Which is superior? (79)
jono7: Canada...
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(hiya galrads ..
Conrad73: the Topic actually is,whether Capitalism or Socialism is superior!
But it seems the US-Bashers always find a way to get to their favorite Topic!
But it seems the US-Bashers always find a way to get to their favorite Topic!
Not US-Bashers, but a sad fact about capitalism and US..
Lets see, although “The Wealth of Nations”, was the first description of capitalism, it was also attributed to the Protestant Work Ethic. But the reality is a little different. François Quesnay, when he published the Tableau économique, provided the foundations. But lets not deal with who but the main “course”- what makes a capitalist society:
Property Rights(capital of those who produce)
The Ruling of Law (Impartial application of the law)
The Nature of the People (The drive to improve)
Respect for the Profit (wealth creation as socially beneficial)
Sound Money (the money’s value reflects each of the above)
US now does not respects each of these principles. US still a wealthy society thanks to the accumulation of capital left by more prudent people, long time ago, when US were a capitalist society…. not anymore…
Bogart_1960: Not US-Bashers, but a sad fact about capitalism and US..
Lets see, although “The Wealth of Nations”, was the first description of capitalism, it was also attributed to the Protestant Work Ethic. But the reality is a little different. François Quesnay, when he published the Tableau économique, provided the foundations. But lets not deal with who but the main “course”- what makes a capitalist society:
Property Rights(capital of those who produce)
The Ruling of Law (Impartial application of the law)
The Nature of the People (The drive to improve)
Respect for the Profit (wealth creation as socially beneficial)
Sound Money (the money’s value reflects each of the above)
US now does not respects each of these principles. US still a wealthy society thanks to the accumulation of capital left by more prudent people, long time ago, when US were a capitalist society…. not anymore…
Lets see, although “The Wealth of Nations”, was the first description of capitalism, it was also attributed to the Protestant Work Ethic. But the reality is a little different. François Quesnay, when he published the Tableau économique, provided the foundations. But lets not deal with who but the main “course”- what makes a capitalist society:
Property Rights(capital of those who produce)
The Ruling of Law (Impartial application of the law)
The Nature of the People (The drive to improve)
Respect for the Profit (wealth creation as socially beneficial)
Sound Money (the money’s value reflects each of the above)
US now does not respects each of these principles. US still a wealthy society thanks to the accumulation of capital left by more prudent people, long time ago, when US were a capitalist society…. not anymore…
Free trade is the issue. Washington, Lincoln, Jefferson.. none of these three could be described as free-traders, indeed America boomed by not competing with the industrial powehouses of Europe(think of how this relates West-East relationship today),yet for some reason America seems to have embraced globalism under its skewed "capitalist" narrative.
Obstinance_Works: Free trade is the issue. Washington, Lincoln, Jefferson.. none of these three could be described as free-traders, indeed America boomed by not competing with the industrial powehouses of Europe(think of how this relates West-East relationship today),yet for some reason America seems to have embraced globalism under its skewed "capitalist" narrative.
agree with the idea; but not completely.. lets get back to history, and "washington, Lincoln, Jefferson" era... the opportunities "in house" were superior to any "free trade".. for me it has to do with government control, and not adapting capitalism to a new era..
lets recall what Ronald Reagan said, “Governments don’t control things. Governments control people.”- control mechanism involves ruling the use of property.... so goodbye free trade, etc...
Bogart_1960: agree with the idea; but not completely.. lets get back to history, and "washington, Lincoln, Jefferson" era... the opportunities "in house" were superior to any "free trade".. for me it has to do with government control, and not adapting capitalism to a new era..
lets recall what Ronald Reagan said, “Governments don’t control things. Governments control people.”- control mechanism involves ruling the use of property.... so goodbye free trade, etc...
lets recall what Ronald Reagan said, “Governments don’t control things. Governments control people.”- control mechanism involves ruling the use of property.... so goodbye free trade, etc...
We've seen an expansion of free trade though haven't we. The proof is in the vast industrial districts of China, which have crippled the industrial heartlands of neraly every Western country. But Reagan is correct, government does control people - it's called Law & Order and civilised society - and you/we need the government to force business to develop the West as opposed to sweating the East. We need "in house" now more than ever.
Obstinance_Works: We've seen an expansion of free trade though haven't we. The proof is in the vast industrial districts of China, which have crippled the industrial heartlands of neraly every Western country. But Reagan is correct, government does control people - it's called Law & Order and civilised society - and you/we need the government to force business to develop the West as opposed to sweating the East. We need "in house" now more than ever.
no, no...we dont need "law & Order and civilised society".. by the way, what is civilized society??
First: agree "free trade" has expanded, just see all those agreements... but due to "control capitalism" where western governments had "democracy plans" for other countries
second..."vast industrial districts of China"..were created by western companies (supported by western government) ..in 80´s/90s...
third: "We need "in house" now more than ever"- true... but not by control government laws..
I dont want some "elected Frick" to decide what is civilized...
Bogart_1960: no, no...we dont need "law & Order and civilised society".. by the way, what is civilized society??
First: agree "free trade" has expanded, just see all those agreements... but due to "control capitalism" where western governments had "democracy plans" for other countries
second..."vast industrial districts of China"..were created by western companies (supported by western government) ..in 80´s/90s...
third: "We need "in house" now more than ever"- true... but not by control government laws..
I dont want some "elected Frick" to decide what is civilized...
First: agree "free trade" has expanded, just see all those agreements... but due to "control capitalism" where western governments had "democracy plans" for other countries
second..."vast industrial districts of China"..were created by western companies (supported by western government) ..in 80´s/90s...
third: "We need "in house" now more than ever"- true... but not by control government laws..
I dont want some "elected Frick" to decide what is civilized...
A civilised society has a government which oversees public affairs. The specifics of what is "civilised" is(to an extent)a subjective manifestation of the culture.
And do you really believe that the thrust of globalisation is about expanding democracy and not increasing profit and material consumption? You think Humanity places moral interests above the physical? I'd have to disagree, people fight for their interests far more fiercely than they will fight for their rights.
The only other way, the market way, of beating Chinese industry is by making our standard of living and conditions lower than that of the Chinese. No civilised and sane society would knowingly do such a thing, and if it did, then the kids will hate you for it(and we do).
Obstinance_Works: A civilised society has a government which oversees public affairs. The specifics of what is "civilised" is(to an extent)a subjective manifestation of the culture.
And do you really believe that the thrust of globalisation is about expanding democracy and not increasing profit and material consumption? You think Humanity places moral interests above the physical? I'd have to disagree, people fight for their interests far more fiercely than they will fight for their rights.
The only other way, the market way, of beating Chinese industry is by making our standard of living and conditions lower than that of the Chinese. No civilised and sane society would knowingly do such a thing, and if it did, then the kids will hate you for it(and we do).
And do you really believe that the thrust of globalisation is about expanding democracy and not increasing profit and material consumption? You think Humanity places moral interests above the physical? I'd have to disagree, people fight for their interests far more fiercely than they will fight for their rights.
The only other way, the market way, of beating Chinese industry is by making our standard of living and conditions lower than that of the Chinese. No civilised and sane society would knowingly do such a thing, and if it did, then the kids will hate you for it(and we do).
I will get back, but have a meeting now.
interesting... but dont agree...with some issues (lower living conditions)... "civilised society"..Bogart_1960: I will get back, but have a meeting now. interesting... but dont agree...with some issues (lower living conditions)... "civilised society"..
We either produce more per hour, or we get paid less per hour. Look around you, do you think a society which grants liberties, luxuries and privacy and space to the individual can compete, man to man, with a culture that has so few of the "inefficiencies" that make us Human?
Western workers can not compete with this and they are now(largely)surplus to productive requirements - hence the massive welfare state - and soon the great forces of treason and greed that destroyed the workers will be turned on the middle classes. And the only Western people left with wealth will be the internationalist, parasitic, have-yacht class which understands no concept of patriotism and loyalty to the home nation, and merely sees a country and land as a host for its existence.
Enjoy your meeting.
Obstinance_Works: Then we need to develop a system that accords to Human nature.
But what needs to be remembered is that there's a difference between the civilsed man and the savage - or there could be no art, no culture and no science - The civilised man will think objectively and abstractly over the longterm in enlightened self-interest, the savage(see Conrad)will respond to nothing but instinctive animal lusts and motivations of immediate self-interest.
In any case, we need a system that accurately refelcts how much of the population is civilised and how much is savage at any given time. Socialism, I feel, is above Humanity except under highly exceptional circumstances and times - which is why it leads to the Gulag.
damn,they sure filled you with some Tribalist Crap!But what needs to be remembered is that there's a difference between the civilsed man and the savage - or there could be no art, no culture and no science - The civilised man will think objectively and abstractly over the longterm in enlightened self-interest, the savage(see Conrad)will respond to nothing but instinctive animal lusts and motivations of immediate self-interest.
In any case, we need a system that accurately refelcts how much of the population is civilised and how much is savage at any given time. Socialism, I feel, is above Humanity except under highly exceptional circumstances and times - which is why it leads to the Gulag.
Obstinance_Works: Then we need to develop a system that accords to Human nature.
But what needs to be remembered is that there's a difference between the civilsed man and the savage - or there could be no art, no culture and no science - The civilised man will think objectively and abstractly over the longterm in enlightened self-interest, the savage(see Conrad)will respond to nothing but instinctive animal lusts and motivations of immediate self-interest.
In any case, we need a system that accurately refelcts how much of the population is civilised and how much is savage at any given time. Socialism, I feel, is above Humanity except under highly exceptional circumstances and times - which is why it leads to the Gulag.
Funny,really,you calling others Savage,when at the same time you propose to implement your Collectivist/Statist Ideas by Force!But what needs to be remembered is that there's a difference between the civilsed man and the savage - or there could be no art, no culture and no science - The civilised man will think objectively and abstractly over the longterm in enlightened self-interest, the savage(see Conrad)will respond to nothing but instinctive animal lusts and motivations of immediate self-interest.
In any case, we need a system that accurately refelcts how much of the population is civilised and how much is savage at any given time. Socialism, I feel, is above Humanity except under highly exceptional circumstances and times - which is why it leads to the Gulag.
Good luck with your Utopia!
Iuchi_Zien: Because the vast majority of the population are greedy, selfish and have no idea of where their taxes go and what they pay for. They expect everybody ELSE to pay for things but when it is their turn at the trough they barge everybody out of the way. If you, Conrad, are happy to move the corpses of the starved from the road as you drive past, or more likely, over them then that is your problem. But when you have that car stolen you'd better be prepared to pay for its finding and recovery yourself. And don't expect me to pay for the punishment of the person who stole it.
that is exactly what happens in your Socialist Paradise!Failure upon Failure upon Failure of that System,yet you all still haven't wised up!
How many more Corpses does it take until you all smarten up?
Mmmmmmmmmm. boing... Is it true Greeks used to practice cannibalism and kicked their children out to the curb at 3-years of age?
boing... Is it true Greeks used to practice cannibalism and kicked their children out to the curb at 3-years of age?chris27292729: Non... Both serve plutocracy
they already went Cracy on Pluto,and stole his planetary status!What else do you want!
chris27292729: Virgin islands.
Mmmmmmmmmm. boing... Is it true Greeks used to practice cannibalism and kicked their children out to the curb at 3-years of age?
Conrad73: Funny,really,you calling others Savage,when at the same time you propose to implement your Collectivist/Statist Ideas by Force!
Good luck with your Utopia!
Good luck with your Utopia!
What force? Globalism, immigration & Liberal education are the three things I oppose more than anything else. Opposition to each of these is high upon the agenda for the average voter, pronouncedly so for the first two.
Since when did everything that wasn't raw selfishness and outright treason becomes evil statism - why don't you call it evil statism when Lincoln or Washington did it?... I know why, because you're a dishonest and self-serving git who knows that calling Lincoln an evil statist would not curry favour for you.
Were you bullied in High school, Conrad? See, I'm just trying to understand where your contempt for the common man comes from? A contempt so strong that you would see China crowned as the world's greatest superpower before admitting you may be mistaken. Which emotion is it in you that makes you immune to reality to such an extent that you de facto support a system that violates everything you apparently stand for?
Or do you just have no scruples whatsoever, just like every "Capitalist" enriching themselves from statist labour right now as we speak.
Obstinance_Works: What force? Globalism, immigration & Liberal education are the three things I oppose more than anything else. Opposition to each of these is high upon the agenda for the average voter, pronouncedly so for the first two.
Since when did everything that wasn't raw selfishness and outright treason becomes evil statism - why don't you call it evil statism when Lincoln or Washington did it?... I know why, because you're a dishonest and self-serving git who knows that calling Lincoln an evil statist would not curry favour for you.
Were you bullied in High school, Conrad? See, I'm just trying to understand where your contempt for the common man comes from? A contempt so strong that you would see China crowned as the world's greatest superpower before admitting you may be mistaken. Which emotion is it in you that makes you immune to reality to such an extent that you de facto support a system that violates everything you apparently stand for?
Or do you just have no scruples whatsoever, just like every "Capitalist" enriching themselves from statist labour right now as we speak.
Since when did everything that wasn't raw selfishness and outright treason becomes evil statism - why don't you call it evil statism when Lincoln or Washington did it?... I know why, because you're a dishonest and self-serving git who knows that calling Lincoln an evil statist would not curry favour for you.
Were you bullied in High school, Conrad? See, I'm just trying to understand where your contempt for the common man comes from? A contempt so strong that you would see China crowned as the world's greatest superpower before admitting you may be mistaken. Which emotion is it in you that makes you immune to reality to such an extent that you de facto support a system that violates everything you apparently stand for?
Or do you just have no scruples whatsoever, just like every "Capitalist" enriching themselves from statist labour right now as we speak.
Obstinance_Works: What force? Globalism, immigration & Liberal education are the three things I oppose more than anything else. Opposition to each of these is high upon the agenda for the average voter, pronouncedly so for the first two.
Since when did everything that wasn't raw selfishness and outright treason becomes evil statism - why don't you call it evil statism when Lincoln or Washington did it?... I know why, because you're a dishonest and self-serving git who knows that calling Lincoln an evil statist would not curry favour for you.
Were you bullied in High school, Conrad? See, I'm just trying to understand where your contempt for the common man comes from? A contempt so strong that you would see China crowned as the world's greatest superpower before admitting you may be mistaken. Which emotion is it in you that makes you immune to reality to such an extent that you de facto support a system that violates everything you apparently stand for?
Or do you just have no scruples whatsoever, just like every "Capitalist" enriching themselves from statist labour right now as we speak.
you don't even understand the Terms you use,yet expect People to take you serious!Since when did everything that wasn't raw selfishness and outright treason becomes evil statism - why don't you call it evil statism when Lincoln or Washington did it?... I know why, because you're a dishonest and self-serving git who knows that calling Lincoln an evil statist would not curry favour for you.
Were you bullied in High school, Conrad? See, I'm just trying to understand where your contempt for the common man comes from? A contempt so strong that you would see China crowned as the world's greatest superpower before admitting you may be mistaken. Which emotion is it in you that makes you immune to reality to such an extent that you de facto support a system that violates everything you apparently stand for?
Or do you just have no scruples whatsoever, just like every "Capitalist" enriching themselves from statist labour right now as we speak.
And ad Hominem seems to be your only way out now!
Quit while you're ahead!
People have seen through you long ago!
KIBALUV: Why is America the only country in the world referred to as "The land of opportunity?" Because it is capitalist based. I don't see anyone flocking to socialist countries! If someone doesn't like capitalism, then MOVE to a country that is already socialist, but don't try to drag down the greatest nation on earth.
Let's say America used to be called 'The land of opportunity'. Being an American you may think that America is the greatest nation on Earth, but many other nations have similar sentiments. But the view from outside may be quite different than that of the insider, more critical. Sure, many people from poor countries still see US as a land of opportunity, but I dare to say that many people no longer see the US as such. Nor do many Americans - just read the comments on the forums full of despair and hopelessness about the future.
Which social order is superior? Capitalism is good at producing goods and acquiring wealth for some. The wealth does 'trickle down' to some extent, but it is an overestimation that all will benefit from capitalism, because the 'trickle down stream' gets thinner and thinner lower down, so it excludes many. It does not always produce the right goods, too. And it does not care about the environmental effects in it's chase for profit, so it is not perfect.
Socialism is more concerned with equal distribution of fruits of labour, but often lacks incentives to produce what people want, so there may be lack of goods, which is not perfect. It redistributes wealth and gives people opportunities to good, although not very wealthy, life.
No country is socialist or capitalist in its pure form. Socialist China has capitalist relations of production, and capitalist America and UK, for example, have some socialist redistribution systems. May be the mix of capitalism and socialism is the way to go, I don't know. People should may be look at what works, rather than be lead by ideology alone. At the moment, the traditional capitalist countries are in crisis, while the countries where capitalist production is somewhat regulated by socialist politics, are on the rise. Will be interesting to see how things will turn out.
joyaepace: Let's say America used to be called 'The land of opportunity'. Being an American you may think that America is the greatest nation on Earth, but many other nations have similar sentiments. But the view from outside may be quite different than that of the insider, more critical. Sure, many people from poor countries still see US as a land of opportunity, but I dare to say that many people no longer see the US as such. Nor do many Americans - just read the comments on the forums full of despair and hopelessness about the future.
Which social order is superior? Capitalism is good at producing goods and acquiring wealth for some. The wealth does 'trickle down' to some extent, but it is an overestimation that all will benefit from capitalism, because the 'trickle down stream' gets thinner and thinner lower down, so it excludes many. It does not always produce the right goods, too. And it does not care about the environmental effects in it's chase for profit, so it is not perfect.
Socialism is more concerned with equal distribution of fruits of labour, but often lacks incentives to produce what people want, so there may be lack of goods, which is not perfect. It redistributes wealth and gives people opportunities to good, although not very wealthy, life.
No country is socialist or capitalist in its pure form. Socialist China has capitalist relations of production, and capitalist America and UK, for example, have some socialist redistribution systems. May be the mix of capitalism and socialism is the way to go, I don't know. People should may be look at what works, rather than be lead by ideology alone. At the moment, the traditional capitalist countries are in crisis, while the countries where capitalist production is somewhat regulated by socialist politics, are on the rise. Will be interesting to see how things will turn out.
Which social order is superior? Capitalism is good at producing goods and acquiring wealth for some. The wealth does 'trickle down' to some extent, but it is an overestimation that all will benefit from capitalism, because the 'trickle down stream' gets thinner and thinner lower down, so it excludes many. It does not always produce the right goods, too. And it does not care about the environmental effects in it's chase for profit, so it is not perfect.
Socialism is more concerned with equal distribution of fruits of labour, but often lacks incentives to produce what people want, so there may be lack of goods, which is not perfect. It redistributes wealth and gives people opportunities to good, although not very wealthy, life.
No country is socialist or capitalist in its pure form. Socialist China has capitalist relations of production, and capitalist America and UK, for example, have some socialist redistribution systems. May be the mix of capitalism and socialism is the way to go, I don't know. People should may be look at what works, rather than be lead by ideology alone. At the moment, the traditional capitalist countries are in crisis, while the countries where capitalist production is somewhat regulated by socialist politics, are on the rise. Will be interesting to see how things will turn out.
actually that mixed Bag is Fascism,nothing to do with Capitalism at all!
Government-steered Production!
Red or White Fascism!
Doesn't really matter!
galrads: Mmmmmmmmmm. boing... Is it true Greeks used to practice cannibalism and kicked their children out to the curb at 3-years of age?
Americans have resorted to cannibalism at times too!
'Proof' Jamestown settlers turned to cannibalism:
Bogart_1960: America WAS the land of opportunity..for emigrants, (history shows all great fortunes were achieve by emigrants)... but by your comments...I can see that you still living in the 1800´s... so no more comments.
True.
Conrad73: actually that mixed Bag is Fascism,nothing to do with Capitalism at all!
Government-steered Production!
Red or White Fascism!
Doesn't really matter!
Government-steered Production!
Red or White Fascism!
Doesn't really matter!
Government steered production is a reality in large countries, such as China, Brazil, Russia, do you like it or not, and they are called 'rising powers' now. There is nothing settled in the world, capitalism worked well for some time, it may have exhausted it's potential now, possibly because it does not produce goods people really need or can afford, and because many people are excluded from the capitalist production system. Capitalism has failed, as has socialism. I don't know, what next. May be 'mixed bag' or something else, but why it must necessarily be fascism?
That Ayn Rand quote is aimed at the government, isn't it. I certainly agree about the dangers it poses, but would anarchy be better? Unfortunately our choices are not between the good and bad, but between the worst and the least evil.
Obstinance_Works: A civilised society has a government which oversees public affairs. The specifics of what is "civilised" is(to an extent)a subjective manifestation of the culture.
And do you really believe that the thrust of globalisation is about expanding democracy and not increasing profit and material consumption? You think Humanity places moral interests above the physical? I'd have to disagree, people fight for their interests far more fiercely than they will fight for their rights.
The only other way, the market way, of beating Chinese industry is by making our standard of living and conditions lower than that of the Chinese. No civilised and sane society would knowingly do such a thing, and if it did, then the kids will hate you for it(and we do).
And do you really believe that the thrust of globalisation is about expanding democracy and not increasing profit and material consumption? You think Humanity places moral interests above the physical? I'd have to disagree, people fight for their interests far more fiercely than they will fight for their rights.
The only other way, the market way, of beating Chinese industry is by making our standard of living and conditions lower than that of the Chinese. No civilised and sane society would knowingly do such a thing, and if it did, then the kids will hate you for it(and we do).
A civilized society is one that has a progressive and humane culture. That’s what I define civilized society. Of course, a civilized society should have laws - that are fair and should protect its people's. But now, we get into what is “fair”.. and who makes those laws…. (not common laws)
But if “civilized” means living within accepted social structures, even the most “uncivilized” tribes do it…so where “government “ fits” I don’t know. And, a real civilized society has to be more educated…. But as long as there is “greed” and egoism it doesn't matter whether we have a “civilized society” or not.
Now, lets get to “free trade”…The first is that it isn’t countries that trade, it is people (companies). And things which people do freely, without force, are by definition free and fair. But we know is not free or “fair”…because there are those “trade agreements” and they define what is “free and fair”… thus making these “free trade” not really free/fair trade…
But another objective of free trade is to get import products, the products, we “the civilized “ don’t want to make; is not to balance by exports. Imports are the profit, exports just the boring labor work we do so we can afford those imports we want… so here is the point… basically the western society don’t want to do the “boring work” anymore….because we created a “civilized society”, based on some kind of weird values…The values transmitted to a child resume to “you have to be a doctor”.. Maybe a bad one, but don’t work in a factory… (sure you know where I am going..), etc, etc…
We dont need to "beat" the chinese by lowering our standart of living... in fact, chinese factories are producing high technological products (Iphones,ctc) because we "civilized" dont want/cant make them.... education and work values...
we all look up to the USA kind of like a big brother
pedro27: we all look up to the USA kind of like a big brother
Ummm, no we all don't.
kidatheart: Ummm, no we all don't.
would u like the world leading country china russia ect, USA is superioer
pedro27: Well, the USA was built on better grounds then any other country, there the rule makers in a sense would you like a muslim country calling the shots? no justice country ect china ect like a lot of other so called countrys
Built on better grounds? Like slaughtering the native population and then starving the remainder and putting them on to reservations?
Rule makers? As in do what we want you to do, or we'll invade your country and kill you?
Don't see how the US is calling the shots in any country other than the ones they've invaded. Well, the people of quite a few countries have made the mistake of letting religion take over, which is sad. Although, I'm sure if the right wing Christians in the US could, they would too, so it would be no different than Iran then. You have to keep them cult freaks out of any political office, everywhere.
US justice, uh huh, like Guantanamo Bay, and having other countries like Egypt and Saudi Arabia torture people on their behalf.
They've also knowingly locked up innocent people in the US, and in some cases executed them. There's also the dirty tricks the CIA perform within their own borders, as well as abroad.
kidatheart: Built on better grounds? Like slaughtering the native population and then starving the remainder and putting them on to reservations?
Rule makers? As in do what we want you to do, or we'll invade your country and kill you? Don't see how the US is calling the shots in any country other than the ones they've invaded.
Well, the people of quite a few countries have made the mistake of letting religion take over, which is sad. Although, I'm sure if the right wing Christians in the US could, they would too, so it would be no different than Iran then. You have to keep them cult freaks out of any political office, everywhere.
US justice, uh huh, like Guantanamo Bay, and having other countries like Egypt and Saudi Arabia torture people on their behalf.
They've also knowingly locked up innocent people in the US, and in some cases executed them. There's also the dirty tricks the CIA perform within their own borders, as well as abroad.
Rule makers? As in do what we want you to do, or we'll invade your country and kill you? Don't see how the US is calling the shots in any country other than the ones they've invaded.
Well, the people of quite a few countries have made the mistake of letting religion take over, which is sad. Although, I'm sure if the right wing Christians in the US could, they would too, so it would be no different than Iran then. You have to keep them cult freaks out of any political office, everywhere.
US justice, uh huh, like Guantanamo Bay, and having other countries like Egypt and Saudi Arabia torture people on their behalf.
They've also knowingly locked up innocent people in the US, and in some cases executed them. There's also the dirty tricks the CIA perform within their own borders, as well as abroad.
Ummm...you're back then, Kid?
Good to see you.
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The savage is free to do whatever his own power can allow him to do, no codes of honour, ethics, body of organisation or fellow Human Being is going to tell him otherwise.