RE: TURPIN FAMILY....This thread wont be here for long ........ I hope it is ......

To add to Molly's excellent post, at the point the judicial system is part of the solution, children have already been abused.

It may be a part of tackling the issue, but in isolation it's too late.

I once heard of a hospital department, I think it was cardiac, who on congratulating themselves on reaching a target 80% success rate were interupted by a colleague. Whilst agreeing they should be pleased, he pointed out one particular patient they had failed unnecessarily.

The team changed their game plan. They decided they were going to go for 100% success rate, never mind whether that was realistic, or not.

Through much dedication, idea generating and hard work, they bumped their score up into the high 90's.

We need to aim for 100%, never mind whether that is realistic, or not. We cannot afford complacency.

Changing the judicial system alone is by default already an admission that we will fail many, many children.

It also depends on the concept that the potential for future penalties acts as a deterrent. That doesn't appear to apply for things like smoking - we know it might kill us, but many do it anyway: we like to think that sort of thing happens to others, not us.

There's no evidence to suggest that the death penalty acts as a deterrent. It's possible that state sanctioned murder might even create an atmosphere of murder being somewhat justifiable.

I have often wondered if harsher sentencing might lead to more children being permanently silenced.

I agree the judicial system needs to play a part. I've seen the negative impact of an imminent release of a perpetrator after a few years on a victim. Likewise, I've seen the positive impact of the death (natural causes) of a perpetrator has had on a victim.

I think child abusers should only be released when they are no longer a threat. I think they should jump through many hoops to prove that, but the possibility of release and the opportunity to gain it should be provided. I think that for a number of reasons, but I'm not sure of the flaws in my opinion, either.

Part of the above should be the kind of therapy which can also be used for research purposes.

I get your concerns about lack of therapy for victims but I don't see it has to be an either/or situation.

To add to this, we already know that many abusers were once victims. If they had had support at the victim stage, might that have halted the pathway to becoming an abuser themselves?

What is the difference between a victim who becomes an abuser and a victim who would never want to see anyone suffer as they had? Like Molly said, what are the triggers for each pathway?

I'd rather see funding withdrawn from other areas, like the 5 million per year, I think it is, we're currently giving to the Saudi's, not to mention the police force training, to prop up a regime which is executing protesters for democracy, including children, on the basis of confessions obtained by torture.

I'd like to see funding and military support withdrawn from the US whose drone assassination programme has killed thousands of civilians including some 250 children based on a flawed computer algorithm.

I'd like to see that we never again partake in rendition programmes where citizens, including children, and are deported to countries where we know they are going to be tortured.

The UK is pumping money into supporting abuse which could be channeled into preventing it.

RE: Hypothetical situation

Been there, done that, stayed in this life to look after my daughter.

I don't think my daughter and granddaughter are ready for me to go adventuring yet.

RE: TURPIN FAMILY....This thread wont be here for long ........ I hope it is ......

Yeah, I'm a believer in finding out what went on in the parent's minds along with other intense and detailed investigations to establish how this holocaust came about.

Shooting the parents is 13 abused children too late.

One abused child is one too many.

As a society, we need to establish preventive measures and that includes studying the mentality of the perpetrators.

Shutting the stable doors after the horse has bolted is counselling for the onlookers whilst ignoring victims' needs and future child protection.

It didn't happen to us. It's not going to happen to us.

It happened to the thirteen children, it's happening to others as we speak and it's going to happen to others yet to be born.

Maybe one day those kids (for at least the 17 year old who planned the escape for two years is not too cognitively damaged by the starvation conditions) may want to face their parents in a prison visiting room and ask, "Why?"

You have no right to take that potential away from them to gain your own closure as a mere onlooker.

RE: Victim Blaming

Okay, thanks for replying DeeDee. hug

RE: Victim Blaming

So what action would you propose for preventing child sex abuse, DeeDee?

RE: Victim Blaming

Understanding the dynamic is not the same as excusing the behaviour.

Somebody once said to me, when you get to the stage when you'd gladly throw your insomniac, ADHD, colicky baby out of the window, it's okay to make her safe and walk away until you calm down. She understood the dynamic of my situation.

Would the death penalty after the event have been a better solution?

RE: Victim Blaming

I hear what you're saying DeeDee, but I personally can't justify prioritising adults emotional needs over and above children being abused.

It's not like all adults are going to have to listen to perpetrators. We just need to take a minimal responsibility in allowing the process to happen by those who chose to.

The constant public calls for revenge, rather than supporting research need to stop. Public opinion affects funding.

I cannot condone adult needs overshadowing the fact that child abuse continues. For way too long children have been ignored by adults who are unable, or unwilling to deal with child abuse.

Society is enabling child abuse. Children are carrying the can today, this minute as we type and read.

That's indefensible.

RE: Victim Blaming

I want to modify my analogy.

It's more like popping the blisters and running away because victimisation of perpetrators facilitates the life cycle of the disease.

RE: Victim Blaming

Yeah, I've had some fairly heavy duty abuse on these forums myself because I'm an advocate of looking from a different angle.

People want to distance themselves from child abuse and they do that by venting their emotions, regardless of the consequences.

The way I look at it is this: you can't eradicate smallpox by covering up the symptoms with calamine lotion and running away. Distancing yourself from the disease of child abuse by covering it with the lotion of outrage will not eradicate it.

If you want to eradicated smallpox, you study the virus in minute detail and you invent a vaccine.

That's why we need to listen to perpetrators. We need to study it in minute detail and come up with the societal equivalent of a vaccine.

We have a duty to allow the people who can handle doing that to do it.

These abusive communications and threats you friend received are about as intelligent as threatening to burn down a lab working on a vaccine for smallpox.

RE: Victim Blaming

I think in some parts of the US rape is the only other crime besides first degree murder that is punishable by the death sentence.

We appear to get mixed messages on a global level about the severity of rape as a crime and who is responsible.

We're walking a path from the subjugation of women...err...to something different. It's all a bit muddled though, isn't it?

On the one hand we have messages declaring unequivocally that rape is unacceptable. On the other hand we haven't eradicated the victim blaming, or disparities in sentencing.

I was once told in a lecture on the subject of Psychology and Law, of a once, and possible still, prevailing attitude about rape and race: the highest sentences for rape were given to black men raping white women; in second place were white men raping white women; a white man raping a black woman was considered bad taste.

It's perhaps significant that I can't quite recall exactly how a black man raping a black woman was described, other than I think it was the third lowest average sentencing, but it could have been that these cases didn't reach court either.

Another issue is the abuse and rape of men by women. Social attitudes are pretty slow to catch on there, too. We seem to still be at the stage where we either deny it's physically possible, or we expect men to have enjoyed it so it's not really rape.

Unless we get to the nitty gritty of what the consequences are for victims, we're not going to get any clarity with regards to acceptable behaviour, or justice for unacceptable behaviour. For that to happen, we have to take responsibility for listening to victims.

We also need to take responsibility for listening to perpetrators if we want to create change.

It's likely most people don't want to do either.

RE: Victim Blaming

I'd like to comment on the phrase 'victim mentality' which I've heard numerous times on these forums.

It's a peach.

It seems that not only do victims get blamed for the harm done to them, they get blamed for the consequent impact on their psychology.

It seems like we don't want to hear of victims, but only survivors. I can't help, but wonder if the element of surviving which people want to hear is 'it doesn't matter, look how it hasn't had an impact on me'. Isn't that in itself seeking out a certain abdication of responsibility for the perpetrator?

Are we unable, or unwilling to take some personal responsibility ourselves in providing a safe space where people can work through the emotional consequences of victimisation?

RE: Victim Blaming

Or maybe because rape is one of the most bleedin' obvious where the victim is not to blame, and yet society still facilitates the perpetrator to abdicate responsibility.

Child abuse would be another example, but that's still so taboo the only way it's socially acceptable to talk about it is by wishing, or threatening all manner of torturous harms on the perpetrator.

RE: Principle of the least concerned

Hmm, that happens in all sorts of relationships, not just lovers, eh?

Like sharing a house and being the tidy one - the housemate who's least concerned about rank dishes left in the sink, or urine all over the floor, holds more power than the person who doesn't want to sit on a pee soaked toilet seat, or wants to be able to cook supper without risking a dose of e.coli.

There's perhaps an element of lack of respect for others as a consequence of a lesser emotional investment.

Likewise, it happens in the workplace where those most keen to provide a service end up doing the lazy person's share of the work. It's even more galling when the lazy person takes the credit for the work, or maybe the achievements.

I've come across someone who appeared to have some pathological issue which prevented them from fully empathising with others. That was difficult to deal with: this person showed signs of confusion trying to negotiate social expectations, was a fairly horrible person and I was ambivalent about how much personal responsibility I could reasonably expect from them.

I've also come across people with deep rooted emotional issues which they're not ready (and may never be) to explore. A lack of self-awareness usually leads to a lack of other-awareness.

And then there's the issue of choice: If someone chooses not to engage in what it takes to achieve balance, you can't force them. We can in many ways choose to invest empathy, respect and love into our relationships, but maybe we need to be able to see the advantage in doing that, before we do.

Very often, people who hold power over someone else can't seem to see how much more powerful synergy can be. They appear to be afraid of losing something, rather than enthusiastic about gaining something.

Maybe that's the key - getting someone to see the advantages of a balanced relationship for themselves as well as for yourself. dunno

American Accents...

Thankyou, Karl.

The city I grew up in was tiny and worked on the Australian model as it was described to me - three accents - the broad (local) accent, the milder version and Received Pronunciation.

Thinking about the capital city of Wales, UK Cardiff, where I have also lived, it occurred to me it's much the same, except for the many immigrant populations.

It then occurred to me that I've heard a fourth Australian accent through the media - the indigenous aboriginal version of Australian English.

Specifically, the film Rabbit Proof Fence comes to mind, the story of three sisters who successfully escaped an orphanage back to their mother during the period of, what would you call it? Ethnic cleansing?

I'm finding it rather profound that the description of accents in Australia related to me maybe 30 years ago ignored the indigenous population and it's taken me this long to fill in the dots.

American Accents...

Hello Mimi. wave

Stalk KB until she gives in and treats you to a vocaroo sample of her voice. You'll love her. laugh

American Accents...

KB! shock

What a thoroughly British attempt to dissemble your embarrassment!

Well done, old bean. grin

American Accents...

Thanks for the links, Track and Kattte.

As I can't access them, I can't come up with a better response than this. moping

RE: Jealousy in a relationship is caused by lack of trust !

@Lookin2share...

It sounds like melodrama to me. laugh

Just because someone doesn't put the back of their hand to their anguished brow, doesn't mean they don't have feelings.

Jealousy can be a horrible destructive emotion, the acting out thereof utterly useless. You can't control other people, but you can work with your own psyche.

If someone betrays your trust, you grieve, you heal, you move on. Jealousy isn't going to stop them, nor will it make the betrayal go away.

RE: Jealousy in a relationship is caused by lack of trust !

Lack of jealousy in relationships might be to do with attachment and bonding issues.

It might be to do with an understanding that you can't control others.

It might be to do with an inner strength that you can cope with life's hurts and disappointments.

I imagine there might be all sorts of reasons for a lack of jealousy, but being a freak, or a pervert are not things that will have sprung to my mind. laugh

American Accents...

I don't know what you're talking about, Life's a Dream. giggle

American Accents...

I'm astounded, DeeDee!

I'm pretty sure I can hear the Royals dashed clearly, although it is a very long time since I've had a television, so maybe the need to lipread wasn't so great back then. dunno

I think perhaps their general stillness and lack of effusiveness is more to do with the etiquette of being dignitaries, than security. I'd imagine they're more likely primed not to speak about sensitive information where they might be overlooked, than speak like ventriloquists so they can discuss national secrets in mixed company. laugh

The Queen does, however, have a German accent. It's subtle, but most definitely there all the same. Most people don't realise this.

My mum was unaware until I pointed it out. She was under the impression she was knowing ze qveen's English better than the English. Out of the mouths of mums...

American Accents...

The voices from the other side of the pond which immediately sprung to mind in conversation with my colleague were Ocee, 2Intrigued, Stringman and of course yours, KB.

Lilting away in my head, it is exactly as you describe. Spot on. laugh

American Accents...

I've been known to listen to one of Radio One's programmes dedicated to a black music genre I can't recall.

I didn't like the tunes, could barely understand a word said, but the lilting patois was music to my ears. laugh

American Accents...

Test her on house numbers, Molly. laugh

Hello DeeDee. wave

Like yourself, I'm a fairly good mimick, or when in more serious conversation a verbal accommodater - the term academics use to describe speaking to someone in their own accent.

It's supposed to be a social skill, putting others at ease with acceptance and accommodation, or presumably, integrating yourself.

It's the only source of anguish I have with my increasing deafness. I'm finding it progressively more difficult to hear and mimick accents.

American Accents...

Can you tell which Street someone comes from, Molly? giggle

There's a running joke in these parts that if you come from the next village you're a foreigner, but the accents don't vary quite that widely.

They probably do from county to county, the same as in Ireland, though.

In England, many cities have unique accents, but some English cities are probably more populous than Welsh counties.

There are some American cities more populous than the entire country of Wales, I believe. I wonder how accents vary there.

I've heard Australia only has three accents. I can't understand how that's possible. laugh

American Accents...

Welcome to the forums, skinthemule. wave

I'm chuffed to have enticed a newbie. I don't create threads very often and even less often are they ones which posters are interested in replying to. laugh

That's an interesting comment you've made about migration. You've expanded my knowledge, thankyou.

American Accents...

I'm one of those Welshies who speaks with an English accent, sometimes accused of being from the North of England, sometimes from London and sometimes simply 'posh', well spoken, or 'speaking tidy' associated with Southern English Received Pronunciation.

Unless I'm in England where old friends ask me where I got my Welsh accent. laugh

Like every country, there are many accents. Along the Welsh/English boarder English in Wales is influenced by the saesnegs over the border. In parts of Gwent the accent sounds like a cross between Welsh Valleys and West Country and a North Walian friend has a definite Liverpudlian lilt to her English, despite being a native Welsh speaker.

American Accents...

Note my comment about my gymnastic eyebrows in my op, Molly - I don't find the Southern States accent aggressive, either. Unless spoken with aggression, of course.

The entrancing voice of Martin Luther King comes to mind.

Interestingly, I find the Czech student difficult to hear, not only because he's so quietly spoken, but because he hardly moves his mouth at all for me to lipread. Any speech by comparison is going to come across as forced and forceful, simply by virtue of utilising the occasional calorie. laugh

American Accents...

A Welsh student speaks and moves incredibly slowly like the sloth character in the animation Zootropolis. (I've seen way too many kids films through no fault, or design of my own.)

I thought maybe she was on some kind of medication until recently I overheard someone else speaking in the same manner. blushing laugh

I think it might be a North Walian accent, English largely being a second language. The Welsh (Cwmraeg) spoken in the North is somewhat different from that in the South, where Cwmraeg is largely the second language.

This is a list of forum posts created by jac_the_gripper.

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