Jury Service...

I agree Dedo, it is unnatural to express doubt, or otherwise in percentages.

It comes from an off the cuff experiment carried out by the British/American lawyer Clive Stafford Smith, the founder of the human rights organisation Reprieve. I saw the clip a long time ago, so I can't remember it exactly, but he presented a questionnaire to a number of people asking this question.

The people he asked were former jurors from a particular case, I think, and some other people involved including the judge.

Some responses were very low near the 50% mark and I think the judge put 95%.

The trial it followed was a murder trial in the US and I think our Clive had serious doubts about the guilt of the man condemned to death.

The judge saying 95% sort of equates to her being okay with 1 in 20 people executed being innocent.

Should we be using the term 'beyond reasonable doubt' if it's possible that it can be interpreted such that some doubt is reasonable?

RE: NEWS : Physicist Sir Stephen Hawking has Died

I can't help thinking that's a bit like Deep Thought breaking down irreparably half way through working out the answer to life, the universe and everything.

Jury Service...

I don't think the public wanted someone, anyone to go down for the bombing, Molly.

I can't say exactly, I was very young at the time and my perception has no doubt been altered by time, but I'm pretty sure that's not quite accurate.

My perception of that time is that there was a lot of fear. I lived in England and the IRA were bad, scary people who went round killing people in horrible ways for no apparent reason.

The English however, were reasonable, trustworthy people who were trying to stop the baddies.

No doubt my perception was influenced by my German mother who was likely more fearful than most and would have wanted it to all go away for slightly different reasons than most.

I don't think public opinion wanted someone, anyone. I think people wanted the horrible stuff to go away. I think the people trusted that the British legal system, the envy of the world, had got those responsible on trial. I think the people wanted those responsible.

I do think, however, the Guildford Four and Birmingham Six were found guilty, beyond reasonable doubt, of being Irish.

RE: When a man has muscles

Generally, Snooks.

One needs muscles to breath and eat and such like.

RE: What is your idea of heaven?

Homemade chargrilled globe artichokes in olive oil.

Apart from peeling the damn things, I consider myself fairly low maintenance.

Jury Service...

What was public opinion more than anything?

RE: When a man has muscles

If a man doesn't have any muscles he's dead, Snooks.

Jury Service...

At about the same time as Karanjit Alawalia went down for life there was a chap tried at Winchester Crown Court who got 6 months for murdering his partner. I remember my dad coming home for his lunch (he worked there) with a face like thunder over that one.

Karanjit was a victim of domestic violence. Asian women often have a difficult time escaping because of informative family networks and other cultural issues. Her husband kept finding her even when she was in secret refuge.

She splashed petrol on his feet in an attempt to burn them so he wouldn't be able to chase her. It didn't work as she planned and he went completely up in flames.

The chap who got 6 months? His partner put the ketchup in the wrong place on the dinner table. It was deemed an understandable reaction.

Incidentally, I think it was Judge Pickles who revoked the law on provocation and I think it was the day before the Guilford Four were released.

Who put the Guildford Four away?

I think it might have been Judge Pickles.

Maybe I've got that wrong.

Jury Service...

Yes, human instinct is expected from humans, Molly.

Perhaps it's not unreasonable to assume that evaluation of body language, for example, may provide an indication of whether a person on the stand is being truthful, or not.

On the other hand, psychology and law is a fairly hefty research field and the reality is, gut instinct also applies to judging people according to racial, gender and class stereotyping. It has put into question the efficacy of trial by (untrained) jury.

Even the law itself is subject to stereotyping. Do you remember the hoo har in the early 90's regarding the law on provocation? Men were viewed as having a tendency to snap under provocation (manslaughter), as women were viewed as being calculatiing (murder) and that was commonly reflected in sentencing at the time.

So how does that reflect upon our percentage of allowable doubt?

Jury Service...

Seaworthy, does that imply unreasonable doubt is acceptable?

Jury Service...

But does that actually happen in practise, doublefantasy?

If you look at the explorations and debate on this thread, would it be reasonable to doubt 12 jurors all having the same understanding of the concept?

How about all lawyers and judges?

Do any of them supplement evidence with 'gut instinct'?

Jury Service...

But does that actually happen in practise, doublefantasy?

If you look at the explorations and debate on this thread, would it be reasonable to doubt 12 jurors all having the same understanding of the concept?

How about all lawyers and judges?

Do any of them supplement evidence with gut 'instinct'?

Jury Service...

Sorry, the post re: Amanda Knox was for Galrads.

Jury Service...

Aha, now I get why they're executing people so slowly in the US these days, Harbal.

Jury Service...

I like what you've done there with rationalising the expression 'beyond reasonable doubt', Ro.

Unreasonable doubt would imply doubting for no justifiable reason.

Doubt is normal and taking it a step further, a necessary part of the evaluation of evidence.

Jury Service...

What if someone's DNA was at the scene of a crime, but they were there before the crime took place?

That was one of the issues with Amanda Knox's flatmate being murdered. Knox's DNA was everywhere and the Italian police were found not to have followed forensic procedure. The question became, was she involved, or was evidence due to contamination?

How sure would you have to be to convict?

Jury Service...

My question was based around the premises that 'you're 80% sure', not that there is 80% evidential proof, but now you're raised the concept of gut instinct Molly, I'd be interested if people explored that with respect to being beyond reasonable doubt.

You also outlined the concept of what percentage might indicate beyond reasonable life doubt.

You're making this thread interesting, Molly. Run with it, please. laugh

Jury Service...

No Lee, it's more personal than that.

I don't like you. laugh

Jury Service...

Yes, I know it's very similar to that thread.

It's also very different.

I've been trying to think of a way to explore this question for some time. I was all set to respond to Frisky's thread with it and it occurred to me it might derail it unfairly.

It then occurred to me, running them concurrently might lead to some interesting contrasts and comparisons.

Jury Service...

What would your gut feeling be based upon, Molly?

Jury Service...

If you were 80% positive that someone had committed a murder and only 20% not sure that he did, would you send him to prison based on that percentage?

What percentage would you need to be satisfied that someone was guilty beyond reasonable doubt?

RE: Getting a message from one someone who deletes their account

Sometimes people hide their profiles when they're offline to avoid coming back to streams of scam mail.

Sometimes scammers (or otherwise naughty people) hide their profiles to avoid getting reported, or banned while their offline.

Or to stop their partners finding their profile.

It could be perfectly innocent, or not. Best not to fret about it.

RE: Organ donation

I'm aware Heavensmile is perfectly capable of speaking for herself, Mercedes. I have much respect for her contributions on this forum.

I just found your post unnecessary and commented as such.

RE: Organ donation

I didn't find it at all difficult to understand, but either way, Heavensmile is entitled as an adult to make her own decision about organ donation without judgement.

RE: Organ donation

Heavensmile is an adult, Mercedes.

She's made an adult decision to consider her mother's needs and wishes.

RE: Organ donation

It is standard practise here in the UK. You have to opt out, rather than make arrangements to donate.

I think it might still be standard practice to consult with next of kin, however. I don't think they whip your vitals out on the sly.

My dad received a cadaver kidney transplant over 7 years ago. Kidney failure was killing him and caring for his high needs was killing my mum.

She was too old and too small to carry on with things the way they were and my dad was having life saving surgery every couple of months. He was quite literally falling apart and at one point had mesh implanted to hold his insides together.

So far, that's about 15 years of life free from surgery and suffering from one kidney.

Each of us could potentially provide that 8 times over. That's like 120 years of life, or quality of life from the bits we don't need anymore.

RE: Help the Aged.

The charitable organisation Help the Aged is now called Age Concern.

I've just worked out the reason for the name change.

RE: USA vs UK

The way we adopted the metric system...?

You mean, whilst reassuring Imperial that we still love and value it and Metric is an addition to our happy family, not in any way a replacement?

RE: I like to go the extra mile

When one door closes, another one opens.

Also not good if you're a taxi driver.

RE: It's National Nap Day!

It's notable that you didn't title you thread International Nap Day.

There are cats on this side of the pond too, y'know.

This is a list of forum posts created by jac_the_gripper.

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