RE: ABORTION...Yes or No, and WHY?

Cwizzy, are you saying there should be no restrictions on abortion on ethical grounds?

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RE: Language

Languages, foreign, or otherwise, are taught in regular schools.

Here in Wales, some schools are Welsh medium and some are English medium, but Welsh and English are taught in both.

Once children get to secondary school at the age of 11 years, other European languages are also taught.

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RE: ABORTION...Yes or No, and WHY?

For as long as there are medical and legal parameters, it will never be exclusively the woman's choice. Some decisions will be made for her.

Within those parameters, whilst fathers may express an opinion, you will never be able to justify forcing a woman to have an abortion, or forcing her not to have one.

To force a woman not to have an abortion given back street options, you'd end up having to lock up, tie up and force feed some women.

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RE: ABORTION...Yes or No, and WHY?

An impassioned piece of writing, vierkaeserhoch, on this highly emotive subject.

I agree, experience of abortion often leaves it's emotional scars. With this in mind, and the certain knowledge that some thread participants will have personal experience, I feel a responsibility to avoid emotional pleas and sensationalism.

There were a couple of things in your post I'd like to respond to. The issue of 'irresponsible behaviour by mom during pregnancy' left me wondering if you were referring to substance misuse. I'm wondering if addiction is an irresponsible behaviour, or something else. I'm with Gabor Mate on this one, by the way, and think it's something else.

The other point was your description including the words 'ignorant', 'lazy' and something else judgemental with respect to 'highly effective and inexpensive contraception'. A contraceptive which is 99% effective sounds good, until you think that if 1,000 women use it, 10 are likely to get pregnant. Condoms aren't particularly cheap if you have a low income, which many young, fertile and sexuality active people do. Sometimes, they come with an altogether different price if people try to get them free from clinics, that is, an agreement to partake in other services which they might not feel comfortable with.

Like I said earlier, it's a complex subject. I'm not sure it can be reasonably discussed by blaming people with generalisations. Each pregnancy will have it's own story which is perhaps the greatest argument for women being involved in the decision making process.

Oh yes, one more, all rape is a violation and therefore perhaps describable as violent. I don't see degrees of rape and that some victims are allowed to be more upset than others, or more distressed at a resulting pregnancy than others. It's a very personal thing and people just have the emotions they do. They have the coping strategies they do, whether that's continuing with the pregnancy, or not.

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RE: ABORTION...Yes or No, and WHY?

The way I see it Serene, the sanctity of life, for want of a less religious phrase, is an argument with validity.

It's also an easy argument with a definite boundary at the point of conception.

It's also easy to walk away from the discussion at this point.

It's a lot more difficult to wrap your head around two opposing arguments which both have validity.

Some people can bypass contradictions, like referring to the Bible for the validity of the sanctity of life and the Irish law for the validity of life saving medical intervention for the mother. Because the law states this isn't considered abortion, it circumvents having to think about the tricksie little contradictions. Both were decreed by people in authority and invoking authority is often perceived as being imbued with authority.

It's a complex subject. It requires complex thought. It might even require practical effort and action, or taking personal responsibility for our beliefs. Generally, people don't want that. They want a fixed opinion which simplifies their own lives.

Maybe for many, even discussing opposing arguments raises issues of moral guilt, or culpability.

There are a lot of psychodynamic issues going on as well as philosophical interactions. I think that's understandable, given the subject matter.

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RE: ABORTION...Yes or No, and WHY?

You've qualified parameters for abortion there, epirb, but not for hunting.

I don't see the irony within my own parameters.

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RE: ABORTION...Yes or No, and WHY?

Wouldn't it be better to educate young men and boys that having sex might lead to consequences they will have to live with?

They may end up responsible for a child, or they may end up having to deal with loss.

To write into law that men can have sex without having to take responsibility for their actions because they can't force eligible women not to abort doesn't seem like a very clever, or well thought out solution to me.

It smacks of spite and reactionary power games.

It won't protect men from losing a wanted child through abortion.

It won't protect children from abandonment by their father's; quite the opposite, it will encourage it.

It won't reduce abortion rates if women feel their, and their children's abandonment is actively encouraged by law.

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RE: ABORTION...Yes or No, and WHY?

I'm sorry for your loss, Greg.

I've come across a few men in your position who grieve for the loss of an unborn child and I don't want to diminish, or bypass that in any way. It's a devastating experience and I count myself lucky that my daughter was determined to have my granddaughter, despite her circumstances.

I have no idea how I would have come to terms with her having an abortion. Whatever her decision, I would have had to support her, however; she's my daughter and that's in my job description. I don't think the same obligation applies to a partner.

There is a practical issue in terms of relatives having a say. We can't force women to have an abortion, or not to have one, and in that respect it is her decision alone.

I have come across cases where young women have been coerced into having an abortion by parents who threaten to withdraw support. Some go ahead, frightened by the threat of being thrown out on to the street. Some leave and continue with their pregnancy alone.

Whilst not being a religious person, I have respect for religious organisations opposed to abortion in living their beliefs. I've come across Catholic sanctuaries for pregnant women offering a roof and other support.

I'm really not sure how women who want an abortion could be ethically supported in having a child the father wants. Perhaps you have some thoughts on this.

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RE: Language

I only speak English.

My mother thought it would confuse my sister and I if we were brought up in a bilingual household. I understand her concerns, but regret her decision.

I wonder if her decision also ran deeper. I have a sneaky feeling she could at one time speak Yiddish, but survival depended on only speaking German.

I was never very good at learning languages at school and I wonder if some of her unspoken fears rubbed off on me subliminally as a child.

It may be that aural learning is simply not my strong point. I've tried to pick up a little Welsh, but my deafness makes that an arduous task. I've only really managed to pick up stuff I've seen written down. I'm great with road signs. laugh

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RE: What's on your mind ?

I read it as 'breasts', too.
Just sayin'.

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RE: 2018 .... is a man-bun primarily Euro today

Y'know, I think buns suit men much better than they suit women.

I'm not sure why I think that, but there's something related to gender in there somewhere.

I don't really care if they're mainly a European thing, or if men all over the world are sporting them, I think they look great.

Brightly coloured mohawk's always get a smile out of me too, whether men, or women wear them.

Maybe I just like to see people stepping out of the constraints of normalcy. dunno

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RE: Chores

Sewing machines are pretty simple and logical Pat, but if you've never used one, I'd recommend getting an old one.

The simplest type being an old cast iron one with a hand wheel. Grand if you just want to sew straight stitches. You can often get electric older models with more functions second hand, as well.

Modern ones are often all singing and dancing, but it's unlikely you'll want all the functions. They tend to be plastic, fragile and especially if they have electronic functions, somewhat expensive and throw away.

Any info you want, you know where to come, eh?

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RE: ABORTION...Yes or No, and WHY?

If the video has nothing to do with the choices some people have to make, Miwagi, then why did you post it on this thread?

I think, particularly from a couple posts above, women often feel unsupported by men and feel children are unsupported by men.

Perhaps posting graphic videos is a tad insensitive and unsupportive.

Many men take responsibility for their children, but many men do not. To leave women and children emotionally, practically and financially unsupported and then try and take the moral higher ground is somewhat unimpressive.

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RE: dopamine and serotonin

I heard a story the other day.

Some people introduced antidepressants in some area of Africa, I think it was. The local medics wanted to know what they were and what they were for.

After the explanation, they informed the visitors that they already had antidepressants.

Expecting some herbal remedy, this visitors followed the medics and we're introduced to a local farmer. The farmer had been working in the fields when a landmine exploded, amputating his leg. After treatment and having a prosthesis fitted, he went back to work. The trouble was, something to do with the wet conditions of the field caused him extreme pain where the prosthetic leg fitted to the remains of his limb; the field was also a reminder of his traumatic experience. The farmer became anxious and also cried the whole time he was in the field.

The medics bought him a cow. He became a dairy farmer, no longer suffered the physical pain and no longer cried all the time.

So, you see, said the medics, we already have antidepressants.

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RE: AGE GAP

Yeah, there was no discussion about cameras.

I'm not sure why, because it seems like a good idea on many levels - documenting accidents, feedback of tuition and learner performance, etc.

One issue might be that cameras would have to be able the view knee level, as well as everywhere else. Another might be that codes of conduct might need to be introduced before monitoring those codes of conduct. Or maybe the suggestion of cameras might muddy the water in terms of getting legislation through.

I wonder about the implications of the added expense on sole traders - many struggle with the cost of the adapted cars as it is. Then there'll be how you monitor that sole traders are recording and storing footage.

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RE: Is modern medicines, over populating the world?

Hmm, there's something about derogating people from poorer countries for not being productive enough, whilst they grow crops for richer countries to waste, that I can't quite put my finger on.

As for modern medicine, despite the various ethical issues of the industry, how many people would be willing to sacrifice their own for the benefit of all? It would be rather odd if people didn't fight for their loved ones' survival.

Perhaps a change of mindset and some reorganisation would help avoid an apocalypse. dunno

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RE: ABORTION...Yes or No, and WHY?

Oh yeah sorry Miwagi, I forgot about the swarms of feminazis hell bent on killing babies.

Best to leave the murder of the under 12's up to your president, because he feels like he's won something when he succeeds.

Y'know, I've been involved in a number of women's issues in my time and I've never once come across a woman who thought it was ethical, or should be a matter of choice to abort a child at 39 weeks and 6 days gestation.

In fact, things like China's one child law where women were forced into this kind of experience tended to raise an altogether different women's rights response.

Generally, the women's issues I came into contact with were about protecting their children, whether that was resisting pressure to abort, freedom from abuse, or protecting them from poverty.

For the most part, although I realise not always, we're like vixens with our cubs.

The trouble is, sometimes difficult decisions have to be made and women should be a part of that decision making process. It would be as bizarre to allow women with ectopic pregnancy to die as it would be to force a woman to abort, even if continuing the pregnancy were to put her life at risk. Women should be offered this choice, the decision is hers alone.

Pat mentioned counselling earlier. When my daughter visited a family planning clinic in the early stages of her first pregnancy, she was shocked and intimidated when the medic got out and started filling in abortion paperwork without even asking her opinion.

Abortion availability will always have parameters. Those parameters may change, for example, with the advancement in medical technology we currently have a cut off point in excess of the age of pre-term survival which raises ethical questions.

Within those parameters, if we are to reduce abortion rates, we need to look at how we disable women from having children. We need to look at enabling women to continue with their pregnancies.

What's your National Health Service like on your side of the pond? How about your welfare system? Employment laws and safe, affordable childcare? What systems do you have for dealing with domestic violence? Are the children you want to see born protected by your society as a whole?

How is your president tackling these issues? When you vote, how high are these issues on the priority list?

It's one thing to use emotive language to portray women as unethical, baby killing extremists, it's another thing to look at the myriad of social and ethical issues surrounding abortion. Your talents and privileges might be better used by taking more positive steps which are within your power.

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RE: AGE GAP

Yes, I'm sure some people do want a power imbalance. The question for me is whether that's ethical if one person is too young and inexperienced to understand how that might work.

I listened to a radio programme today about introducing the same teacher/pupil codes of conduct with respect to relationships, grooming and harassment as there are in schools and colleges.

Although it's legal to have a s*xual relationship with a sixteen year old, there are restrictions in schools and colleges based upon the unequal distribution of power.

Apparently, there's quite a big problem with older driving instructors being in an enclosed space with unsuspecting, and currently unprotected, teenage women.

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RE: ABORTION...Yes or No, and WHY?

Miwagi, I can't click on the links, but I can see from at least one of them, you thought I was challenging the existence of gender discrimination.

I was challenging the use of the term 'pro choice'.

Even an 5 year old given 50p in a sweet shop is subject to parameters. Having a choice is unlikely to include chewing gum and gobstoppers.

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RE: ABORTION...Yes or No, and WHY?

You make a fair point about awareness and the experience of pain, Mardinlap.

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RE: AGE GAP

Age isn't the issue.

Power imbalance is an issue in relationships.

Age can impact upon power balance.

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RE: Are you a Contreol Freak or do you know a Control Freak

Yes Molly, he was, and I imagine still is, Scottish.

He got it together with a very lovely Spanish woman who braved the Northern elements to be with him.

I mean, that's true love, eh?

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RE: ABORTION...Yes or No, and WHY?

No, Lupin. You're not having a referendum to introduce abortion for the first time ever.

You already have abortion rights. Seaworthy quoted the law earlier on in the thread relating to aborting ectopic pregnancies, and it's my understanding that abortion in Ireland is also legal if there is no longer a heart beat.

The referendum, surely, is about extending the parameters which include women in the decision making process?

There was a high profile case a couple of years back, I believe, where a non-Irish woman was put at risk, and consequently died. It was a much wanted child, but something went wrong. She begged medical staff to save her, but they refused because they could still detect a heart beat.

They both died.

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RE: ABORTION...Yes or No, and WHY?

Yes, 'pro life' in is loaded language and is used in a detrimentally manipulative way.

As is 'pro choice' when used in the utterly obtuse way which Miwagi used it above.

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RE: Are you a Contreol Freak or do you know a Control Freak

But naff spelling can be hilarious.

RMD (Ralph, if anyone remembers him) once pointed out to me that anti-natal had an entirely different meaning to the one I was trying to express...

laugh

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RE: ABORTION...Yes or No, and WHY?

What is acceptable, and what is not, is the question that we should be discussing.

The reality is that it would be utterly bizarre behaviour to enforce a yes, or no answer to this subject.

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RE: what food describes...

If your strawberries are bitter, they're either manky, or you haven't washed the insecticides off.

Strawberries should be sweet 'n' sour.

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RE: ABORTION...Yes or No, and WHY?

So, Seaworthy, you're saying it's murder to terminate a pregnancy because it's killing the child, but it's also murder to allow a mother to die in the case of an ectopic pregnancy.

You would choose to save the mother's life in such a case because the baby's chance of survival is slim to none.

Is that right?

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RE: ABORTION...Yes or No, and WHY?

Thankyou, Seaworthy.

So, the Bible says life begins at conception and a deliberate termination of that life is considered murder.

The law you quote says it's legal to terminate a life in the case of an ectopic pregnancy and it's not considered murder.

Which one of these contradictory statements do you think is true?

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RE: My fingers are too fat

Nah, it was me who suggested Lookin' use a pointy thing.

Molly called it a stylus.

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