The narrative seems to have both sides and both side act like they have the support of the masses and I would like to know what you think
just like Jullian Assange.... these type of people get a mob behind them - they hide behind idealists who think they are supporting "freedom" and it is a great big lie.
But everyone has an opinion, everyone loves to champion a cause.
Facts - Snowden took an oath and a job to protect information and he shared it when it wasn't his to share and it wasn't his information. He needs to return to the USA and be accountable for his actions.
Jun 26, 2013 12:15 PM CST is Snowden a patriot or a Traitor
CmdrMercutioRickmansworth, UK, Hertfordshire, England UK2 Threads139 Posts
CmdrMercutioRickmansworth, UK, Hertfordshire, England UK139 posts
JeanKimberley: Facts - Snowden took an oath and a job to protect information and he shared it when it wasn't his to share and it wasn't his information. He needs to return to the USA and be accountable for his actions.
Mr.Benjamin Franklin gave an oath that he would "be faithful and bear true allegiance to his majesty King George II". Benjamin Franklin is and will always be a traitor for assisting the founding of the United States of America.
Or just maybe, sometimes a greater right is done by breaking an oath than honouring it. Few in Franklins time would have criticised him had he stated that he remained bound by his oath. Today we might have been less sympathetic.
CmdrMercutio: Mr.Benjamin Franklin gave an oath that he would "be faithful and bear true allegiance to his majesty King George II". Benjamin Franklin is and will always be a traitor for assisting the founding of the United States of America.
Or just maybe, sometimes a greater right is done by breaking an oath than honouring it. Few in Franklins time would have criticised him had he stated that he remained bound by his oath. Today we might have been less sympathetic.
good point. so what country is Snowden loyal to now.
john12196341: he should be given a medal for his exposer of the NSA attempt to spy on americans and the dictatorial leanings of this idoit in the white house
A medal for what? He exposed secrets to our enemies and had the arrogance to think he knows what we need to be exposed to - the NSA need to spy on more Americans - they have a mission to accomplish.
The NSA needs to held accountable for their subcontractor and the subcontractor hiring people like Snowden.
As to what this has to do with the White House having dictatorial leanings.....
well you are entitled to your opinion and wanting to champion a cause -
magiclove65: out of 7 whistle blower in Obama's era, 5 have died in accidents,and remain.
If you think there are only 7 whistleblowers in Obama's era.... give it a rest... there are more then 7 - and while you try quoting statistics - how about giving a side by side comparison of Bush era whistle blowers....
JeanKimberley: I have always wondered how most of the mountain, mid-west area of USA produces so many radicals who think that their nation is out to "get them" - I think it might be the isolation from how our federal government interacts with the state and local governments,...... or it just could be too much florine in the water.....
at least us midwesterns have more morals than u people have. we believe in our rights as free people. if people like u we would be living in a communist state and ur communist way of thinking with all due respect
He's not a patriot and he is a traitor.. technically. Although, I don't regard unblinking loyalty to the Liberal state as patriotism(most times the contrary), on this issue I agree with them. Security is not something to be lax over considering the context of the meltdown of civilisation.
And I don't appreciate the paranoid mewlings of the knownothing citizen that can't stand the idea of the government knowing what they do, just the thousands of people they continually beg for attention on facebook, myspace and twitter.
magiclove65: neither, he loves the truth and he is very courageous
Beautifully expressed ... such great eloquence in so few words!
No matter what efforts are put into its suppresion it's axiomatic (self evident) that 'truth will out'.
The REAL problem lies within the the hearts, minds and deeds of those who commit actions so foul that THEY consider it necessary to try and conceal the truth of their own foul deeds.
while it was courageous to reveal to the Public what the NSA was up to,it is quite traitorous to go to the Chinese,who have been cyber-attacking the US for years now,and telling them what Countermeasures the US is taking!
SorenS: dear "government" , i just want to get out of OUR country that you have stolen! Signed, Refugee!
North Korea will be more than happy to welcome you with open arms. I hear American defectors are well treated if they are willing to condemn their own government.
He broke his oath and he stole data. He is a thief. Did he reveal anything Agee and Stockwell hadn't already said, or the movie Eagle Eye didn't already speculate as to the possibility of? No. Just hang him as a thief and be done with it.
ooby_dooby: Actually the NSA DOES have the right to spy on Americans.
And I'm glad they do. That spying has saved us from several serious terrorist attacks.
Let them do their job. If you're not doing anything wrong, why would anyone care if they see you going to the grocery store or hear you talking to someone. In today's world, it's not a big deal.
Snowden is a traitor and should be accountable for his actions.
montemonte: And I'm glad they do. That spying has saved us from several serious terrorist attacks.
Let them do their job. If you're not doing anything wrong, why would anyone care if they see you going to the grocery store or hear you talking to someone. In today's world, it's not a big deal.
Snowden is a traitor and should be accountable for his actions.
The NSA doesn't have the right to spy on me or anyone outside the US but they were doinf this as were the UK intelligence agencies.
And it is nothing to do with if you're doing something illegal. It is about civil liberties. It is about them having files about individuals internet access, what sites they frequent, who they mail, what they say. Then all this info could easily be used against innocent people in the future! If you pluck certain bits of info or correspondence from peoples lives I am sure any can look guilty of anything.
Where is the line? They will have you bar-coded next and cameras in your home. But that will be OK cause you're not doing anything wrong. So why worry.?
sofarsogood74: The NSA doesn't have the right to spy on me or anyone outside the US but they were doinf this as were the UK intelligence agencies.
And it is nothing to do with if you're doing something illegal. It is about civil liberties. It is about them having files about individuals internet access, what sites they frequent, who they mail, what they say. Then all this info could easily be used against innocent people in the future! If you pluck certain bits of info or correspondence from peoples lives I am sure any can look guilty of anything.
Where is the line? They will have you bar-coded next and cameras in your home. But that will be OK cause you're not doing anything wrong. So why worry.?
well,meanwhile MI6 was tapping into the European Phones and Cable Networks,and swapping with NSA! And most likely so did the rest of the Intelligence(?)-Services in Europe!
Who you are is your name. If you are uncomfortable with the oath, don't make the oath. So simple.
There are many, many, many former Intelligence and Counter Intel people (probably in many countries too) who when they hit a situation in the course of their official functions that raises internal morality questions, they do the honorable thing. They resign from this or that program, or leave the service entirely, but they also keep to their oath and Secret meant, and will always mean Secret until someone else in a position of authority say it isn't Secret anymore.
Snowden, by his own words at press conferences, began being 'troubled' early in his association with the CIA. An Honorable person would have bowed out then. Snowden was/is not an Honorable person.
There is no one on this board who has not watched spy movies or read a spy novel. All of us understand that successful spying involves deception and sometimes not following the rules the other side thinks you should. Snowden watched those movies too. He intentionally sought a job with an agency that historically has been as deep into deception and skulduggery as can be imagined. Although I lived through the period of the House Assassination hearings, Snowden learned of them in school, so it was no surprise to him that we do that kind of thing sometimes, so he joined up. In Search of Enemies, Inside the Company and Decent Interval have been on book shelves for decades. Long enough so Snowden has both eyes open when he applies for his intelligence job.
Were there screwups in the decision to continue his clearance? Hell yeah. As soon as it was learned he was faking a college degree (you call this the mark of an honorable heroic person?) that didn't exist, that should have ended his career. Instead due to multiple screwups (the subject of multiple investigations and procedural overhauls all by themselves) some dumb person gave him access to things they shouldn't.
If I wanted to speculate I think Snowden knew his multiple falsehoods on his application were being uncovered and what he did to get fired at CIA was gonna be forwarded to the NSA. In the US if you lie on an EQIP (classified job application or SF84, 85, 86 et al) you are probably in for some legal expense as you try to avoid jail.
Snowden got a little panicky I think, knew he had to run and decided stealing documents might either give him a little insurance or bankroll the flight.
Like I wrote earlier, there is nothing new in the way of revelations that other similar thieves had not already talked about decades ago. Okay the computers are no longer driven by punch cards, so the technology is better and it is all more efficient. Everything he has released papers about was either (even if they pretend they didn't know) authorized by Congress and the Senate (much of it actually written into the Public Laws of the land) or approved by a Secret Treaty. Yes, some International Treaties are Secret and remain so for a very long time. Teddy R's 1904/1905 approval of the Japanese invasion of Korea is a good example.
At no time in past 40 years have you heard any Commander-in-Chief say while under an oath, we will now stop doing these things. You probably aren't going to either. That is the Universe you live in. You will never be King so there is nothing you can do about it. Even if you were the King, doing the same thing is essential to your survival.
Who you are is your name. If you are uncomfortable with the oath, don't make the oath. So simple.
There are many, many, many former Intelligence and Counter Intel people (probably in many countries too) who when they hit a situation in the course of their official functions that raises internal morality questions, they do the honorable thing. They resign from this or that program, or leave the service entirely, but they also keep to their oath and what Secret meant, and that will always mean Secret until someone else in a position of authority say it isn't Secret anymore.
Snowden, by his own words at press conferences, began being 'troubled' early in his association with the CIA. An Honorable person would have bowed out then. Snowden was/is not an Honorable person.
There is no one on this board who has not watched spy movies or read a spy novel. All of us understand that successful spying involves deception and sometimes not following the rules the other side thinks you should. Snowden watched those movies too. He intentionally sought a job with an agency that historically has been as deep into deception and skulduggery as can be imagined. Although I lived through the period of the House Assassination hearings, Snowden learned of them in school, so it was no surprise to him that we do that kind of thing sometimes, so he joined up. In Search of Enemies, Inside the Company and Decent Interval have been on book shelves for decades. Long enough so Snowden has both eyes open when he applies for his intelligence job.
Were there screwups in the decision to continue his clearance? Hell yeah. As soon as it was learned he was faking a college degree (you call this the mark of an honorable heroic person?) that didn't exist, that should have ended his career. Instead due to multiple screwups (the subject of multiple investigations and procedural overhauls all by themselves) some dumb person gave him access to things they shouldn't.
If I wanted to speculate I think Snowden knew his multiple falsehoods on his application were being uncovered and what he did to get fired at CIA was gonna be forwarded to the NSA. In the US if you lie on an EQIP (classified job application or SF84, 85, 86 et al) you are probably in for some legal expense as you try to avoid jail.
Snowden got a little panicky I think, knew he had to run and decided stealing documents might either give him a little insurance or bankroll the flight.
Like I wrote earlier, there is nothing new in the way of revelations that other similar thieves had not already talked about decades ago. Okay the computers are no longer driven by punch cards, so the technology is better and it is all more efficient. Everything he has released papers about was either (even if they pretend they didn't know) authorized by Congress and the Senate (much of it actually written into the Public Laws of the land) or approved by a Secret Treaty. Yes, some International Treaties are Secret and remain so for a very long time. Teddy R's 1904/1905 approval of the Japanese invasion of Korea is a good example.
At no time in past 40 years have you heard any Commander-in-Chief say while under an oath, we will now stop doing these things. You probably aren't going to either. That is the Universe you live in. You will never be King so there is nothing you can do about it. Even if you were the King, doing the same thing is essential to your survival.
Fear not. We are in consultation with some developers and will soon Eminent Domain your home so we can put up a parking lot for the new shopping mall. You do not need to know that not all the satellite dishes on the mall roof will be TV satellites and you certainly will have no need to know what kind of complex will be under the mall or behind the 'employees only' door in one of the big stores.
Fear not. We are in consultation with some developers and will soon Eminent Domain your home so we can put up a parking lot for the new shopping mall. You do not need to know that not all the satellite dishes on the mall roof will be TV satellites and you certainly will have no need to know what kind of complex will be under the mall or behind the 'employees only' door in one of the big stores.
SorenS: Wait... Hold on... apologies are due...wait for it...TO LIZARDS (& reptiles, in general)!!!!!
Nothing in the noble Animal World comes close to what certain devilish " humans",
with their vicious MoneySystem/ Mass Murder Machinery, are achieving!
EXTINCTION --- BRING IT ON, " new world order". (look it up)
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is Snowden a patriot or a Traitor(Vote Below)
The narrative seems to have both sides and both side act like they have the support of the masses and I would like to know what you think