For example...

The "supposed" "Golden Parachute elimination"...
The clauses "Cap" them to "reasonable and prudent"... Care to figure what that means?... NOTHING, of course... open to interpretation and thereby VAGUE and would not be enforceable... as if they would try to enforce it anyway... The only way it would be of any value would be
1. A FORMULA that factors the NET WORTH of the entity, length of service of moron on way out, profit/loss during time served (if loss, then clown should receive ZERO, of course), etc...
2. Defines an actual enforcement agency... SEC or Congress directly (pick a committee, of course they will NOT ever hold themselves accountable and up for scrutiny of the General Public being able to review their Congress-person's voting record on how they enforce, or lack-thereof, these "Golden Parachute" packages)...
etc... I think you get the point

Really, I don't have the time or the interest to go into all the countless specifics of why this is a steaming pile of .... well, you get it.

They've desperately tried to cover up the how/why we got here...

after 1.2 million views they pulled the original... see before they find some excuse to cover this up again...


I saw the video. Not really surprised Time Warner had it pulled.
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Sep 30, 2008 8:07 PM CST Ammunition To Use Against the “New, Improved” Bailout Proposal
Indyfella
IndyfellaIndyfellaindianapolis, Indiana USA230 Threads 9 Polls 27,698 Posts
Sparky55: I saw the video. Not really surprised Time Warner had it pulled.


Catch Hannity and Colmes tonight... They'll get you up to speed on the whole mess thumbs up
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Sep 30, 2008 8:08 PM CST Ammunition To Use Against the “New, Improved” Bailout Proposal
Darkhorseman
DarkhorsemanDarkhorsemanGladstonia ... it's a strange, Queensland Australia54 Threads 4 Polls 2,063 Posts
What it comes down to is the rich capitalists have got richer on the backs of the worker. The value of their wealth has depended on various real estate and share deals that have been given false value by the capitalist elite (Billionaires today ... a couple of million only makes you middle class). Finaly they have cme to a point where the inflated value of real estate and shares is such that the average worker (where all the wealth is actually created) cannnot afford the real estate of blue chip shares to prepare for their retirement. Hence they stop buying.

And who is meant to bail these pricks out! The average worker with their tax dollars.
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Sep 30, 2008 8:09 PM CST Ammunition To Use Against the “New, Improved” Bailout Proposal
YetAnotherUser
YetAnotherUserYetAnotherUserWyandotte (Detroit), Michigan USA7 Threads 4 Polls 143 Posts
Sparky55: I saw the video. Not really surprised Time Warner had it pulled.


This is actually a new link, it has been reworked to get around the "copyright" excuse (see "Fair Use Act" via google and/or my thread here re: Burning Down The House)... So, it is back online, for now, for people to review until new excuse to pull it is dreamt up by Time Warner (which is in for more than $300k to Obama campaign)
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Sep 30, 2008 8:19 PM CST Ammunition To Use Against the “New, Improved” Bailout Proposal
YetAnotherUser
YetAnotherUserYetAnotherUserWyandotte (Detroit), Michigan USA7 Threads 4 Polls 143 Posts
Indyfella: Catch Hannity and Colmes tonight... They'll get you up to speed on the whole mess


lol... yes, but this "video" gives you the information from "independant" sources and helps people along to be able to reference the information for themselves... Many, as you know, will dismiss it for/as "Spin" if they don't see the information/facts for themselves... Many others, of course, will do anything to avoid seeing the Facts because it will get in their way of "Feeling" they way they do, they can't be bothered taking the time to "reach an INFORMED opinion."



And you certainly aren't going to see any of this information on the Communist News Network (CNN), PMSnbc, National Barrack Channel (NBC), etc...
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Sep 30, 2008 8:23 PM CST Ammunition To Use Against the “New, Improved” Bailout Proposal
Darkhorseman
DarkhorsemanDarkhorsemanGladstonia ... it's a strange, Queensland Australia54 Threads 4 Polls 2,063 Posts
YetAnotherUser: Most of the clauses are just unenforceable mumbo-jumbo (to use another's terms). For example...

The "supposed" "Golden Parachute elimination"...
The clauses "Cap" them to "reasonable and prudent"... Care to figure what that means?... NOTHING, of course... open to interpretation and thereby VAGUE and would not be enforceable... as if they would try to enforce it anyway... The only way it would be of any value would be
1. A FORMULA that factors the NET WORTH of the entity, length of service of moron on way out, profit/loss during time served (if loss, then clown should receive ZERO, of course), etc...
2. Defines an actual enforcement agency... SEC or Congress directly (pick a committee, of course they will NOT ever hold themselves accountable and up for scrutiny of the General Public being able to review their Congress-person's voting record on how they enforce, or lack-thereof, these "Golden Parachute" packages)...
etc... I think you get the point

Really, I don't have the time or the interest to go into all the countless specifics of why this is a steaming pile of .... well, you get it.

They've desperately tried to cover up the how/why we got here...

after 1.2 million views they pulled the original... see before they find some excuse to cover this up again...


OK, I watched your You Tube video. And there is blame to be laid on passing legislation which is not supportable in the real World. But there is also blame to be laid on speculators who artificially inflate prices of ecconomic necessities and expect to be able to get away with it indefinitely. That too is living outside the real World.
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Sep 30, 2008 8:28 PM CST Ammunition To Use Against the “New, Improved” Bailout Proposal
Darkhorseman
DarkhorsemanDarkhorsemanGladstonia ... it's a strange, Queensland Australia54 Threads 4 Polls 2,063 Posts
The US ecconomy (and most First World nations as well) do not have the engagement of their whoel population in the ecconomy. It is only the "Haves" wo are engaged. The "Have Nots" are just surviving as best they can. Ironically the "Haves" now have to feed off the "Haves" as the "Have Nots" are just skin and bone.
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Sep 30, 2008 8:33 PM CST Ammunition To Use Against the “New, Improved” Bailout Proposal
Indyfella
IndyfellaIndyfellaindianapolis, Indiana USA230 Threads 9 Polls 27,698 Posts
YetAnotherUser: lol... yes, but this "video" gives you the information from "independant" sources and helps people along to be able to reference the information for themselves... Many, as you know, will dismiss it for/as "Spin" if they don't see the information/facts for themselves... Many others, of course, will do anything to avoid seeing the Facts because it will get in their way of "Feeling" they way they do, they can't be bothered taking the time to "reach an INFORMED opinion."



And you certainly aren't going to see any of this information on the Communist News Network (CNN), PMSnbc, National Barrack Channel (NBC), etc...



I feel like "dude".......... What a wonderful post...!!!! applause
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Sep 30, 2008 8:34 PM CST Ammunition To Use Against the “New, Improved” Bailout Proposal
Indyfella
IndyfellaIndyfellaindianapolis, Indiana USA230 Threads 9 Polls 27,698 Posts
Darkhorseman: OK, I watched your You Tube video. And there is blame to be laid on passing legislation which is not supportable in the real World. But there is also blame to be laid on speculators who artificially inflate prices of ecconomic necessities and expect to be able to get away with it indefinitely. That too is living outside the real World.



No one in their right mind can think that it's normal for property values to increase 10 to 30 % a year for 8 years...and maintain itself. Think of it as a "penny stock"....the pump and dump type.
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Sep 30, 2008 8:44 PM CST Ammunition To Use Against the “New, Improved” Bailout Proposal
Darkhorseman
DarkhorsemanDarkhorsemanGladstonia ... it's a strange, Queensland Australia54 Threads 4 Polls 2,063 Posts
All the developed World countries need third parties. The two paty political system is just a step up from the communist francise of political power.

The voters need a real choice. Theyare not going to get it while you need to be a billionaire to run for President or Prime Minister.
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Sep 30, 2008 9:09 PM CST Ammunition To Use Against the “New, Improved” Bailout Proposal
Sparky55
Sparky55Sparky55Somewhere, Afghanistan68 Threads 1 Polls 4,749 Posts
Darkhorseman: All the developed World countries need third parties. The two paty political system is just a step up from the communist francise of political power.

The voters need a real choice. Theyare not going to get it while you need to be a billionaire to run for President or Prime Minister.


Exactly....
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Oct 1, 2008 1:44 PM CST Ammunition To Use Against the “New, Improved” Bailout Proposal
YetAnotherUser: lol... yes, but this "video" gives you the information from "independant" sources and helps people along to be able to reference the information for themselves... Many, as you know, will dismiss it for/as "Spin" if they don't see the information/facts for themselves... Many others, of course, will do anything to avoid seeing the Facts because it will get in their way of "Feeling" they way they do, they can't be bothered taking the time to "reach an INFORMED opinion."



And you certainly aren't going to see any of this information on the Communist News Network (CNN), PMSnbc, National Barrack Channel (NBC), etc...







http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_Reinvestment_Act

Discuss conversing Lets break this down...Indy? I'm sure the blame can very well be distributed around to both parties....
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Oct 27, 2008 1:14 AM CST Ammunition To Use Against the “New, Improved” Bailout Proposal
mdavids
mdavidsmdavidsbridgeton, Missouri USA1 Posts
Well I guess I could pontificate on this whole bailout mess however i would only add to the noise. Or maybe that is what I need to do... make some noise so people freaking wake up! The American dream is becoming a nightmare for most people.
Both the left and the right wings are part of the problem. Americans are the problem for continuing to vote them into office and by keeping their mouths shut to corruption going on around them. We had better start looking out for one another or that American independent I can do it on my own spirit will have breathed its last breath. Out of many one people. out of many people one nation under GOD not the bank of America. (I will address the affects of usury on the macro and micro levels of society later)

Maybe we should be asking ourselves why we as a people allowed ourselves to remain asleep this long and let it get to this. Corruption and chaos and destruction does not come to fruition over night. Lets face it... We as a nation have embraced the lies so long that few even know what the real reason for all of this much less the answer. With all the kings wise men (experts) foaming out their solutions the confusion only continues and the problem only grows. We have become a circus of ridiculousness. Left and right wing experts...

How long did you think we would be able to continue being a nation of consumers rather than a nation of human beings with our debt skyrocketing and corruption growing? TIME TO WEED THE GARDEN OR ELSE IT WILL CEASE TO BE A GARDEN.


PULL THE WEED UP BY THE ROOTS

Problems must be dealt with at the root level not from the top down. That only addresses symptoms. And America is addicted to dealing with symptoms. This is insane... the symptoms will kill the patient if the root cause is never dealt with. The root cause is corruption born of pride. We have created a culture of greed and corruption is eating the nation like a cancer.

Maybe this is what happens when nation such as ours refuses to learn from history and worse yet decides that is it smarter than God. Pride comes before the fall. And the corruption rots the foundation for a long time before the fall. America needs to wake up and face reality. Justice indeed will be done... one way or another... Corruption always brings it self down. We are a divided... sleeping... greedy... broken nation. It saddens me so. Do not think that the experts will get us out of this one. They helped get us into it. Where there is no greater wisdom than that of mortal man destruction is sure to follow. The people are destroyed because the leaders lack VISION. Book smarts won't do it this time folks. Better start praying.

more on this later... there I have contributed to the noise also.Tuesday, Sept 30, 2008
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