Feral children, also known as wild children or wolf children, are children who've grown up with minimal human contact, or even none at all. They may have been raised by animals (often wolves) or somehow survived on their own. In some cases, children are confined and denied normal social interaction with other people. They act and react as a dog or wolf would and are extremely difficult to reach on a "human" communication level.
Several documented cases are available and researchable.
It appears that most things that we are, come from environmental imprinting. Without parents teaching the cognition we would be little more than animals.
This ties in with a thread not long ago dealing with monogamy and the discussion that it was inherent in humans to be monagamous. Personally I think it's behavioral; and these studies seem to bare that out.
My question is: Given that we have the tendancy to think we are cognitive sentient beings by birth, do the facts of "feral children" disprove what we think is inherent cognitive morals? It appears we are more prone to behavioral indicators than supposed inherent morals?
This raises some interesting points, Al. I would venture that their behavior is imprinted by the "parents" they are raised by, so it mimicks the pack or group behavior. The difficulty reaching them on a human communication level would have to be breached to determine a lot, though.
But yes, I agree that a lot of our behavior is taught now, and we learn much from our parents and the society we're raised in, and yet others break that conditioning...showing an ability to think for ourselves and make our own decisions.
My main question would be, what made the first humans evolve above "animal" behavior...and what would happen if the feral children were to form a "pack" or group of their own and develop over generations.
Very interesting post, Al. I'll check on it later.
druidess6308: This raises some interesting points, Al. I would venture that their behavior is imprinted by the "parents" they are raised by, so it mimicks the pack or group behavior. The difficulty reaching them on a human communication level would have to be breached to determine a lot, though.
Thats exactly where I was going with this. These children are significantly more like "wolves" than humans, even after prolonged intervention. Progress is made, but very slow, further supporting that most of what we do as humans is behavioral imprinting rather than inherent moral codes.
In response to:
But yes, I agree that a lot of our behavior is taught now, and we learn much from our parents and the society we're raised in, and yet others break that conditioning...showing an ability to think for ourselves and make our own decisions.
My main question would be, what made the first humans evolve above "animal" behavior...and what would happen if the feral children were to form a "pack" or group of their own and develop over generations.
Very interesting post, Al. I'll check on it later.
Thats one of my questions as well. I was thinking that somehow having human brains that we got this ability on our own, but now I am not so sure. Considering aberations that occur it is possible that much of cognitive human (what we call human) behavior can be evolutionary, but the possibilty for a human to slip back to stone age behavior without behavioral indicators seems highly probable.
Strange. We keep each other on the same path so to speak as it relates to human behavior and growth in sentience and cognition.
BnaturAl: Thats exactly where I was going with this. These children are significantly more like "wolves" than humans, even after prolonged intervention. Progress is made, but very slow, further supporting that most of what we do as humans is behavioral imprinting rather than inherent moral codes. Thats one of my questions as well. I was thinking that somehow having human brains that we got this ability on our own, but now I am not so sure. Considering aberations that occur it is possible that much of cognitive human (what we call human) behavior can be evolutionary, but the possibilty for a human to slip back to stone age behavior without behavioral indicators seems highly probable.
Strange. We keep each other on the same path so to speak as it relates to human behavior and growth in sentience and cognition.
Entirely possible...and yet we do it in various parts of the world simultaneously. And that was before the communication that we have now, or widespread trade even. So...for me, the question on that becomes, is it programmed into us, or is it a "Universal Soul consciousness" that determines this behavior?
Yes, there are aberrations, but they are rare by their very definition as aberrations. And then there are the societies that exist in pockets that have not evolved with the rest of the world due to their isolation...so, how did the rest of the world evolve to this point, yet they did not?
druidess6308: Entirely possible...and yet we do it in various parts of the world simultaneously. And that was before the communication that we have now, or widespread trade even. So...for me, the question on that becomes, is it programmed into us, or is it a "Universal Soul consciousness" that determines this behavior?
the hundred monkey theory
Wondering though Dru, if it were 'programmed' why woudl these kids not also have the programming? They act and react like wolves. There is apparently a small window as well to 'satabalize' a child like this as well. The younger they are the better, but if they were in that envorirnment through age 8, the ability to 'satabalize' human behavior is much more difiicult. There is even a point of no return, where the 'wolve behavior is unchangeable to any real degre. This to me would imply that is isnt progaramming
In response to:
Yes, there are aberrations, but they are rare by their very definition as aberrations. And then there are the societies that exist in pockets that have not evolved with the rest of the world due to their isolation...so, how did the rest of the world evolve to this point, yet they did not?
Its puzzling, does lead one to think that universal consciousness is somewhat environmentally dependant and not really so universal?
Wondering though Dru, if it were 'programmed' why woudl these kids not also have the programming? They act and react like wolves. There is apparently a small window as well to 'satabalize' a child like this as well. The younger they are the better, but if they were in that envorirnment through age 8, the ability to 'satabalize' human behavior is much more difiicult. There is even a point of no return, where the 'wolve behavior is unchangeable to any real degre. This to me would imply that is isnt progaramming Its puzzling, does lead one to think that universal consciousness is somewhat environmentally dependant and not really so universal?
First...did you mean "stabilize"?
Assuming that you did...interesting about the age. Anyway...very interesting, Al...and worthy of more study. However, I would think that's because of the imprinting of animal behavior on them instead, and having been raised in the society of wolves rather than humans. Meaning that their " human programming" is overwritten by wolf programming. Doesn't mean they didn't originally have the human program...just means that their brains were re-wired, so to speak, with the behavior they learned from their surroundings.
Look at people raised in abusive households. They were not necessarily born "abusive", but they learn it from their environment. Some can break that...I have...others can't, and repeat it. (First example that came to mind.)
Wondering though Dru, if it were 'programmed' why woudl these kids not also have the programming? They act and react like wolves. There is apparently a small window as well to 'satabalize' a child like this as well. The younger they are the better, but if they were in that envorirnment through age 8, the ability to 'satabalize' human behavior is much more difiicult. There is even a point of no return, where the 'wolve behavior is unchangeable to any real degre. This to me would imply that is isnt progaramming Its puzzling, does lead one to think that universal consciousness is somewhat environmentally dependant and not really so universal?
Maybe these children have "reprogrammed" to being animalistic, seeing that they haven't had human contact, and lost touch with that collective conscious. They're pretty rare and isolated cases, but do offer some interesting questions.
I still believe that we have the innate ability to differentiate right from wrong, and have at least some morality instilled in us from birth, although we do learn from our surroundings, parents, peers....good and bad. That conditioning is a large part of growing up, and where we learn social construct, behavior, as well as how to survive in society. As you mentioned, the longer they're out in the wild, the harder it is to change. Same goes for a lot of behaviour, unless something drastic happens to alter that behaviour, perhaps even traumatic.
Hugz_n_Kissez: If our behaviour was based on a universal conscienceness...would there be any need for the parent to play such a vital role in the life of a child or would a child learn totally by instinct ???? Would things like detachment disorders from not having our human needs met...even exist?????
I tend to agree Hugz ... this study on feral children, has implications in social behavior, in consciousness, universal or otherwise, in our belief systems, in our morals and more importantly who we think we are.
Is there universal consciousness because we "think' there is?
Is there a cheese sandwhich in your purse because I 'think' there is?
I totally agree with your last paragraph. We're as much humans because of our environmental indicators as dogs are by theirs.
I have watched kanine behavior shows and the same consequences happen to dogs that are removed from their mothers or the pack too soon. They appear to be easier to "stabalize" in normal dog behavior than humans are, by introducing them to a pack of dogs. Humans seem to be more difficult when it comes to righting the ship so to speak, in that regard. Who is more advanced?
In response to: Assuming that you did...interesting about the age. Anyway...very interesting, Al...and worthy of more study. However, I would think that's because of the imprinting of animal behavior on them instead, and having been raised in the society of wolves rather than humans. Meaning that their " human programming" is overwritten by wolf programming. Doesn't mean they didn't originally have the human program...just means that their brains were re-wired, so to speak, with the behavior they learned from their surroundings.
Look at people raised in abusive households. They were not necessarily born "abusive", but they learn it from their environment. Some can break that...I have...others can't, and repeat it. (First example that came to mind.)
Anyway...very interesting topic.
Its possible; but, assuming there is human programming there, why would it be so difficult to "stabilize' the human behavior? Wouldn't the human behavior be innate and return much easier? It apparently is not according to what I have read and at a certain point no chance at all is possible. That may be due to lack of committment on social intevetion though. Doctors, social workers giving up?
As for dysfunctional families, that is a good example. That too is rare, stabilizing I mean. The incidence of recovery is somewhere around 16% (may not be exact). I have done some work in psychology and dysfunctional behavior. Of course that figure is directly related to a person's desire to change and their consistent application of techniques to do so. The dysfunctional behavior doesn't totally leave as well, one manages to control cognitively for a long period of time before it becomes something closer to auto-reactionary behavior. Good point.
BnaturAl: I tend to agree Hugz ... this study on feral children, has implications in social behavior, in consciousness, universal or otherwise, in our belief systems, in our morals and more importantly who we think we are.
Is there universal consciousness because we "think' there is?
Is there a cheese sandwhich in your purse because I 'think' there is?I totally agree with your last paragraph. We're as much humans because of our environmental indicators as dogs are by theirs.
I have watched kanine behavior shows and the same consequences happen to dogs that are removed from their mothers or the pack too soon. They appear to be easier to "stabalize" in normal dog behavior than humans are, by introducing them to a pack of dogs. Humans seem to be more difficult when it comes to righting the ship so to speak, in that regard. Who is more advanced?
a ton of questions
I would say instictually dogs are more advanced and also more prone to behavioral programming than humans are given the same set of circumstances....where humans are far more advanced in their complexities of mind and thought processes...and the capacity to change their behaviour in the slightest way...provided certain things are present in their early years....instinct doesn't just make us humans...we also have the capacity to think...make choices based on rational or irrational thought processes...we have a conscience unless again there is a blip or flaw in our genetic or biological make-up....so while children are susceptible to behavioural programming from the time of birth up until a certain age....after that age...it is no longer programming...it's choice...to stay the same...to evolve...to grow...to discard certain behaviour patterns and re-learn new healthier ones...or alternatively to learn unhealthy behaviour patterns that are detrimental...
kidatheart: Maybe these children have "reprogrammed" to being animalistic, seeing that they haven't had human contact, and lost touch with that collective conscious. They're pretty rare and isolated cases, but do offer some interesting questions.
I still believe that we have the innate ability to differentiate right from wrong, and have at least some morality instilled in us from birth, although we do learn from our surroundings, parents, peers....good and bad. That conditioning is a large part of growing up, and where we learn social construct, behavior, as well as how to survive in society. As you mentioned, the longer they're out in the wild, the harder it is to change. Same goes for a lot of behaviour, unless something drastic happens to alter that behaviour, perhaps even traumatic.
Just my .00034829 cents.
Hey Harry !
right and wrong ... another implication of this with so many of argueing that one person's right isnt another's right ... well... holy crap
Trauma I wonder if a child all of a sudden being pulled from the wild would experience it as a trauma, totally messing with the stabilzing of the child??? Trauma is pretty mind altering, just as a psychological event itself and on its own is difficult to wade through. Could be a psychological shut down events...
right and wrong ... another implication of this with so many of argueing that one person's right isnt another's right ... well... holy crap
Trauma I wonder if a child all of a sudden being pulled from the wild would experience it as a trauma, totally messing with the stabilzing of the child??? Trauma is pretty mind altering, just as a psychological event itself and on its own is difficult to wade through. Could be a psychological shut down events...
If we had instinct for right and wrong....then these "inferal children" would instinctually have some of it present....now...because they have to be taught and learn what it is.....at least based on societies concept....I say that because there can be no wrong...until you are taught that the concept of wrong exists there is only your basic instinctual wants and needs....such as hunger...warmth and shelter...needed to survive....
Hugz_n_Kissez: I would say instictually dogs are more advanced and also more prone to behavioral programming than humans are given the same set of circumstances....where humans are far more advanced in their complexities of mind and thought processes...and the capacity to change their behaviour in the slightest way...provided certain things are present in their early years....instinct doesn't just make us humans...we also have the capacity to think...make choices based on rational or irrational thought processes...we have a conscience unless again there is a blip or flaw in our genetic or biological make-up....so while children are susceptible to behavioural programming from the time of birth up until a certain age....after that age...it is no longer programming...it's choice...to stay the same...to evolve...to grow...to discard certain behaviour patterns and re-learn new healthier ones...or alternatively to learn unhealthy behaviour patterns that are detrimental...
Apparently these children weren't thinking before being found. That in itself could say a lot. Seems to mean that we don't think unless we are encouraged to. (not pointing any fingers ) Alternatively we think on demand as it were. At least thats how it appears to me.
Isn't conscience a behavioral social construct? I wonder if cats feel bad after eating a mouse?
You're not tying conscience to genetics are you hugz? I tend to think of these as separate entities myself. Genes carry physical code; but youre suggesting they also carry conscience a nd moral code?
BnaturAl: Apparently these children weren't thinking before being found. That in itself could say a lot. Seems to mean that we don't think unless we are encouraged to. (not pointing any fingers ) Alternatively we think on demand as it were. At least thats how it appears to me.
Isn't conscience a behavioral social construct? I wonder if cats feel bad after eating a mouse?You're not tying conscience to genetics are you hugz? I tend to think of these as separate entities myself. Genes carry physical code; but youre suggesting they also carry conscience a nd moral code?
Only if the mouse ate some mouse poison prior.....then the cat might feel bad.
Hugz_n_Kissez: If we had instinct for right and wrong....then these "inferal children" would instinctually have some of it present....now...because they have to be taught and learn what it is.....at least based on societies concept....I say that because there can be no wrong...until you are taught that the concept of wrong exists there is only your basic instinctual wants and needs....such as hunger...warmth and shelter...needed to survive....
yep I think the basics are there, not just for humans, but for all species. That could safley be called universal.
All else appears to be social behavior constructs that become auto-reactions, that are based in fight, flight, avoidance, or submission.
BnaturAl: Apparently these children weren't thinking before being found. That in itself could say a lot. Seems to mean that we don't think unless we are encouraged to. (not pointing any fingers ) Alternatively we think on demand as it were. At least thats how it appears to me.
Isn't conscience a behavioral social construct? I wonder if cats feel bad after eating a mouse?You're not tying conscience to genetics are you hugz? I tend to think of these as separate entities myself. Genes carry physical code; but youre suggesting they also carry conscience a nd moral code?
They were thinking...but only about and based on their instinct to survive...there is nothing else around to stimulate their thought processes or to allow them to detract from anything but the instinct to survive...there is no other human around to help them to survive or teach them...so instinctually they do it the best way they know how...I have to eat...I have to be warm...and I need shelter to do that....I don't think what makes up or conscience in terms or morals can be constructed by society....but I do link it not to genetics...but to brain function and the capacity to feel for others...to empathize and to be able to feel compassion....the main example I use is that of psychopaths..who lack all of these abilities and whose brains have been proven scientifically to be different than non-psychopaths...thus determining that some area of brain function determines our capacity to develop in these areas...so simply knowing in ones mind that killing is morally wrong...is not enough to stop a psychopath from killing because they lack the capacity to feel for others....
Hugz_n_Kissez: They were thinking...but only about and based on their instinct to survive...there is nothing else around to stimulate their thought processes or to allow them to detract from anything but the instinct to survive...there is no other human around to help them to survive or teach them...so instinctually they do it the best way they know how...I have to eat...I have to be warm...and I need shelter to do that....I DO think what makes up our conscience in terms or morals can be constructed by society....but I also do link it not to genetics...but to brain function and the capacity to feel for others...to empathize and to be able to feel compassion....the main example I use is that of psychopaths..who lack all of these abilities and whose brains have been proven scientifically to be different than non-psychopaths...thus determining that some area of brain function determines our capacity to develop in these areas...so simply knowing in ones mind that killing is morally wrong...is not enough to stop a psychopath from killing because they lack the capacity to feel for others....
Report threads that break rules, are offensive, or contain fighting. Staff may not be aware of the forum abuse, and cannot do anything about it unless you tell us about it. click to report forum abuse »
If one of the comments is offensive, please report the comment instead (there is a link in each comment to report it).
Several documented cases are available and researchable.
It appears that most things that we are, come from environmental imprinting. Without parents teaching the cognition we would be little more than animals.
This ties in with a thread not long ago dealing with monogamy and the discussion that it was inherent in humans to be monagamous. Personally I think it's behavioral; and these studies seem to bare that out.
My question is: Given that we have the tendancy to think we are cognitive sentient beings by birth, do the facts of "feral children" disprove what we think is inherent cognitive morals? It appears we are more prone to behavioral indicators than supposed inherent morals?