NatashasGhost Forum Posts (18)

RE: AYN RAND

Well I learned a little. Wasn't a complete loss. Good luck, all of you, with finding what you are looking for!

RE: AYN RAND

Oh, my I now understand where you are coming from.

antjo39:
"At this point related to human perception, of course, Rand sucks absolutely and sadly too."

Thank you for that thorough and logical breakdown of the things you find "wrong" with Rand's theories.

RE: AYN RAND

Can you explain any specific times where you feel her moral premises were fallacious?

RE: AYN RAND

If you don't believe there is an objective reality, then there is no foundation or basis on which we can argue.

RE: If Atheists had a "story" to convey

It would be their entire lives. An atheists story isn't about the beginning or end of humanity, it is about their lives, how they choose to live and the outcomes achieved BEFORE they die.

RE: AYN RAND

wonderworker:

"I detailed my understanding of the essays earlier.Her argument for a "morality"based on her Aristotelien notions of formal logic doesn't work well."

How so?

RE: AYN RAND

So you aren't really sure why you disagree with her?

RE: AYN RAND

What are your actual concerns with Rand's metaphysics?

RE: AYN RAND

Nietszhce can be taken in infinite ways? He is an open book?

We are all born. We are all taught basic premises and are given philosophies whether or not we consciously accept that we live by these philosophies--they still exist. Most people adopt their parents views with little to no thought.

The argument about economic systems creating concentration of wealth was an argument you laid out. We replied it wasn't actually capitalism, but the reality of mixed economies that we are seeing in today's economic trends. This subject was brought up through a general sentiment that Rand's philosophy was fallacious. I have yet to hear how it is fallacious, only that it is because [insert vague, generalized argument about something that Rand might not even have stood for].

RE: AYN RAND

Anyone besides Ambrose2007 ever actually read any of Rand's nonficiton...or even fiction? It would be nice to have an actually educated view of the topic present an argument.

RE: AYN RAND

I to am enjoying this Antjo39. I know that's not what you said but I am enjoying conversing with you, even if we dont' agree. I'm sorry if I came off as condescending. I didn't have that intention, but I had read in an earlier post that you believed capitilism was the cause of a lot of the corporate greed, that subsequently shifts a lot of wealth into a concentration around the top. In your words it was capitilism that does this. I was simply pointing out that capitilism has never existed, the economies around the world have been mixed economies. So you can say that it is the mixed economy folks who are responsible for the concentration of wealth to the exlusive poverty of the rest of a nation, in the future. Mixed economy folks doesn't sound as catchy though.


To reply to both of you: you don't seem to understand that her belief in capitialism was based on her conclusions in metaphysics. It wasn't based on what was happening around her at the time. Even in Rand's time there was plenty of coercive influence in the economic systems around the world. Her belief, that laissez-faire capitalism was the most moral and ethical aproach to the way man conducts his business, was based on her conclusions in metaphysics. What are your concerns with her metaphysics?

RE: AYN RAND

I don't understand what you mean by her living in the "good times". It seems you haven't even read a biography, let alone actually read her philosophy. She didn't promote capitialism because she lived in any particular period.

In her own words, "The moral justification of capitalism lies in the fact that it is the only system consonant with man’s rational nature, that it protects man’s survival qua man, and that its ruling principle is: justice."

"Capitalism demands the best of every man—his rationality—and rewards him accordingly. It leaves every man free to choose the work he likes, to specialize in it, to trade his product for the products of others, and to go as far on the road of achievement as his ability and ambition will carry him. His success depends on the objective value of his work and on the rationality of those who recognize that value. When men are free to trade, with reason and reality as their only arbiter, when no man may use physical force to extort the consent of another, it is the best product and the best judgment that win in every field of human endeavor, and raise the standard of living—and of thought—ever higher for all those who take part in mankind’s productive activity."

RE: AYN RAND

I've noticed that a lot of people treat philosophy as they would a god. It's as if philosophy(the investigation of the nature, causes, or principles of reality, knowledge, or values, based on logical reasoning rather than empirical methods)were something above or outside themselves that they can never fully understand. Everyone has a set of principles by which they live and base their opinions on. Everyone has a philosophy. It is deeply personal, and the pursuit, or lack of conscious pursuit, creates the foundation for each individual on the planet.

In this sense, I do feel a very personal connection to my inquiry, and continue to try to prove or disprove the things I believe.

RE: AYN RAND

When you are born on this planet you are not born with an innate philosophy on which to build moral premises. You can choose to believe what is told to you based on where, when and with whom you grow up or you can also search for information on morality and ethics. Either way you parrot something. I have a hard time blindly accepting everything people say so I have, from very early, tried to seek out what would be the most moral and ethical way to live. The truth is that there are lots of philosophies out there that are designed to control, not to teach about personal liberty.

Ayn Rand believed that capitalism was the only ethical economic system, because it is the only system that allows for full personal liberty. You own your body, the product of your body and time, and are allowed to freely--by your own choice--make decisions and trade for your own personal interest. It is the only system that does not allow one man or group of men to steal from another man or group of men.

Like I stated in the last post, most people don't understand how far reaching these misconceptions we have on reality really go. When you are born you learn ways from your parents, friends, family, churches, schools, etc. to deal with pretty much everything in life; either by them sitting you down and consciously teaching you about things, or you adopt their general behaviours and ideas as your own with very little knowledge that you did.

The amazing thing about living in the United States is that you don't have to believe me. You don't have to take my word for anything. If you believe you have come across a more logical, rational way to percieve the world and a less coercive, ignorant and violent way to treat men on this planet then Rand did; then please, let me know!

RE: AYN RAND

When I was about 8 years old I watched Ayn Rand on Donahue with my father. I was too young to fully understand the things she was saying. I remember having a deep sense of respect, as the things she was saying were completely different from the things I had heard adults around me saying at the time, and they seemed to quell a lot of the existential pain and confusion I felt from a lot of those things adults would say. (I couldn't define it then as such, but subsequently have.) I just remember wondering why the people in the audience were hissing at her when she was championing their rights as individuals.

When I was 13 years old I found a copy of the The Fountainhead on a trash can in San Diego. I was finally capable of studying her and of actually understanding the things she was explaining in her allegories. I have never found a philosopher, before or since, that hadn't contradicted themselves and that could logically back up her philosophical conclusions, as she has.

That's just one site, there is a lot more research available but this is the best place to start.

After I had read all of her ficiton and most of her nonfiction I starting reading a lot of the Ojectivist essays and websites. I realized I was in a real danger of completely adopting everything someone said simply because they deemed themselves Ojectivists. I was 16, and decided I needed to study the competition, In a lot of ways, I changed some of my moral premises to try to live some things out to their logical (though in all cases illogical) ends.

I was always faced with moral ambiguities, not to mention the anxiety that comes from living life as an animal would, in a lot of cases. I am not only an animal; I am a rational, conscious human being. I live on planet Earth, and I do believe that there is a correct way to live as such.

Some reasons I've noticed that a lot of people misinterprete Rand is because 1) they haven't taken the time to actually understand her philosophy (by far the largest), 2) they don't understand the entire thing (the moral and ethical misconcetpions that we have are far more wide spread and indoctrinated then most can conceive), 3) they do not want to live rationally and freely. Though there may be other reasons I haven't come across any as of yet, that are valid. Can you?

As far as her being a "political paranoiac", have you heard about the Patriot Act? And capitalism, in my research of economic systems, has produced the best standard of living--from rich cats to minimum wage workers--for its human components, then any other economic system in history. Walk around with a camera in the third world and it won't be two minutes before you have someone asking you to take them to the US. Free market trade is the only ethical style of commerce.



To understand Rand, read her allegorical novels, then read her nonfiction. It's a beautiful way to learn a philosophy (kudos Rand) and it will allow you to watch her conclusions work in human context. Notice, not in some heavenly or fallacious context, but in reality.

RE: Your favorite piece of art and why

I have a large reprint of this hanging in my bedroom. It is really interesting and always sparks so much thought for me!

IF I have to choose a favorite-which is very hard-then I would have to say Klimt's Death and Life.

RE: What did u learn from these threads and from this site?

My favorite part of this site so far.

RE: U.F.O'S :Do u beleive them or its just a fiction

I'm not sure if there is life elsewhere. However, a UFO doesn't have to be flown by aliens to make it a UFO. I do believe that the arms race never ended. I believe it went underground. I mean we have lasers they put on Humvees that are a form of crowd control. They can incapacitate large groups of people by making their skin burn from the inside. We didn't know about the stealth bomber for what, 20 years. You never know...