is Snowden a patriot or a Traitor ( Archived) (183)

I've often argued that a suitably enlightened person needs no country to be loyal to. If patriotism conflicts with what is right, do whats right...

The Fascist from Miami is unusual & not representative!

VIVE SNOWDEN, ASSANGE, et al. Death to NSA scum!

It's a catch 22.

I don't think it should be shocking that the NSA spies on Americans.

However, he did the people of the U.S. a service by confirming it.

On the other hand, he swore to an allegiance that he would keep all dirty little secrets in the bag.

He let it out of the bag.

Therefore, he is a traitor.

O stupid moi! I should not use metaphorical or figurative expressions such as,

"death" to nsa SCUM, since these devils can use language to label citizens,

terrier-ists, & assassinate & indefinitely " detain" !

dear "government" , i just want to get out of OUR country that you have stolen!

Signed, Refugee!

The fbi are probably reading this thread right now lol dont say anything lol the public deserve to know if they are getting spied on :-)

North Korea will be more than happy to welcome you with open arms. I hear American defectors are well treated if they are willing to condemn their own government.

He broke his oath and he stole data. He is a thief. Did he reveal anything Agee and Stockwell hadn't already said, or the movie Eagle Eye didn't already speculate as to the possibility of? No. Just hang him as a thief and be done with it.

And I'm glad they do. That spying has saved us from several serious terrorist attacks.

Let them do their job. If you're not doing anything wrong, why would anyone care if they see you going to the grocery store or hear you talking to someone. In today's world, it's not a big deal.

Snowden is a traitor and should be accountable for his actions.

The NSA doesn't have the right to spy on me or anyone outside the US but they were doinf this as were the UK intelligence agencies.

And it is nothing to do with if you're doing something illegal. It is about civil liberties. It is about them having files about individuals internet access, what sites they frequent, who they mail, what they say. Then all this info could easily be used against innocent people in the future! If you pluck certain bits of info or correspondence from peoples lives I am sure any can look guilty of anything.

Where is the line? They will have you bar-coded next and cameras in your home. But that will be OK cause you're not doing anything wrong. So why worry.?

Who you are is your name. If you are uncomfortable with the oath, don't make the oath. So simple.

There are many, many, many former Intelligence and Counter Intel people (probably in many countries too) who when they hit a situation in the course of their official functions that raises internal morality questions, they do the honorable thing. They resign from this or that program, or leave the service entirely, but they also keep to their oath and Secret meant, and will always mean Secret until someone else in a position of authority say it isn't Secret anymore.

Snowden, by his own words at press conferences, began being 'troubled' early in his association with the CIA. An Honorable person would have bowed out then. Snowden was/is not an Honorable person.

There is no one on this board who has not watched spy movies or read a spy novel. All of us understand that successful spying involves deception and sometimes not following the rules the other side thinks you should. Snowden watched those movies too. He intentionally sought a job with an agency that historically has been as deep into deception and skulduggery as can be imagined. Although I lived through the period of the House Assassination hearings, Snowden learned of them in school, so it was no surprise to him that we do that kind of thing sometimes, so he joined up. In Search of Enemies, Inside the Company and Decent Interval have been on book shelves for decades. Long enough so Snowden has both eyes open when he applies for his intelligence job.

Were there screwups in the decision to continue his clearance? Hell yeah. As soon as it was learned he was faking a college degree (you call this the mark of an honorable heroic person?) that didn't exist, that should have ended his career. Instead due to multiple screwups (the subject of multiple investigations and procedural overhauls all by themselves) some dumb person gave him access to things they shouldn't.

If I wanted to speculate I think Snowden knew his multiple falsehoods on his application were being uncovered and what he did to get fired at CIA was gonna be forwarded to the NSA. In the US if you lie on an EQIP (classified job application or SF84, 85, 86 et al) you are probably in for some legal expense as you try to avoid jail.

Snowden got a little panicky I think, knew he had to run and decided stealing documents might either give him a little insurance or bankroll the flight.

Like I wrote earlier, there is nothing new in the way of revelations that other similar thieves had not already talked about decades ago. Okay the computers are no longer driven by punch cards, so the technology is better and it is all more efficient. Everything he has released papers about was either (even if they pretend they didn't know) authorized by Congress and the Senate (much of it actually written into the Public Laws of the land) or approved by a Secret Treaty. Yes, some International Treaties are Secret and remain so for a very long time. Teddy R's 1904/1905 approval of the Japanese invasion of Korea is a good example.

At no time in past 40 years have you heard any Commander-in-Chief say while under an oath, we will now stop doing these things. You probably aren't going to either. That is the Universe you live in. You will never be King so there is nothing you can do about it. Even if you were the King, doing the same thing is essential to your survival.

Who you are is your name. If you are uncomfortable with the oath, don't make the oath. So simple.

There are many, many, many former Intelligence and Counter Intel people (probably in many countries too) who when they hit a situation in the course of their official functions that raises internal morality questions, they do the honorable thing. They resign from this or that program, or leave the service entirely, but they also keep to their oath and what Secret meant, and that will always mean Secret until someone else in a position of authority say it isn't Secret anymore.

Snowden, by his own words at press conferences, began being 'troubled' early in his association with the CIA. An Honorable person would have bowed out then. Snowden was/is not an Honorable person.

There is no one on this board who has not watched spy movies or read a spy novel. All of us understand that successful spying involves deception and sometimes not following the rules the other side thinks you should. Snowden watched those movies too. He intentionally sought a job with an agency that historically has been as deep into deception and skulduggery as can be imagined. Although I lived through the period of the House Assassination hearings, Snowden learned of them in school, so it was no surprise to him that we do that kind of thing sometimes, so he joined up. In Search of Enemies, Inside the Company and Decent Interval have been on book shelves for decades. Long enough so Snowden has both eyes open when he applies for his intelligence job.

Were there screwups in the decision to continue his clearance? Hell yeah. As soon as it was learned he was faking a college degree (you call this the mark of an honorable heroic person?) that didn't exist, that should have ended his career. Instead due to multiple screwups (the subject of multiple investigations and procedural overhauls all by themselves) some dumb person gave him access to things they shouldn't.

If I wanted to speculate I think Snowden knew his multiple falsehoods on his application were being uncovered and what he did to get fired at CIA was gonna be forwarded to the NSA. In the US if you lie on an EQIP (classified job application or SF84, 85, 86 et al) you are probably in for some legal expense as you try to avoid jail.

Snowden got a little panicky I think, knew he had to run and decided stealing documents might either give him a little insurance or bankroll the flight.

Like I wrote earlier, there is nothing new in the way of revelations that other similar thieves had not already talked about decades ago. Okay the computers are no longer driven by punch cards, so the technology is better and it is all more efficient. Everything he has released papers about was either (even if they pretend they didn't know) authorized by Congress and the Senate (much of it actually written into the Public Laws of the land) or approved by a Secret Treaty. Yes, some International Treaties are Secret and remain so for a very long time. Teddy R's 1904/1905 approval of the Japanese invasion of Korea is a good example.

At no time in past 40 years have you heard any Commander-in-Chief say while under an oath, we will now stop doing these things. You probably aren't going to either. That is the Universe you live in. You will never be King so there is nothing you can do about it. Even if you were the King, doing the same thing is essential to your survival.

Wait... Hold on... apologies are due...wait for it...TO LIZARDS (& reptiles, in general)!!!!!

Nothing in the noble Animal World comes close to what certain devilish " humans",

with their vicious MoneySystem/ Mass Murder Machinery, are achieving!

EXTINCTION --- BRING IT ON, " new world order". (look it up)

LoL

Fear not. We are in consultation with some developers and will soon Eminent Domain your home so we can put up a parking lot for the new shopping mall. You do not need to know that not all the satellite dishes on the mall roof will be TV satellites and you certainly will have no need to know what kind of complex will be under the mall or behind the 'employees only' door in one of the big stores.