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Perpetual Circles ( Archived) (28)

Oct 19, 2008 1:37 PM CST Perpetual Circles
BarrenPneuma
BarrenPneumaBarrenPneumaGolden Staircase, Ontario Canada121 Threads 4 Polls 2,496 Posts
No one plans or seeks to enter into a cycle of negative repetition willingly or knowingly, yet far too many end up exactly in such an eternal spiral. A man or a woman finds himself or herself in a relationship that initiates on a level that is conducive to the development of both parties. Occasionally (it seems far too often really), one or the other becomes controlling in some insidious way. The essence of what was begun in purity dwindles on both counts, with one feeding off of the other. It could be physical, mental, emotional or spiritual but the cost weighs the same upon the donor. Usually this tends to become apparent to either the victim or some outside influence. There comes an enlightenment, a personal battle, and hopefully freedom.
Wounded and scarred the casualty heals well enough to seek out the gift of Love again. If they find someone that does not match this vicious domination they often despair and turn away, or they create conflicts to resemble the worst parts. In this case they are indoctrinating an innocent into the art of control. If the significant other does not participate, they pull or push away until morose hopelessness destroys whatever could have been. Freed once again, they are more careful to subconsciously seek out the early warning signs that indicate a predator (knowing or unknowing) to fulfill this need.
It seems that once someone is in one of these destructive relationships for too long that is all the solace they seek in life. Desperation to feel as they have been told they are? Inability to reach for their dreams? Self-deprecating? Are they truly happy when they have no portion of the control of their own direction?
Deep examination of these lost individuals often comes to one pertinent conclusion… they have lost the ability to Love themselves. I am confused by how much effort these lost souls expend to prove their own twisted self-imagery, when the freedom of the chain would require so much less, especially with a hand offered to hold them firm on their path.
It is a slow rotting of the self… a suicide of sorts. How can you free yourself from this cycle? How can you free another from this cycle?
One tragic event in a life does not become our template, it is a lesson we stumble upon and should not be virally transmitted without care for the wreckage it always leaves behind. Yet the circles spin deliriously about us like a vortex drawing others into them, and leaving carnage to shame the worst battlefields. The loss of one person is too great a price to pay yet countless chaste souls lie purged of all Love, wandering through life like the living dead.
How do you stop this?
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Oct 19, 2008 1:47 PM CST Perpetual Circles
mylifewithu
mylifewithumylifewithuSpringfield, Missouri USA298 Threads 31,072 Posts
I believe you spoke the answer, they have lost the ability to love theirself. That is what is a root cause of why they keep repeating the same problems, cause if they don't love theirselves, then they also don't respect theirselves and will go keep going into bad relationships.

They don't stop and open their eyes to what they are doing wrong. They only see what the other does wrong. It's funny although they don't love theirself , they are still very protective of theirself , they can do no wrong. But they are blind to what they are.

Just the way I see it, but I may not be getting what all you talking about either, in that case I'm sorry. I am only on 2nd cup of coffee and my brain may not be in gear yet. laugh wink wine
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Oct 19, 2008 1:53 PM CST Perpetual Circles
BarrenPneuma
BarrenPneumaBarrenPneumaGolden Staircase, Ontario Canada121 Threads 4 Polls 2,496 Posts
For example:

My sister was sexually abused (obviously not her choice) as a child. The scarring that occurred is permanent in ways that no one has been able to reach her and draw her forth from it. No amount of counsel or positive persons in her life has managed to free her of this horrible weight.
She has two children from two different men, neither of which reside with her at this time. Her son has taken a long dark road into drugs and alcohol, and because of self-induced medical issues her daughter lives with her father.
Her first husband was a complete narcisist and treated her with absolute dominance. Eventually violence was brough into this relationship and outsiders had to step in to stop it.
Her second husband is a man who has had allegations of s*xual abuse cast upon him in regards to his other two daughters, and continues this to this date. He controls his daughter by telling her that if she leaves him he will kill himself. The courts are involved but nothing is moving along fast enough to prevent another merciless spiritual destruction.
My sister has recently found another man, who again is starting to abuse her and she is doing everything possible to maintain this relationship.
Regardless of how long this situation endures, she will merely brush herself off and seek yet another in an endless cycle of hurts.
How do you watch this happen again and again? What can be done? How do you free a person from a prison of their own making?
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Oct 19, 2008 1:55 PM CST Perpetual Circles
mylifewithu: I believe you spoke the answer, they have lost the ability to love theirself. That is what is a root cause of why they keep repeating the same problems, cause if they don't love theirselves, then they also don't respect theirselves and will go keep going into bad relationships.

They don't stop and open their eyes to what they are doing wrong. They only see what the other does wrong. It's funny although they don't love theirself , they are still very protective of theirself , they can do no wrong. But they are blind to what they are.

Just the way I see it, but I may not be getting what all you talking about either, in that case I'm sorry. I am only on 2nd cup of coffee and my brain may not be in gear yet.


Agree,makes perfect sense.That's why a good self-esteem is high on my priorities in choosing a man.So many say they have selfrespect and sadly they have mny issues that arn't seen at the onset of a relationship.When they start removing the mask of security they wear,it starts popping up in every situation.
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Oct 19, 2008 1:55 PM CST Perpetual Circles
BarrenPneuma
BarrenPneumaBarrenPneumaGolden Staircase, Ontario Canada121 Threads 4 Polls 2,496 Posts
mylifewithu: I believe you spoke the answer, they have lost the ability to love theirself. That is what is a root cause of why they keep repeating the same problems, cause if they don't love theirselves, then they also don't respect theirselves and will go keep going into bad relationships.

They don't stop and open their eyes to what they are doing wrong. They only see what the other does wrong. It's funny although they don't love theirself , they are still very protective of theirself , they can do no wrong. But they are blind to what they are.

Just the way I see it, but I may not be getting what all you talking about either, in that case I'm sorry. I am only on 2nd cup of coffee and my brain may not be in gear yet.


What 'reward' do they receive from such a relationship? Do they truly see themselves as lower than a faceless beast? Knowing the hurts they bear why do they stay? And even moreso why would they see this as something worth sharing with others?dunno
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Oct 19, 2008 1:57 PM CST Perpetual Circles
Hugz_n_Kissez
Hugz_n_KissezHugz_n_KissezSomeplace, Ontario Canada82 Threads 3 Polls 34,865 Posts
mylifewithu: I believe you spoke the answer, they have lost the ability to love theirself. That is what is a root cause of why they keep repeating the same problems, cause if they don't love theirselves, then they also don't respect theirselves and will go keep going into bad relationships.

They don't stop and open their eyes to what they are doing wrong. They only see what the other does wrong. It's funny although they don't love theirself , they are still very protective of theirself , they can do no wrong. But they are blind to what they are.

Just the way I see it, but I may not be getting what all you talking about either, in that case I'm sorry. I am only on 2nd cup of coffee and my brain may not be in gear yet.


I agree...and would only add that the only person we can stop from doing this is ourselves...and that's by healing what needs to be healed and dealing head on with all the issues surrounding it....feelings...emotions etc....but honesty with oneself is the most important factor in all of this...and we can support someone who recognizes the cycle...but if they don't...then it becomes a choice...and that's a choice of deciding is the relationship doing us more harm than good and at that point...whether to stay or go!!!!!!!




wave wink hug teddybear hug bouquet
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Oct 19, 2008 2:00 PM CST Perpetual Circles
Ambrose2007
Ambrose2007Ambrose2007BFE, South Dakota USA110 Threads 17 Polls 14,069 Posts
Very nice chronicle of the self-abuse cycle, BP.thumbs up
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Oct 19, 2008 2:02 PM CST Perpetual Circles
BarrenPneuma: For example:

My sister was sexually abused (obviously not her choice) as a child. The scarring that occurred is permanent in ways that no one has been able to reach her and draw her forth from it. No amount of counsel or positive persons in her life has managed to free her of this horrible weight.
She has two children from two different men, neither of which reside with her at this time. Her son has taken a long dark road into drugs and alcohol, and because of self-induced medical issues her daughter lives with her father.
Her first husband was a complete narcisist and treated her with absolute dominance. Eventually violence was brough into this relationship and outsiders had to step in to stop it.
Her second husband is a man who has had allegations of s*xual abuse cast upon him in regards to his other two daughters, and continues this to this date. He controls his daughter by telling her that if she leaves him he will kill himself. The courts are involved but nothing is moving along fast enough to prevent another merciless spiritual destruction.
My sister has recently found another man, who again is starting to abuse her and she is doing everything possible to maintain this relationship.
Regardless of how long this situation endures, she will merely brush herself off and seek yet another in an endless cycle of hurts.
How do you watch this happen again and again? What can be done? How do you free a person from a prison of their own making?


Sadly the abuse is a cycle and it will go on forever passed down in a family until 1 person ays I a not going to continue this,I need help and if they seek and receive the righthelp,the cycle can be and has been broken.I have as well as others I know,broken the cycle with educating myself and gettng therapy.You cannot free a prson unless they re willing to accept that freedom.You can merly suggest ad they must take teps onthier own.It is a scarey,hard working undertaking,but necassarey for change to come about.Much more complicated than it sounds,deep and indepth.
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Oct 19, 2008 2:04 PM CST Perpetual Circles
BarrenPneuma
BarrenPneumaBarrenPneumaGolden Staircase, Ontario Canada121 Threads 4 Polls 2,496 Posts
Hugz_n_Kissez: I agree...and would only add that the only person we can stop from doing this is ourselves...and that's by healing what needs to be healed and dealing head on with all the issues surrounding it....feelings...emotions etc....but honesty with oneself is the most important factor in all of this...and we can support someone who recognizes the cycle...but if they don't...then it becomes a choice...and that's a choice of deciding is the relationship doing us more harm than good and at that point...whether to stay or go!!!!!!!


So if we walk away from someone we Love who is the loser? Us or them? How much is too much, to pass someone by and let them drown in a situation that almost certainly did not originate through their wishes and dreams? If we stay in their lives for support are we enabling them? How do you let go in any sort of good conscience?
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Oct 19, 2008 2:05 PM CST Perpetual Circles
Hugz_n_Kissez
Hugz_n_KissezHugz_n_KissezSomeplace, Ontario Canada82 Threads 3 Polls 34,865 Posts
BarrenPneuma: What 'reward' do they receive from such a relationship? Do they truly see themselves as lower than a faceless beast? Knowing the hurts they bear why do they stay? And even moreso why would they see this as something worth sharing with others?



The pay off is the continual verification through each abusive relationship...that they are not worthy or good enough to be loved....whether it be because of shame...guilt...self-hatred...whatever issues are still present from childhood abuse that are still present and un-dealt with....and heaping it on to others is just the cycle effect taking it's course because it has yet to be broken....wave wink hug teddybear hug bouquet
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Oct 19, 2008 2:08 PM CST Perpetual Circles
mylifewithu
mylifewithumylifewithuSpringfield, Missouri USA298 Threads 31,072 Posts
BarrenPneuma: What 'reward' do they receive from such a relationship? Do they truly see themselves as lower than a faceless beast? Knowing the hurts they bear why do they stay? And even moreso why would they see this as something worth sharing with others?
Well yes as nomindgames above said, It's about their self esteem, so it's rooted deep into her. I think the reward is they get what they think is all they deserve, It backs up their belief of what they see they are.
I don't know why they stay other than it's all they think they deserve. I think the reason for sharing what they are going thru is for pity, and showing they have a side of them that wants out of the cycle. But still they aren't willing to take a deep deep look at theirself's to find the answers.
Some one needs to help guide her with those basic problems she feels about her self. But I don't know anything about who can help her. Some if they love and value their children enough and want to give them the best then is all that is needed to help protect all of them. At least to avoid those problems. But many don't think on that level.dunno
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Oct 19, 2008 2:08 PM CST Perpetual Circles
Hugz_n_Kissez
Hugz_n_KissezHugz_n_KissezSomeplace, Ontario Canada82 Threads 3 Polls 34,865 Posts
BarrenPneuma: So if we walk away from someone we Love who is the loser? Us or them? How much is too much, to pass someone by and let them drown in a situation that almost certainly did not originate through their wishes and dreams? If we stay in their lives for support are we enabling them? How do you let go in any sort of good conscience?


Support them doesn't hurt...keeping boundaries in place and not supporting them in bad decisions...stops enabling....loving someone enough to stay and support them...doesn't mean you support what they do...as long as you realize that they can only change things for themselves because they recognize it for what it is....and that your role isn't to change them..but as guidance and support.....wave wink hug teddybear hug bouquet
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Oct 19, 2008 2:11 PM CST Perpetual Circles
BarrenPneuma
BarrenPneumaBarrenPneumaGolden Staircase, Ontario Canada121 Threads 4 Polls 2,496 Posts
nomindgames: Sadly the abuse is a cycle and it will go on forever passed down in a family until 1 person ays I a not going to continue this,I need help and if they seek and receive the righthelp,the cycle can be and has been broken.I have as well as others I know,broken the cycle with educating myself and gettng therapy.You cannot free a prson unless they re willing to accept that freedom.You can merly suggest ad they must take teps onthier own.It is a scarey,hard working undertaking,but necassarey for change to come about.Much more complicated than it sounds,deep and indepth.


My sister has had years (30 plus) of secular counseling, many different approaches to spiritual healing, and more meds that any person could take in a lifetime. Does it fail because she is truly lost to herself? Or is the failing on the shoulders of ineffectual hands in her life? I am not one to believe that the cause is lost until there are no hands to play, but situations like this change the rules so quickly.
In some way it reminds me of the movie the Exorcist. A girl in need but when the game nears conclusion the innocent turns on you to drive you away. Why do they fight and hurt others to protect something which is costing them their lives? Accusations, slander, doubts, hatred, there is no limit to the attacks if you get close. If they have this reserve of power at hand how can it be turned in their favour?
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Oct 19, 2008 2:18 PM CST Perpetual Circles
brokenspirit
brokenspiritbrokenspiritLittlespot, Nebraska USA53 Threads 803 Posts
BarrenPneuma: So if we walk away from someone we Love who is the loser? Us or them? How much is too much, to pass someone by and let them drown in a situation that almost certainly did not originate through their wishes and dreams? If we stay in their lives for support are we enabling them? How do you let go in any sort of good conscience?





I did just that 10 weeks ago. Was it easy? Hell no. I loved this man and we were together over 2 years. I kept trying to convince myself it was my fault and that I just needed to try harder. All it was doing was taking me deeper and deeper into that abyss of no return. When I finally did move out within 3 hours he called my girlfriend and started talking nasty sex to her, she hung up, the next day he did the same thing with my sister, she of coure gave him a piece of her mind before hanging up. No family member or friend some even from here could convince me not to be with his man. We have to finally come to a point that we own the problem and then take the step to remove ourself from it. I am so sorry for your sister, but it sounds like she is refusing all help. Just be there the day she finally realizes this is wrong and I want out. But never say I told you and you just would not listen. Those words hurt deeply for someone who is trying to get free of that hurtful chain around their neck.teddybear
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Oct 19, 2008 2:19 PM CST Perpetual Circles
BarrenPneuma
BarrenPneumaBarrenPneumaGolden Staircase, Ontario Canada121 Threads 4 Polls 2,496 Posts
Now what if this person is the one you Love?
It is a little easier to let someone go, or create boundaries for self-preservation (drowning victims are the largest hazard in a rescue for the rescuers no matter the state of the environment), especially if they have another system of support to take some of the burden of the efforts required to stand by them.
A person who stands alone in most every way, yet requires some form of help, a hand, a shoulder, an ear, a gentle voice... but the costs are quite extreme at times.
Especially in the times when they have a false sense of worth derived from some situation that at its inception seems to deliver them to freedom. Even though it is assuredly just one more spiral that causes vertigo and a detrimental fall.
How do you help someone you are in Love with, for who they are in between these perpetual moments of self abuse? The reward is apparent at these times and is a strength of sorts for continuing but the weight is very oppressive during the bad times. Especially when the Love becomes an attacker.
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Oct 19, 2008 2:19 PM CST Perpetual Circles
mylifewithu: Well yes as nomindgames above said, It's about their self esteem, so it's rooted deep into her. I think the reward is they get what they think is all they deserve, It backs up their belief of what they see they are.
I don't know why they stay other than it's all they think they deserve. I think the reason for sharing what they are going thru is for pity, and showing they have a side of them that wants out of the cycle. But still they aren't willing to take a deep deep look at theirself's to find the answers.
Some one needs to help guide her with those basic problems she feels about her self. But I don't know anything about who can help her. Some if they love and value their children enough and want to give them the best then is all that is needed to help protect all of them. At least to avoid those problems. But many don't think on that level.

May I say,sorry I am saying,I after every type of abuse growing up felt I was a no one,I could do no good nor could I ever accomplish anything in life since that was drilled in my had since childhood and we hear it again over and over as life goes on in our heads.I personally had no slf respect or confidence at all,however I put on a good act of it.I could never be happy so I couldn't make others truly happy.I as fortunate at a young age,20's,to meet awoman who wrote a book on the cycle of abuse and lad a group known as Parents Anynomous.That was the start for me as I had a yong child and did not want to abuse him or neglect him in any way.I then started to read books of self help and psyc. books,and then went into a grueling 4 years of therapy.All well worth it,but I had to see mymistakes,I had to admi I had issues just as an alchoholic or drug addicted person must do.
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Oct 19, 2008 2:19 PM CST Perpetual Circles
riyablossom
riyablossomriyablossomsomewhere, Pennsylvania USA201 Threads 21 Polls 13,583 Posts
Everything boils down to one simple thing .. the need to feel and actually be loved.

Sometimes certain incidents in life scar people so badly that no amount of truth or help can actually pull them out of the miserable viscious circle. Its easy to blame the one going thro' it as being inconsiderate , defiant or irresponsible inspite of being an adult . That what most people do ( this is in general and not wrt your sister Mark hug ). I think there lies a bruised child deep inside each of those adults who have lost themselves somewhere along the way.

Just cos they are adults, their ego works in a different way to satisfy the needs or feelings cos they have to behave in a certain way but which eventually comes across not very satisfactory.

I do think love is the cure to many problems but not many have the patience for unconditional giving . its immense sacrifice and hardwork. Not many would be willing to go thro' a test yet again in life.

In her case , I wish she would have found someone who would love her so much that she healed of her past. Her future would begin to fall in place once she comes out of the dark. Neednt be a spouse or a man in her life. It could be family , friends , anyone. But then again, she should be willing to receive it.

I am sorry , Barren hug comfort
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Oct 19, 2008 2:23 PM CST Perpetual Circles
mylifewithu
mylifewithumylifewithuSpringfield, Missouri USA298 Threads 31,072 Posts
Learning how to set limits is at least a beginning, it's hard to do and to stick to, but if they truely are ready to be out it's the best she could do for herself. Setting limits first what she wants and what she will put up with and what is totally over the lines.
This is what I found about it:

Setting limits in personal relationships can be hard work. Especially if you have acted in ways prior that did not respect your own limits, enforcing new limits may be particularly challenging. If you are acting differently than you would normally do, this can be stressful, guilt-producing or lonely. However, continuing not to respect your own needs is also uncomfortable and stressful. Thus setting limits can result ultimately in better personal relationships.

First and foremost, you must decide what your limits really are, and question how reasonable these limits are. You have to delve into your own core truths and decide which limits are the most important, and which ones are tired out and really don’t belong to you.

This can take some serious personal scrutiny on your part, but it is better to really investigate what limits are most important. Once you decide what limits are important, then you can hand a set of rules to someone else with whom you have a relationship. Knowing where you stand allows you to clearly state limits, without anger or aggression.

wine
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Oct 19, 2008 2:26 PM CST Perpetual Circles
Hugz_n_Kissez
Hugz_n_KissezHugz_n_KissezSomeplace, Ontario Canada82 Threads 3 Polls 34,865 Posts
BarrenPneuma: Now what if this person is the one you Love?
It is a little easier to let someone go, or create boundaries for self-preservation (drowning victims are the largest hazard in a rescue for the rescuers no matter the state of the environment), especially if they have another system of support to take some of the burden of the efforts required to stand by them.
A person who stands alone in most every way, yet requires some form of help, a hand, a shoulder, an ear, a gentle voice... but the costs are quite extreme at times.
Especially in the times when they have a false sense of worth derived from some situation that at its inception seems to deliver them to freedom. Even though it is assuredly just one more spiral that causes vertigo and a detrimental fall.
How do you help someone you are in Love with, for who they are in between these perpetual moments of self abuse? The reward is apparent at these times and is a strength of sorts for continuing but the weight is very oppressive during the bad times. Especially when the Love becomes an attacker.



That's when they choice is the hardest because...you can stay and love and support and hope they see enough worth in themselves to finally see they are worth all the love that you are giving them...and that is sets off a path of wanting to feel healthy and whole as a person so they can be loved and loving in return so they desire to take on the healing process for themselves...with a lot of time and patience....or you my have to decide to leave because it becomes to destructive to your own healthiness and well being....I guess the choice has to be yours to make....wave wink hug teddybear hug bouquet
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Oct 19, 2008 2:32 PM CST Perpetual Circles
BarrenPneuma
BarrenPneumaBarrenPneumaGolden Staircase, Ontario Canada121 Threads 4 Polls 2,496 Posts
riyablossom: Everything boils down to one simple thing .. the need to feel and actually be loved.

Sometimes certain incidents in life scar people so badly that no amount of truth or help can actually pull them out of the miserable viscious circle. Its easy to blame the one going thro' it as being inconsiderate , defiant or irresponsible inspite of being an adult . That what most people do ( this is in general and not wrt your sister Mark ). I think there lies a bruised child deep inside each of those adults who have lost themselves somewhere along the way.

Just cos they are adults, their ego works in a different way to satisfy the needs or feelings cos they have to behave in a certain way but which eventually comes across not very satisfactory.

I do think love is the cure to many problems but not many have the patience for unconditional giving . its immense sacrifice and hardwork. Not many would be willing to go thro' a test yet again in life.

In her case , I wish she would have found someone who would love her so much that she healed of her past. Her future would begin to fall in place once she comes out of the dark. Neednt be a spouse or a man in her life. It could be family , friends , anyone. But then again, she should be willing to receive it.

I am sorry , Barren


My sister is just one example, and I am sure I could name many from my own life, yet the point of this discussion has a much deeper point of bearing for me. I will not name names as this is entirely a private issue that I am not willing to air for any reason.
Is unconditional Love the only way truly to reach them?
Sacrifice and work are nothing that I would shy from in any way, no matter the personal cost. I have survived and surmounted extremely severe obstacles in my life and in this lies an infinite strength that I have managed to tap into against all odds when my heart is clear.
What tools are best to reach out, and is there such a thing a too much? I really need some help here my heart is very wounded by this situation and I just need some sort of reflection to draw upon in the darkest hours. I will stand alone against this but with such wonderful people here i have seen much healing in another sort of perpetual chain. The chain of Love, of which I am a huge proponent.
I would lose it all and die with a smile just to see that particular millstone cast back to the hell that spawned it.
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