Ambrose2007 Forum Posts (8,881)

When Do Attempts At Persuasion Become Controlling and Manipulative?

I think this thread was a highly interesting and often intelligent exploration of a controversial and important issue. Then someone entered the thread with a personal attack that was completely unwarranted.

I have the right to discuss issues that are interesting to me, and will continue to do so.

In the past, I did have an interest in convincing GG to reconsider her position. No longer. Repeat: I no longer have any interest in persuading GG of anything. She's in the past - I'm moving into the future, and am excited about the prospects it offers.

From now on please be assured that whatever threads I post are only because I wish to discuss certain ideas or issues. I'm a philosophical kind of guy who also enjoys discussing psychology. That's it from this point forth.

Remember the Carly Simon song: "You're so vain, you probably think this song is about you, don't you, don't you?"

When Do Attempts At Persuasion Become Controlling and Manipulative?

And we'll just forget the fact that you maliciously and falsely accused me of something - proven by her own words?

When Do Attempts At Persuasion Become Controlling and Manipulative?

I agree, H. And please note that it wasn't I who introduced personal attacks or information into this thread.

The truth is that the subject of this thread was not aimed at defending myself or attacking anyone. There's nothing remotely attacking or personal in any of my posts on this thread. The purpose for me was twofold: 1) to better understand the subject; 2) self-exploration - to examine the possibility that I've indulged in these kinds of behavior.

This time I'm guiltless. I wish I could say it feels good.

When Do Attempts At Persuasion Become Controlling and Manipulative?

Nor do you deserve any apology from me after your false criminal allegations and attack pieces here on CS.

Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

When Do Attempts At Persuasion Become Controlling and Manipulative?

(Summarizing and quoting Patrica Evans again, author of Controlling People: How to Recognize, Understand, and Deal with People Who Try to Control You

According to Evans, the controlling individual's partner is to some degree a pretend person – a construct designed to make the controller feel secure. The controller attaches, in effect, to a chimera of his partner. Unfortunately, the real person – what Evans calls the "authentic person" – will deviate frequently from the controller's fantasy person. The controller must then attempt to compel the authentic person to act more like the chimera.

The more the real person deviates from the fantasy person, the more anxious and threatened the controller feels. The more anxious, the more controlling the her or she becomes..

"If the Witness [authentic person] acts in an unanticipated, unscripted, spontaneous way, the Witness is a Spellbreaker. At any moment a Witness may say or do something that threatens to dislodge the Controller – break the connection. The Controller is then unanchored, disconnected from the Witness, alone."

Essentially, the Controller lives in a constant state of fear: at any moment the illusion may be broken (Evans calls this "spellbreaking"). To the degree that the person deviates from their fantasy doppelganger, the controller must take action to re-align the two.

For me, it follows from the fact that controllers can perceive deviations from the chimera that they must be able, on some level, to recognize the actual person. How does the controller handle the cognitive dissonance of perceiving a real person who is different from the illusory one?

Evans doesn't delve into that, but I believe the answer is that we "rationalize" the real person's behavior as not being authentic, and therefore is in need of correction.

And now we enter a rather tricky area, because it is arguably often the case that we are not exactly true to ourselves. It is not necessarily a fixed part of ourselves that we are chronically late, alcoholics, lazy, fearful, or impatient – at least to the extent that we are in this moment.. Our authentic self may vary from what we are now, and a clever controller could employ that possibility to their advantage, believing that they are actually doing their partner a service by encouraging them to unite with their true self.

I don’t think I'm alone in speaking of the temptation to "help" someone become better, believing that if they were true to themselves they wouldn't smoke or be overweight or spend so much time on a singles site.

So how can you tell if someone is an honest-to-god controller as opposed to someone who simply wishes the best for you and is trying to solve problems by attempting to persuade you to change – someone who actually might have your best interests at heart?

I doubt there's a simple answer to that question, but I suspect the basic test is to ask yourself if the "help" your partner is offering you is truly in your best interests (or could possibly be) and doesn't seem to aimed at overruling who you truly are. That's an assessment that may not be cut and dried, but there will be plenty of clues: his anger, insults, insistence on doing things his ways, lack of empathy, and constant picking you apart are signs that your partner is attempting to forge you into his Pretend Person. Over time you will see if he is looking out mostly for you or mostly for himself – and then you will have your answer.

When Do Attempts At Persuasion Become Controlling and Manipulative?

Maybe Canadian girls who are into grammar?

When Do Attempts At Persuasion Become Controlling and Manipulative?

Always a wise bet, WW. Something I've learned the hard way: Never bet against the Canadian Girl.

Not sure if that applies to all Canadian girls...probably not.

When Do Attempts At Persuasion Become Controlling and Manipulative?

Just visited your profile, Venie. My eyes, my eyes! If there is such a color as Hot Purple (with some pink?), you found it!

I agree about the private part. I know the lines, and I know I haven't crossed any, as per our agreement.

When Do Attempts At Persuasion Become Controlling and Manipulative?

The worst scars, I think, are those that aren't necessary or that can be healed.

When Do Attempts At Persuasion Become Controlling and Manipulative?

Well, I don't see it as crashing my threads or whatever. It's her right to speak her peace.

Speaking of Controlling and Manipulating - What Is It About Women and CATS???

Al, you never told me you lived in Cape Breton?!?

When Do Attempts At Persuasion Become Controlling and Manipulative?

Yeah, I suspect that's not uncommon, Ray. It's tough to transcend one's upbringing and the models for behavior that were imparted.

When Do Attempts At Persuasion Become Controlling and Manipulative?

To her. I'm glad she was able to do that, WW.

When Do Attempts At Persuasion Become Controlling and Manipulative?

(for the bell tolling)!

Yeah, he was a very sharp guy, no doubt about that. Rand was a great admirer of his, too.

Speaking of Controlling and Manipulating - What Is It About Women and CATS???

Heh. Well, that would be an interesting turnabout.

Speaking of Controlling and Manipulating - What Is It About Women and CATS???

Well, when you do, Ray, let me know and I'll start a thread on men and their rats.

Speaking of Controlling and Manipulating - What Is It About Women and CATS???

You could even try convincing tourists that kangaroo rides are fun! That might stimulate your medical sector a bit.

Oh...wait...you have universal healthcare. Not a good idea, then.

Speaking of Controlling and Manipulating - What Is It About Women and CATS???

Well, judging from my correspondence and the posts I've seen here, Island, some women (and even men) like to be controlled in some sense. I don't have a better description of certain behaviors at this point.

Speaking of Controlling and Manipulating - What Is It About Women and CATS???

Sorry. Meant to write: "...after my own "hat-blond wig-heart."

Speaking of Controlling and Manipulating - What Is It About Women and CATS???

How about a cat that has not been damned, Single?

Speaking of Controlling and Manipulating - What Is It About Women and CATS???

I could wear my blond wig under it, and we could be like matching photos, Intrigue!

Well, maybe not. I wouldn't want to do to Mounties what Monty P. did to lumberjacks, you know?

When Do Attempts At Persuasion Become Controlling and Manipulative?

Wow, your relationship with your ex-husband sure sounded fun, Arlene. I kind of winced when I read that.

And good luck with your snooty DIL. But be careful, girlfriend, about bossing yourself around too much. You wouldn't yourself to call you controlling or anything.

Speaking of Controlling and Manipulating - What Is It About Women and CATS???

You know, that's kinda the feeling I'm getting, Ab. I'm sure glad I haven't posted any photos of me wearing my genuine Canadian Mountie Hat.

When Do Attempts At Persuasion Become Controlling and Manipulative?

Jeez, you and your "left side"/"right side" brain. I haven't even managed to master the middle.

When Do Attempts At Persuasion Become Controlling and Manipulative?

Arlene!! Yeah, it's been awhile! Good to see you (and what took you so long to get back?)

I agree that attempting to make someone feel guilty in one form of manipulation. There are many others - from just plain deception/trickery to inducing fear. Yeah, the isolation thing is a popular one. That would apply to someone who's looking for maximal control, I think (there are many different degrees and flavors of control, from my readings and personal experience). If someone is attempting to isolate you, I would recommend being the lookout for duct tape, baling wire, and odd-looking protective goggles. Just sayin'.

Sounds like a delightful daughter-in-law.

When Do Attempts At Persuasion Become Controlling and Manipulative?

When you think about what it means to be omniscient?

When Do Attempts At Persuasion Become Controlling and Manipulative?

I wish, Al, I wish. Not really - have you ever teased out the logical implications of omniscience? I have, and it ain't pretty!

I limit myself to fantasizing about teleportation. I think of all the possibilities - many missed - had I had that capability.

Speaking of Controlling and Manipulating - What Is It About Women and CATS???

Is it the hat, Spark? It's genuine Aussie, I swear.

Speaking of Controlling and Manipulating - What Is It About Women and CATS???

Ah, now we're getting somewhere. "Here little mousy, here little mousy..." POUNCE!

Speaking of Controlling and Manipulating - What Is It About Women and CATS???

I knew a lady once who made those noises at night. Pretty much ALL night.