Now we're playing fair and have the same parameters for assessing covid disease and covid vaccines, let's look at the statement:
Ths is a true statement.
We know it's a true statement because some people have had thrombosis (blood clots) with thrombocytopenia syndrome, TTS (low platelets) following vaccination and some of those people have died.
I don't have exact figures, but I read somewhere that 49 people have died. I don't recall if that was worldwide, or a particular country, but we're counting deaths in the order of 10's from 4.62 billion doses of vaccine administered.
This is true statement.
We know it's a true statement because some people have died after becoming infected with covid.
There have been some 206 million confirmed cases of covid infection and 4.34 million people have died.
This is a false statement.
We know it's a false statement because fewer people have had covid infection (206 million) than a covid vaccine (4.62 billion) and more people have died from the infecton (4.34 million) than have died as a result of vaccination (49+).
On the face it, this is a completely bonkers mindset because covid kills more people than the vaccine by far. So what are the differences between covid and the vaccine which result in this kind of seemingly irrational statement?
This is a true statement, but what is the chance of not getting covid?
I had covid symptoms in April 2020 when we were in lockdown in the UK. Masks weren't available, but I only went out grocery shopping once a week and otherwise stayed in my flat on my own. I went shopping late to avoid people, I walked virtually empty streets, I socially distanced and washed my hands. I must have picked it up in a virtually empty minimarket from someone, from a grocery packet I brought home, or once someone was out jogging and I didn't hear them coming up too close behind me.
In August 2020 I had another viral infection involving a cough and fever, but similar circumstances again except masks were available. Either I'm one of the unluckiest people ever, or there's a fairly high chance of picking up infection.
I can only conclude that there is some very interesting psycholgy which revolves around consciously taking action and having the vaccine.
But some people die because they refuse the vaccine, so refusal is also an action.
I get this. It's how I felt about the MMR vaccines when my daughter was small. I didn't have the internet back then to do my own research and I couldn't find a doctor who would talk to me openly, clearly and comprehensively. The lack of open and honest communcation fueled my distrust and I felt like there must be something dodgy going on as a result.
People have died of covid disease and following covid vaccines, with, or without underlying health conditions. Agreed?
It does matter when parents, children, siblings, spouses, partners, friends, workers, etc. die. It matters to their loved ones and dependents. Agreed?
Even if someone has no family, friends, job, no nothing, it still matters because they are a human being. I'm not bothered if you agree with that, or not. I just wanted to qualify the statement above.
If the above is true then let's look at death without distinguishing between those who were healthy before they became unhealthy and those who were unhealthy and then became more unhealthy.
That means just over 2% of people worldwide who had covid disease died within 28 days of a positive test according to the officially recorded confirmed cases and deaths.
Some people have also died following the vaccine. I can't find exact numbers, but it's a teeny weeny, noughts after the decimal point percentage of the 4.26 billion doses administered worldwide. It doesn't matter how small the percentage is, however. Those people still matter.
Can we agree to look at death based upon the above, even playing field, Mikey? It will include looking at vaccine safety which your parameters don't.
Okay, you want to play fair, Mikey? The percentage figure is correct unless there are other health problems, That's a given with anything tho..I'll answer my own questions: Of course they are dead. Of course they matter. If you only want to count those who died of covid with no underlying health conditions and claim a disease survival rate of 99.8%, then it's only fair to apply the same conditions with respect to vaccines.
I've googled my little heart out regarding vaccine related deaths. Some of the information is currently being processed and therefore has not been released. Autopsies, investigations, research, data collection, data collation, reports and scientific papers take a little time.
What we can say is that a report of death within a certain time frame of vaccination doesn't necessarily mean the vaccine was the cause. If I walk out of the vaccine centre and get run over by a bus, it wasn't the vaccine that killed me, right?
So, let's look at adverse reactions and deaths which appear to have some link with vaccination:
Anaphylaxis: a severe, life threatening allergic reaction to the vaccine. I can't find any data to suggest anyone has died, but a few people have ended up intubated and intensive care. A prior history of anaphylaxis, or allergies appears to be relevant.
Thrombosis: blood clots post-vaccine have occurred in people with low platelet counts. It's called thrombosis with thrombocytopenia syndrome, TTS and it has lead to some deaths.
Inflammation of the heart: Myocarditis (inflammation of the heart) and pericarditis (inflammation of the outer lining of the heart) has occurred post vaccine, at least many of the cases in otherwise healthy people. I can't find any confirmed deaths, but of the 309 hospitalisations reported up to 29th June 2021 of myocarditis following vaccination, 214 have recovered and 2 were in ICU.
The only deaths which I can find that are associated with the vaccine have occurred in people with an underlying health condition, i.e. TTS.
If you're only going to count people with no underlying health conditions and claim a 99.8% survival rate for covid disease, then you have to play fair and only count people with no underlying health conditions in the survival rate for vaccination.
As far as I can see, according to your parameters Mikey, not one person has died from the vaccine. It's 100% safe by your own logic.
My daughter makes excellent cakes, mostly amazing, outlandishly artistic birthday cakes for my four grandchildren and other people's kids.
I think it's art therapy for her because she bakes for people in the village for the price of the flour. I have had excited phone calls from her offering me gluten free, vegan cakes and god love her, I think she has been genuinely hurt when I say no thankyou.
I already felt like a heel for not liking cake, but now I've snubbed Merc, too.
Conrad, vaccinations and umbrellas are different from each other.
I didn't get vaccinated to protect myself. At the time I had the jab I was likely immune from having had the disease anyway.
I had the jab to protect the people around me and to ensure I was contributing to herd immunity, a collective, co-operative movement to protect everyone on the planet.
You see that's the difference between you and me: I don't just think of myself and what I want.
Now, if you don't mind, I was having an interesting conversation with Mikey.
The thing is, vaccinations aren't just about what's in your best interests.
Your choices will affect other people.
I read somewhere recently, I can't remember where, or more details, that a superspreader event involving a gathering of 75 people was estimated to have resulted in 300,000 infections.
Presumably, not all of those 75 people brought infection to that event. It might have just been one person who infected many of the 75 at the event who then went on to infect others, and so on.
If you use data from confirmed cases and deaths worldwide it works out as roughly 2% of infected people dying. Two percent of 300,000 is 6,000 deaths originating from maybe one infected person.
Each of us has a responsibilty to protect others. If the adult population is vaccinated we can reach herd immunity and leave the children to grow up and make their own choices in their own time - children should have the right to freedom of choice, too.
If adults choose to opt out of a society wide vaccination programme then they need to take responsibility for that personal choice. How are you going to ensure that you don't get infected, and more importantly, that you don't start a chain of events that could lead to thousands dying, or children being vaccinated and losing their right to freedom of choice to protect you?
The only way I can see those who refuse the vaccine (opting out of the society wide vaccination programme) to take responsibilty for their personal choice, is for them to opt out of society.
Maybe not at the moment, but say if the states became independent countries, then they'd likely have to negotiate and co-operate with each other in order to prosper.
What appears to be disasterous now might get worse, but also might come out of the other side better for it in some way.
jac_the_gripper Forum Posts (5,363)
RE: I'm Thinking #2
Now we're playing fair and have the same parameters for assessing covid disease and covid vaccines, let's look at the statement:Ths is a true statement.
We know it's a true statement because some people have had thrombosis (blood clots) with thrombocytopenia syndrome, TTS (low platelets) following vaccination and some of those people have died.
I don't have exact figures, but I read somewhere that 49 people have died. I don't recall if that was worldwide, or a particular country, but we're counting deaths in the order of 10's from 4.62 billion doses of vaccine administered.
This is true statement.
We know it's a true statement because some people have died after becoming infected with covid.
There have been some 206 million confirmed cases of covid infection and 4.34 million people have died.
This is a false statement.
We know it's a false statement because fewer people have had covid infection (206 million) than a covid vaccine (4.62 billion) and more people have died from the infecton (4.34 million) than have died as a result of vaccination (49+).
On the face it, this is a completely bonkers mindset because covid kills more people than the vaccine by far. So what are the differences between covid and the vaccine which result in this kind of seemingly irrational statement?
This is a true statement, but what is the chance of not getting covid?
I had covid symptoms in April 2020 when we were in lockdown in the UK. Masks weren't available, but I only went out grocery shopping once a week and otherwise stayed in my flat on my own. I went shopping late to avoid people, I walked virtually empty streets, I socially distanced and washed my hands. I must have picked it up in a virtually empty minimarket from someone, from a grocery packet I brought home, or once someone was out jogging and I didn't hear them coming up too close behind me.
In August 2020 I had another viral infection involving a cough and fever, but similar circumstances again except masks were available. Either I'm one of the unluckiest people ever, or there's a fairly high chance of picking up infection.
I can only conclude that there is some very interesting psycholgy which revolves around consciously taking action and having the vaccine.
But some people die because they refuse the vaccine, so refusal is also an action.
I get this. It's how I felt about the MMR vaccines when my daughter was small. I didn't have the internet back then to do my own research and I couldn't find a doctor who would talk to me openly, clearly and comprehensively. The lack of open and honest communcation fueled my distrust and I felt like there must be something dodgy going on as a result.
I used to be a bit of an anti-vaxxer.