Time to dissolve the EU/Monetary Union? (20)

Jun 11, 2011 12:10 AM CST Time to dissolve the EU/Monetary Union?
Scubadiva
ScubadivaScubadivaNew Jersey, USA106 Threads 11 Polls 2,689 Posts
I used to think the EU was a good idea in view of globalization to remain competitive, but watching its development over the last 10 years, it seems it has grown into nothing but an additional layer of bureaucracy and the benefits have been limited to making corporate europe richer and the rest of all of us poorer.

I say, time to dissolve this mess. What do you think?
Jun 11, 2011 4:26 AM CST Time to dissolve the EU/Monetary Union?
carenza
carenzacarenzanear the sea, South Holland Netherlands82 Threads 1 Polls 3,113 Posts
Scubadiva: I used to think the EU was a good idea in view of globalization to remain competitive, but watching its development over the last 10 years, it seems it has grown into nothing but an additional layer of bureaucracy and the benefits have been limited to making corporate europe richer and the rest of all of us poorer.

I say, time to dissolve this mess. What do you think?


yeah....the sooner, the better.

time to get back to what it once was, before Brussels became big.
Jun 11, 2011 9:00 AM CST Time to dissolve the EU/Monetary Union?
mickeyscouse
mickeyscousemickeyscouseLondon, Greater London, England UK27 Threads 1 Polls 2,065 Posts
yay YES applause
Jun 11, 2011 11:30 AM CST Time to dissolve the EU/Monetary Union?
DTYPE100
DTYPE100DTYPE100near Nontron, Nouvelle-Aquitaine France2 Posts
In response to: I used to think the EU was a good idea in view of globalization to remain competitive, but watching its development over the last 10 years, it seems it has grown into nothing but an additional layer of bureaucracy and the benefits have been limited to making corporate europe richer and the rest of all of us poorer.

I say, time to dissolve this mess. What do you think?


The EC is a corrupt, arrogant, unelected, undemocratic body that only accepts YES as an answer to it's referendums, if it's a NO , then countries are ignored or told go back and rethink,until the answer is yes ie. Ireland, France, Holland. Every year they steal hundreds of millions of £'s of our money, and the corrupt people whom have been named, are still in their highly paid, highly benefited (paid for by you and I) jobs.

Their accounts have not been approved and signed off by the auditors for fourteen years - yet they are still in their jobs. As a Company Director in England if my accounts are more than four weeks behind I am threatened with a fine a criminal prosecution, and imprisonment, and that's for privately owned companies , not operating and owing nothing to no-one except the private owners. Seventy percent of laws in England are made by these corrupt officials in Brussels, our Parliament - only in being since eleven hundred is almost irelevant.

I forecast considerable civil unrest and strife in the next few years as more and more people realise that indeed the United Socialist State of the E.U really is here!
Jun 11, 2011 10:28 PM CST Time to dissolve the EU/Monetary Union?
CuspofMagic
CuspofMagicCuspofMagiclight, South Australia Australia278 Threads 7,904 Posts
Irrespective of human - frailties ...divided you become - insular..etc
Jun 12, 2011 12:30 AM CST Time to dissolve the EU/Monetary Union?
Scubadiva
ScubadivaScubadivaNew Jersey, USA106 Threads 11 Polls 2,689 Posts
My goodness, no disagreement laugh

I quite agree that the dispensation of funds seems arbitrary and the motives for spending are at times highly questionable.

The high flying ideals of free movement of people and creating a united states of Europe sound great in theory, but the reality is quite different.
Jun 12, 2011 12:47 AM CST Time to dissolve the EU/Monetary Union?
carenza
carenzacarenzanear the sea, South Holland Netherlands82 Threads 1 Polls 3,113 Posts
DTYPE100: I forecast considerable civil unrest and strife in the next few years as more and more people realise that indeed the United Socialist State of the E.U really is here!


yeah....well said.....this is what bothers me most.

I work my toes off to pay tax which goes to Brussels.

I read in an dutch article in elsevier (can't place a link, it's in dutch) that dutch citizens are working untill june 17 th every year for the tax collector....every euro earned after this date, is your own finally. and then you still have to pay for mortgage, daycare, energy, phone and so on.
no wonder peeps get into trouble financially.

everything became more expensive here after the arrival of the euro.

people got upset but our left wing social politicians told us it was needed.
anyway....the normal political mumbojumbo...about solidarity and working together....

then right wing-central was voted to reign the country and people are starting to have voices and opinions again. wherever I go, I hear them.

irony in this is....we, the people, are told to be solidair and working together...share our money with people less fortunate...
(read, greece) whilst in the mean time, these left wing socialists are filliing their private pockets with collective money...and as soon they get out of politics, are taking a job as a consultant with companies they politically fought before.....

we dutch, have never been so far from our path.....

blues
Jun 12, 2011 1:20 AM CST Time to dissolve the EU/Monetary Union?
Scubadiva: My goodness, no disagreement

I quite agree that the dispensation of funds seems arbitrary and the motives for spending are at times highly questionable.

The high flying ideals of free movement of people and creating a united states of Europe sound great in theory, but the reality is quite different.
Would have been great,if it hadn't become so Centralist!frustrated
Jun 12, 2011 6:17 AM CST Time to dissolve the EU/Monetary Union?
Tulefel
TulefelTulefelGöteborg, Vastra Gotaland Sweden24 Threads 1 Polls 2,848 Posts
Scubadiva: I used to think the EU was a good idea in view of globalization to remain competitive, but watching its development over the last 10 years, it seems it has grown into nothing but an additional layer of bureaucracy and the benefits have been limited to making corporate europe richer and the rest of all of us poorer.

I say, time to dissolve this mess. What do you think?


They keep saying that the crisis is over, but it’s known that centrifugal forces in an empire tend to increase in strained times. Whom to believe?

laugh
Jun 12, 2011 7:46 AM CST Time to dissolve the EU/Monetary Union?
Scubadiva
ScubadivaScubadivaNew Jersey, USA106 Threads 11 Polls 2,689 Posts
Tulefel: They keep saying that the crisis is over, but it’s known that centrifugal forces in an empire tend to increase in strained times. Whom to believe?


Is there anybody believable left? Anybody not motivated by self-interest of one or the other variety? I don't think so, to be honest.
Jun 12, 2011 11:12 AM CST Time to dissolve the EU/Monetary Union?
Tulefel
TulefelTulefelGöteborg, Vastra Gotaland Sweden24 Threads 1 Polls 2,848 Posts
Scubadiva: Is there anybody believable left? Anybody not motivated by self-interest of one or the other variety? I don't think so, to be honest.


Being rather an Asiopean myself, I couldn’t evaluate whether there ever been sentiments of belonging to the same super-ethnos among Western European countries. Among the Nordic – yes, there is such a sentiment, but as I’ve understood, they have a long tradition of cooperation and a lot of similarity in many fields.

The idea was great, those four freedoms: capital, people, goods and, don’t remember the fourth, are to be the resources freely allocated there it’s most economically appropriate at a given moment within the union. (Always had my doubts about the people issue though.) And a lot of people have profited from this policy in one or another way. That we’ve got an enormous bureaucratic apparatus that looks only after its own best in the process… Well, there’s no right without left, and no light without darkness. laugh

Curious to know whether there is any scenario that would allow dissolving, as you call it, the mess in any plausibly pain free way?

cheers
Jun 14, 2011 3:14 AM CST Time to dissolve the EU/Monetary Union?
mitsos
mitsosmitsoslarnaca,famagusta, Nicosia Cyprus17 Threads 801 Posts
Scubadiva: I used to think the EU was a good idea in view of globalization to remain competitive, but watching its development over the last 10 years, it seems it has grown into nothing but an additional layer of bureaucracy and the benefits have been limited to making corporate europe richer and the rest of all of us poorer.

I say, time to dissolve this mess. What do you think?
It started as a great idea but on tyhe way the usual thing happened.Scammers and corrupted politicians used it to their benefitvery mad
Jun 14, 2011 3:57 AM CST Time to dissolve the EU/Monetary Union?
chris27292729
chris27292729chris27292729IOS island, South Aegean Greece93 Threads 15,811 Posts
The idea of the EU was and still is to unite,all countries to become US of Europe.-This idea needs generations to become reality,and what i think is this.-If we start dismandlint,the goal having Europe united,is not achievable.JMO
Scubadiva: I used to think the EU was a good idea in view of globalization to remain competitive, but watching its development over the last 10 years, it seems it has grown into nothing but an additional layer of bureaucracy and the benefits have been limited to making corporate europe richer and the rest of all of us poorer.

I say, time to dissolve this mess. What do you think?
Jun 14, 2011 8:41 AM CST Time to dissolve the EU/Monetary Union?
chris27292729: The idea of the EU was and still is to unite,all countries to become US of Europe.-This idea needs generations to become reality,and what i think is this.-If we start dismandlint,the goal having Europe united,is not achievable.JMO
It will fall apart way before those Objectives are reached!laugh
Jun 14, 2011 8:58 AM CST Time to dissolve the EU/Monetary Union?
Stylian
StylianStylianNicosia, Cyprus29 Posts
Scubadiva: My goodness, no disagreement

I quite agree that the dispensation of funds seems arbitrary and the motives for spending are at times highly questionable.

The high flying ideals of free movement of people and creating a united states of Europe sound great in theory, but the reality is quite different.


In my humble opinion, dissolving the EMU would be the worst shock the EU and the world economy could use at the moment.

Given Greece's debt crisis and the government's liabilities towards foreign creditors, a break up of the euro area would lead to heavy losses for them, with a large portion of them being Germans or French. The mechanism would be a renomination of the debt they now hold into the new drachmas which would be devaluated. Then imagine this also with Portugal and Ireland.

As headache is not cured with decapitation, so, problems caused by poor fiscal, economic policies or lenient banking supervision need appropriate approach.

An appropriate approach is not exhausted in a bailout or an austerity program with a 5-year or 10-year horizon. It rather requires a radical change in culture and values in societies in general not only among policy makers. This can ensure that a recovery is sustainable, or as you say in German, 'nachhaltig'.

And something else: breaking up the EMU could risk breaking up the EU, which would also be a bad idea as it has achieved something that was thought impossible 70 years ago, to bring peace to the continent and allow its people to live in security.

Just think of how many wars we had between the French and the Germans for instance, who happen to be the driving force behind the EMU and EU, and fought each other with a frequency of 20 to 40 years before the establishment of the EU.

P.S. The euro remains despite the debt crisis of some periphery economies a strong currency, the strongest main currency perhaps in the world, just because it founds on price stability. Some ten years ago it only buy $0.82 and it buys today $1.44.
Jun 14, 2011 9:24 AM CST Time to dissolve the EU/Monetary Union?
chris27292729
chris27292729chris27292729IOS island, South Aegean Greece93 Threads 15,811 Posts
Time will tell,if your predictions proven right.-
Conrad73: It will fall apart way before those Objectives are reached!
Jun 14, 2011 12:24 PM CST Time to dissolve the EU/Monetary Union?
Stylian: In my humble opinion, dissolving the EMU would be the worst shock the EU and the world economy could use at the moment.

Given Greece's debt crisis and the government's liabilities towards foreign creditors, a break up of the euro area would lead to heavy losses for them, with a large portion of them being Germans or French. The mechanism would be a renomination of the debt they now hold into the new drachmas which would be devaluated. Then imagine this also with Portugal and Ireland.

As headache is not cured with decapitation, so, problems caused by poor fiscal, economic policies or lenient banking supervision need appropriate approach.

An appropriate approach is not exhausted in a bailout or an austerity program with a 5-year or 10-year horizon. It rather requires a radical change in culture and values in societies in general not only among policy makers. This can ensure that a recovery is sustainable, or as you say in German, 'nachhaltig'.

And something else: breaking up the EMU could risk breaking up the EU, which would also be a bad idea as it has achieved something that was thought impossible 70 years ago, to bring peace to the continent and allow its people to live in security.

Just think of how many wars we had between the French and the Germans for instance, who happen to be the driving force behind the EMU and EU, and fought each other with a frequency of 20 to 40 years before the establishment of the EU.

P.S. The euro remains despite the debt crisis of some periphery economies a strong currency, the strongest main currency perhaps in the world, just because it founds on price stability. Some ten years ago it only buy $0.82 and it buys today $1.44.
an expensive exercise for just keeping two Idiots from tearing the Continent apart once in a Generation!laugh
Jun 14, 2011 12:48 PM CST Time to dissolve the EU/Monetary Union?
Stylian
StylianStylianNicosia, Cyprus29 Posts
Conrad73: an expensive exercise for just keeping two Idiots from tearing the Continent apart once in a Generation!


Believe me, it's worth it. The Americans can't afford another Marshall Plan right now

rolling on the floor laughing rolling on the floor laughing rolling on the floor laughing
Jun 14, 2011 2:03 PM CST Time to dissolve the EU/Monetary Union?
Stylian: Believe me, it's worth it. The Americans can't afford another Marshall Plan right now
so you think taking away all sorts of Liberties is worth it?uh oh
Jun 14, 2011 2:59 PM CST Time to dissolve the EU/Monetary Union?
Stylian
StylianStylianNicosia, Cyprus29 Posts
Conrad73: so you think taking away all sorts of Liberties is worth it?


The EU can never become a centralistic structure, that is for sure, given its cultural and ethnic diversity. Alone Switzerland should serve as an example.

But if a populist politician now finds it more difficult to fulfill his/her generous pre-election promises -which is btw a common phenomenon in sevral southern European countries, including mine-, then that is not a restriction in liberties, nor is it when consensus is required in the collective decision making process to curb maximalism.

In fact, I believe that EU citizens enjoy a lot of rights, individual and collective human rights, especially when compared to most other countries in the world. Of course this does not mean there is no scope for improvement. I think the challenge is to allow clocks to move clockwise rather than to stop them or force them to move backwards.
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