The Limits of Free Will: Can one will oneself in and out of love? ( Archived) (125)

Oct 30, 2008 3:41 PM CST The Limits of Free Will: Can one will oneself in and out of love?
This thread is interesting.

It also brings to mind of the people, whom have had arranged marriages. Some turn out to be very sucessful and, yet the partners did not have a choice in them. Some never met until the Wedding Ceremony.

I am convinced that if two people have the mutual desire to make a relationship work, it will. I also believe where that commitment is, then two strangers whom would not have chosen one another can learn to love each other.

This type of Marriage is not for me. I had the opportunity when my Mother was alive, to have am Arranged Marriage and I refused. I wish to make my own choices Good or Bad.

However, The ones that accept it or whom have no choice in the arrangement, yet manage to make it work, have my deepest respect.


wine hug
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Oct 30, 2008 4:00 PM CST The Limits of Free Will: Can one will oneself in and out of love?
lktolbert
lktolbertlktolbertAtlanta, Georgia USA1 Threads 128 Posts
Ambrose2007: Well, first, Linda, I appreciate your taking time from your costume construction to give us your thoughts.

I guess I'm not exactly sure what it is you're asserting is a fact. I'm assuming it's that we do have the power to will ourselves in and out of love, among other things. If so, I'm not sure I see how that could be objectively demonstrated (that is, elevated to the status of fact) given the subjective states involved, the inherent difficulty of measuring behaviors/states, and the lack of anything resembling complete knowledge of human nature. Granted, some things about human behavior have achieved factual status, but I can't see this as one of them. You'd have to point me to some evidence for that, provide some supportive argumentation, or perhaps clarify your claim a bit.

I would say that almost certainly some things are quite impossible for us to want. For example, I doubt there is any power on Earth or beyond that could make you want to harm your son - not without physically altering your identity... but in that case it wouldn't be *you* wanting that. I'm claiming that you, as you are presently constituted and in the present circumstances, could not will yourself to want that.

If that is true, then it seems you would be obligated to soften your claim a bit. Even my friend, by the way, qualifies his position considerably, rendering it far weaker than yours. Some aspects of will, I'm arguing, do not reduce to questions of effort. No matter how much effort you devote there are some things you cannot make yourself want to do (I'm not including intensive brainwashing or chemical alterations of one's personality). That seems awfully commensensical to me.

I have the sense you're speaking from a very strong belief system on this, Linda, and I'm curious what it might be (I've read a lot of psychology and self-help literature over the years, and haven't encountered quite as emphatic as your position before).




Now, you know Jeff that I could never allow forum posting to interfere with something as important as costume construction. I am actually waiting for the dealership to change the oil in my car, and the only available reading material is Golf Digest.

By the way, who is Linda? I believe my name to be Saphira, and therefore it IS Saphira.
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Oct 30, 2008 4:43 PM CST The Limits of Free Will: Can one will oneself in and out of love?
BnaturAl
BnaturAlBnaturAlSarnia, Ontario Canada107 Threads 7 Polls 6,811 Posts
Ambrose2007: I agree with the essence of what you're saying, B, and I would've replied similarly to Linda on this point.

It strikes me as highly improbable that love is quite so idiosyncratic as she claims - that there isn't a universal element involved just as there is in all human actions and attitudes.


There's a strong case for what she says I think Jeff. I don't disagree with the intent of her arguement. It is fundamentally workable the way she presents it, provided love is a muteable array of desires and thoughts, and that is the only part I take issue with.

Having said that; I just think by and large one must keep to the purest most truthful definition of love, in answering this OP. Removing or expanding the limits and accepting all personal and or homogenized interpretations of love makes it too muddy to come up with anything but 'qualified' answer.

Sounds rather legal and sterile doesn't it? hmmm




cheers
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Oct 30, 2008 4:47 PM CST The Limits of Free Will: Can one will oneself in and out of love?
Ambrose2007
Ambrose2007Ambrose2007BFE, South Dakota USA67 Threads 10 Polls 8,881 Posts
gingerb: I agree with the point you are making here too, but you left the "C" word out........CHOICE!!!

Anyone can choose to do, or be, or believe, anything they want.

Changing your mind on anything is easy, nothing complicated about it. You just CHOOSE to...........


Hey, Ginger! Long time no talk, gf!hug wave

Now to what I see as a major reason for believing that the highlighted part of your quote is false: if it were possible to choose to be or believe anything one chose to be, then it would be possible to choose to have a different individual identity altogether. I'd ask you to consider the logical implications of that - one of which is no one would actually have any fixed identity, but could in fact morph into infinitely many people. Now I ask you, is that a phenomenon you've ever observed occur anywhere at any time? Further, it would be logically absurd in this sense: the person actually making the choice must have certain fixed characteristics - the "bedrock personality" that I referred to earlier in this thread - in order for his or her choice to have any meaning... I mean that without a "bedrock personality" any choices one would make would have no more significance than random-number generated actions.hug
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Oct 30, 2008 4:56 PM CST The Limits of Free Will: Can one will oneself in and out of love?
Ambrose2007
Ambrose2007Ambrose2007BFE, South Dakota USA67 Threads 10 Polls 8,881 Posts
lktolbert: Apparently I'm not clearly making my point. What constitutes "love" is another subject altogether. I am responding only to the question posted.

The ENTIRE debate about "love" being TRUE or REAL or ABSOLUTE or UNDENIABLE or WARM or FUZZY or RED or GREEN or BLUE, etc., is irrelevant to the point. WHATEVER is in one's head is REAL/TRUE to that individual, and that individual has the ability to alter it. He or she may not possess the knowledge or the desire to do it, but it is possible based on what we know about the human brain.

It is NOT like telling the self that the self can hit a baseball a hundred miles. Hitting a baseball is an act performed OUTSIDE one's head and involves physical conditions/attributes. The TRUTH inside one's head is abstract and extremely subjective. That the world was once flat was believed by many to be TRUE. Of course we now know it was not true. BUT, AT THAT TIME IN HISTORY, INSIDE THE HEAD WHO BELIEVED IT, WHATEVER MIND ALTERATIONS WERE POSSIBLE FOR THAT INDIVIDUAL WERE BASED ON THAT INDIVIDUAL'S REALITY/TRUTH/BELIEF, REGARDLESS OF WHETHER OR NOT THEIR "TRUTH' HAD ANY BASIS IN FACT.

IF I BELIEVE IT IS LOVE, MY REALITY/TRUTH IS THAT IT IS LOVE. If any mind altering regarding the subject of love is going to transpire in MY head, it is going to be based on what I believe to be LOVE. The actual objective truth or what other's believe is true is irrelevant to the task at hand, i.e., altering MY mind's belief/truth/reality.

WHAT I BELIEVE IS MY REALITY. WHETHER OR NOT IT IS TRUE TO ANYONE EXISTING OUTSIDE MY HEAD IS IRRELEVANT.


I agree that external reality, whatever that might be, is irrelevant to the issue of whether or not one can alter, through will, one's own thoughts. I think you made that admirably clear above, Linda.

Your concluding statement, however, is a different contention, and smacks of solipsism, I think. I don't see any good reason to suspect that whatever exists outside one's head is irrelevant to the contents of one's own mind. I mean, a schizophrenic might believe there are aardvarks tormenting him in his bedroom, but surely the truth of the matter is relevant - or ought to be - to how he conducts his life?

In other words, if a person holds a false view - whether it be about love or whathaveyou - it seems unlikely that the falseness of that view will be irrelevant to his life...that is, that the falseness of his or her views won't impact his life, much in the way a false view of an oncoming truck might impact it.laugh wave

Happy almost Halloween, by the way!hug
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Oct 30, 2008 4:58 PM CST The Limits of Free Will: Can one will oneself in and out of love?
Ambrose2007
Ambrose2007Ambrose2007BFE, South Dakota USA67 Threads 10 Polls 8,881 Posts
lusciousmile: Ambrose, i'm not in the best state to be answering this thread right now, but will, soon after a malibu and lime.


Hmmm...sounds good. Hope that works for you.

I'm seeking mental clarity via cranberry juice and Vodka...wave hug wine
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Oct 30, 2008 5:14 PM CST The Limits of Free Will: Can one will oneself in and out of love?
BnaturAl
BnaturAlBnaturAlSarnia, Ontario Canada107 Threads 7 Polls 6,811 Posts
lktolbert: It is NOT like telling the self that the self can hit a baseball a hundred miles. Hitting a baseball is an act performed OUTSIDE one's head and involves physical conditions/attributes. The TRUTH inside one's head is abstract and extremely subjective. That the world was once flat was believed by many to be TRUE. Of course we now know it was not true. BUT, AT THAT TIME IN HISTORY, INSIDE THE HEAD WHO BELIEVED IT, WHATEVER MIND ALTERATIONS WERE POSSIBLE FOR THAT INDIVIDUAL WERE BASED ON THAT INDIVIDUAL'S REALITY/TRUTH/BELIEF, REGARDLESS OF WHETHER OR NOT THEIR "TRUTH' HAD ANY BASIS IN FACT.
WHAT I BELIEVE IS MY REALITY. WHETHER OR NOT IT IS TRUE TO ANYONE EXISTING OUTSIDE MY HEAD IS IRRELEVANT.


During flat earth times, 'everyone' (as a general term) operated within the same parametres of that flat earth belief. dunno

The thrust of my arguement is just that. We know (generally as humans) there is a more universally accepted defintion of love that for most of us, when we are truthful with ourselves, we understand that definiton to be true, no matter how much we decide or choose to personally colour it.


Everything outside is relevant. What use is love if there nothing to find it in?
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Oct 30, 2008 5:41 PM CST The Limits of Free Will: Can one will oneself in and out of love?
StressFree
StressFreeStressFreesmall city, Kalmar Sweden176 Threads 16 Polls 8,986 Posts
Ambrose2007: Thanks, brother! Jeez...now I know what B meant by your "right" brain!

I agree that there are lots of variables, which make the whole subjective experience of will so mind-blowingly labyrinthine. But I think you've underscored my point with your "natural instincts" and someone being overweight. There is a bottom line, I think, it what we can will vis-a-vis our foundational esthetics. Sometimes it's hard to know exactly where those limits lie, granted, but I believe they are there.

That bit about your wrinkled girlfriend...eerrcchh. I know what you mean. It's one of those things you do have some say about in terms of blocking out a negative and focusing on a positive. But as I've argued here, there are limits, my friend, no?



Is it real...

















or is it Memorex? hmmm laugh


Ambrose, I did not mean to underscore your point. Sorry.

I just saw something else. Even if I did your friends experiment over and over, it would not work on me. I can't even be hypnotized or go deep in some indigenous Sámi drum trip.

Yes, some have limits and and some don't. The data on that is there.

What are your thoughts on natural instincts?

Bnat keeps me on my toes. He is like the Scully to my Mulder.
laugh
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Oct 30, 2008 5:47 PM CST The Limits of Free Will: Can one will oneself in and out of love?
cristina
cristinacristinaLisbon, North Holland Netherlands286 Threads 10 Polls 17,243 Posts
Yes, i'm with your friend in that...it's all in the head. If you believe the person can make you happy, you may love the person. It's from the head to the heart and not the other way around. But you need a good self control and intelligence to make it work that way.

A different issue is passion, this you can't control...i think!
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Oct 30, 2008 5:48 PM CST The Limits of Free Will: Can one will oneself in and out of love?
BnaturAl
BnaturAlBnaturAlSarnia, Ontario Canada107 Threads 7 Polls 6,811 Posts
StressFree: Is it real...or is it Memorex? Ambrose, I did not mean to underscore your point. Sorry.

I just saw something else. Even if I did your friends experiment over and over, it would not work on me. I can't even be hypnotized or go deep in some indigenous Sámi drum trip.

Yes, some have limits and and some don't. The data on that is there.

What are your thoughts on natural instincts?

Bnat keeps me on my toes. He is like the Scully to my Mulder.




laugh somehow, the vision of you on your toes is pleasant one rolling on the floor laughing



cheers
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Oct 30, 2008 5:50 PM CST The Limits of Free Will: Can one will oneself in and out of love?
cristina
cristinacristinaLisbon, North Holland Netherlands286 Threads 10 Polls 17,243 Posts
lusciousmile: Ambrose, i'm not in the best state to be answering this thread right now, but will, soon after a malibu and lime.


giggle rolling on the floor laughing rolling on the floor laughing rolling on the floor laughing
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Oct 30, 2008 6:03 PM CST The Limits of Free Will: Can one will oneself in and out of love?
Ambrose2007
Ambrose2007Ambrose2007BFE, South Dakota USA67 Threads 10 Polls 8,881 Posts
I wonder what Lush will have to say after the drink, Cristina??confused wow bouquet
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Oct 30, 2008 6:05 PM CST The Limits of Free Will: Can one will oneself in and out of love?
StressFree
StressFreeStressFreesmall city, Kalmar Sweden176 Threads 16 Polls 8,986 Posts
Ambrose2007: There is a bottom line, I think, it what we can will vis-a-vis our foundational esthetics. Sometimes it's hard to know exactly where those limits lie, granted, but I believe they are there.


Sorry Ambrose, forgot to mention that it is very difficult and kinda mysterious to know exactly where those limits lie...I agree that limits for what you can tolerate are indeed there, but they vary from individual to individual. And that's a whole other subject in itself as to what constitutes those variances. I strongly feel that the science on this today is a little sketch. Take a look at Ken's first post in this thread. The science is not up to speed enough to give a unified answer as self evident truth.
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Oct 30, 2008 7:25 PM CST The Limits of Free Will: Can one will oneself in and out of love?
gingerb
gingerbgingerbLetterkenny, Donegal Ireland7 Threads 1 Polls 4,139 Posts
Ambrose2007: Hey, Ginger! Long time no talk, gf!

Now to what I see as a major reason for believing that the highlighted part of your quote is false: if it were possible to choose to be or believe anything one chose to be, then it would be possible to choose to have a different individual identity altogether. It is.

I'd ask you to consider the logical implications of that - one of which is no one would actually have any fixed identity, but could in fact morph into infinitely many people. I see this as being possible.

Now I ask you, is that a phenomenon you've ever observed occur anywhere at any time? Yes.

Further, it would be logically absurd in this sense: the person actually making the choice must have certain fixed characteristics - Characteristics are rarely fixed......the "bedrock personality" that I referred to earlier in this thread - in order for his or her choice to have any meaning... Choices can have meaning even for the mentally inept.

I mean that without a "bedrock personality" any choices one would make would have no more significance than random-number generated actions. Yes agreed, IF this were true, then I'd have to agree with you.


Ever heard the saying that we can be all things to all people?

We change by the second, adding and taking away from our basic being. We change cellularly, physically, emotionally, mentally, spiritually, on every level right down to sub-atomic and beyond, all the time.....to the extent that we are a totally different being every seven years or so. We look and act similarly day by day, but we are not the same.........

Every new level of thought or experience changes us irrevocably, adding and detracting from our basic core or essence. Many, even most, of these changes are based on our choices on every level.hug
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Oct 30, 2008 7:28 PM CST The Limits of Free Will: Can one will oneself in and out of love?
cristina
cristinacristinaLisbon, North Holland Netherlands286 Threads 10 Polls 17,243 Posts
StressFree: Sorry Ambrose, forgot to mention that it is very difficult and kinda mysterious to know exactly where those limits lie...I agree that limits for what you can tolerate are indeed there, but they vary from individual to individual. And that's a whole other subject in itself as to what constitutes those variances. I strongly feel that the science on this today is a little sketch. Take a look at Ken's first post in this thread. The science is not up to speed enough to give a unified answer as self evident truth.


Exactly, it a oneself capacity of controling it.
If you can't draw the limits, then you can't control it.dunno
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Oct 30, 2008 7:29 PM CST The Limits of Free Will: Can one will oneself in and out of love?
cristina
cristinacristinaLisbon, North Holland Netherlands286 Threads 10 Polls 17,243 Posts
Ambrose2007: I wonder what Lush will have to say after the drink, Cristina??


She can't think after Malibu as a matter of factsigh
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Oct 30, 2008 7:45 PM CST The Limits of Free Will: Can one will oneself in and out of love?
kkitty4u
kkitty4ukkitty4uSt Paul, Minnesota USA24 Threads 3 Polls 1,138 Posts
Ambrose2007: I'm currently debating this subject with a friend. He believes that through a combination of therapy, hypnosis, self-suggestion, and sheer willpower one make oneself fall out of love (he's claims to have done this with a long-time girlfriend). He also contends that one can will oneself to fall in love with someone. We might not *want* to fall in love with someone because of personal incompatibilities, but if one wanted to do so it would be possible - even if the person were poorly compatible.

He also applies this across the board to our desires: we could, for example, will ourselves to have different tastes in women (for example, change from liking skinny women to overweight women) if we so chose.

I believe there are quite a number of problematic elements in his position, but I'm wondering what thoughts my fellow CSers might have on this subject...



yes it is true and it is happening right as we speak. here's an example you could be in love with the person you are with and then one day they say I don't love u anymore so the choice u have is to make yourself not love them any more, or drive yourself crazy right.

I know for a fact that there are a lot of people who fall in love with people they are not compatible with. JMO these people are willing to take the risk and and sometimes it was the best thing that ever happened in their life. As for picking and choosing what u like well that is just physical and not all people in the world want to be with Ken or Barbie grin
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Oct 30, 2008 7:45 PM CST The Limits of Free Will: Can one will oneself in and out of love?
StressFree
StressFreeStressFreesmall city, Kalmar Sweden176 Threads 16 Polls 8,986 Posts
cristina: Exactly, it a oneself capacity of controling it.
If you can't draw the limits, then you can't control it.


I was not talking about controlling it, I was referring to something innate as opposed to controlling or manipulating your mind. A good majority of the people have a limit which vary from individual to individual, but limits can change over time depending on variables like experience, perspective and hormones.

Cristina, I see lots of truth in your statement "If you can't draw the limits, then you can't control it." So that could mean that anything goes for determining beauty?
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Oct 30, 2008 8:44 PM CST The Limits of Free Will: Can one will oneself in and out of love?
druidess6308
druidess6308druidess6308Aliquippa, Pennsylvania USA79 Threads 13,695 Posts
I wanted to add one more thought to this interesting thread...another example I was reminded of tonight while talking to one of my best friends...about another of my best friends.

You see, I have a best friend that I would be half of a couple with if one could will oneself in love. He and I have a ton in common, there is a bit of an attraction there that we ignore, though when I need a hug his feel the best...and we could live together in harmony. But, our hearts just aren't there. We love each other, but not in the way that makes us into a couple...and it would be a disaster to our friendship to try to force that relationship. No, we can't will ourselves into it. I'll always love him deeply as a friend, and enjoy the time we spend hanging out together, though.

And then there's a man I have virtually nothing in common with...except the deep love we have for each other. It makes no sense, and yet it's there. I react to him in a way I've never reacted to another...ever. I can't help it. And seeing him twists me into knots for days...as it does for him. We might never be a couple, but we will always love each other because we just can't stop how we feel.

Go figure. There's just no logic to the emotional side of the brain.

heart wings teddybear
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Oct 30, 2008 8:48 PM CST The Limits of Free Will: Can one will oneself in and out of love?
rwantin
rwantinrwantinRoyal Oak, Michigan USA17 Threads 8,924 Posts
One could sell one's self, or develop an emotional facade, at will I suppose. What I am not entirely sure of is whether that actually changes the content of one's heart.
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