Children and the state (75)
Iuchi_Zien: So because some people are 'stupid' or uneducated or more gullible than others they don't deserve to be protected from the more predatory amongst us? They deserve to be scammed, lied to, cheated and oppressed? and their children don't deserve the protection of the state? I do SEE your point, but I don't agree with your conclusion. There are people at the 'bottom of the pile' who are there because they have never been given a chance. That chance is an education, financial support so they can AFFORD to attend that education, healthcare so they are WELL ENOUGH to attend that education and recognition that they WILL BE GIVEN the chance to turn that education into Social mobility. Otherwise we continue to repeat the mistakes of every other generation.
Humanity is a social structure since the dawn of time. Has been and always will be that way. No person can change that. That's my point. There will always be different social structures. The main problem; and this will sound bad; is that humanity is the only species on earth with the ability to defy the laws of nature. When it's done then you get the gene pool we have now.
The weak will always be preyed upon by the strong.
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Ccincy: #2. I have an issue with.I'll get banned if I answer why I do.
Speak up, I asked a question, I did not say they were my views, and in my opinion it is a legitimate question. If the state refuses to fund children from socially deprived backgrounds how does it justify subsidising children with disabilities? Isn't social deprivation a form of disability? It's called 'the thin end of the wedge'
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Iuchi_Zien: Isn't social deprivation a form of disability?
No it's not the same.
Social deprivation can be over come. Physical and mental disabilities cannot.
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Pouring every penny, shilling and whatever the currency is into education of the masses is not gonna work if they don't want to change.
You have to first be willing to help yourself first. Other wise you might as well flush it down the toilet.
You have to first be willing to help yourself first. Other wise you might as well flush it down the toilet.
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Actractorguy: No it's not the same.
Social deprivation can be over come. Physical and mental disabilities cannot.
Social deprivation can be over come. Physical and mental disabilities cannot.
Yes they can. in fact in some cases it is EASIER to overcome mental or physical disabilities than it is to overcome social deprivation.
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Actractorguy: Pouring every penny, shilling and whatever the currency is into education of the masses is not gonna work if they don't want to change.
You have to first be willing to help yourself first. Other wise you might as well flush it down the toilet.
You have to first be willing to help yourself first. Other wise you might as well flush it down the toilet.
And who gets to decide who deserves the opportunity and who doesn't. Explain to me how that is going to work? If you want desperately to learn, but your parents, poorly educated or just plain poor don't see the point in an education how are you going to fare? How do you deal with peer pressure from people who believe the future so bleak there is no point in an education? Do you just write them off? The next Einstein? the next Mozart?
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Actractorguy: Because of the structure of nature. It sucks but you don't see disabled animals contributing to the gene pool. I don't like the preying on the weak but nature is what nature is.
Again, I don't agree, Elephants will protect the weak of the herd from predation, Meerkats will do the same. What kind of example does it set that we 'the smartest of the animals' don't?
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Iuchi_Zien: Yes they can. in fact in some cases it is EASIER to overcome mental or physical disabilities than it is to overcome social deprivation.
You are spinning your question.
Isn't social deprivation a form of disability?
Social deprivation is not a disability it is a circumstance. I was born into a certain circumstance I worked to better myself and overcame that circumstance. It can be done by anyone willing to. Those that are born to poor and remain there do not want to change their circumstance. I have seen many poor people rise up and better themselves. It's all in the will to do it or not.
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Iuchi_Zien: Again, I don't agree, Elephants will protect the weak of the herd from predation, Meerkats will do the same. What kind of example does it set that we 'the smartest of the animals' don't?
Yes but eventually that sick elephant dies.
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Actractorguy: You are spinning your question.
Isn't social deprivation a form of disability?
Social deprivation is not a disability it is a circumstance. I was born into a certain circumstance I worked to better myself and overcame that circumstance. It can be done by anyone willing to. Those that are born to poor and remain there do not want to change their circumstance. I have seen many poor people rise up and better themselves. It's all in the will to do it or not.
Isn't social deprivation a form of disability?
Social deprivation is not a disability it is a circumstance. I was born into a certain circumstance I worked to better myself and overcame that circumstance. It can be done by anyone willing to. Those that are born to poor and remain there do not want to change their circumstance. I have seen many poor people rise up and better themselves. It's all in the will to do it or not.
OK example.
A child born with profound deafness in a modern first world country will receive the best medical care and an enhanced education to prevent that disability from stopping them having a proper education, there is no reason to assume that child will not receive an education any less effective than a hearing child in the same society.
A child born in Africa to parents so poor they cannot afford the cost of an education, let alone put food on the table.
Who is deprived the deaf child or the poor child? Who has the better chance of improving upon there social background? Who is in the better position to overcome their 'circumstances?
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Iuchi_Zien: OK example.
A child born with profound deafness in a modern first world country will receive the best medical care and an enhanced education to prevent that disability from stopping them having a proper education, there is no reason to assume that child will not receive an education any less effective than a hearing child in the same society.
A child born in Africa to parents so poor they cannot afford the cost of an education, let alone put food on the table.
Who is deprived the deaf child or the poor child? Who has the better chance of improving upon there social background? Who is in the better position to overcome their 'circumstances?
A child born with profound deafness in a modern first world country will receive the best medical care and an enhanced education to prevent that disability from stopping them having a proper education, there is no reason to assume that child will not receive an education any less effective than a hearing child in the same society.
A child born in Africa to parents so poor they cannot afford the cost of an education, let alone put food on the table.
Who is deprived the deaf child or the poor child? Who has the better chance of improving upon there social background? Who is in the better position to overcome their 'circumstances?
Poor and wealthy are not to be compared between two countries. The are not the same. In some African countries Families that own cow's are considered wealthy. Your argument wont fly with me.
Compare apples to apples not apples to oranges. Then come back and debate.
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Actractorguy: Yes but eventually that sick elephant dies.
An elephant is born missing one eye. The herd WILL protect that elephant from predators and that elephant, if a female, stands a very good chance of having calves IN SPITE of the disability. Compare that with some parts of the world where a child born with one eye stands a very good chance of being left to die because the parents can't afford the medical care or the extra effort and expense of looking after such a child. You tell me which is the more 'civilized' behaviour?
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Iuchi_Zien: An elephant is born missing one eye. The herd WILL protect that elephant from predators and that elephant, if a female, stands a very good chance of having calves IN SPITE of the disability. Compare that with some parts of the world where a child born with one eye stands a very good chance of being left to die because the parents can't afford the medical care or the extra effort and expense of looking after such a child. You tell me which is the more 'civilized' behaviour?
It's still the circumstances. If the local society is not willing to deal with the problem then why should people from another country have to foot the bill. Don't get me wrong I am compassionate about it and fell sorry but I can't change their circumstances. Neither can you. Only they can.
Elephants travel in small herd's. Man is traveling in monstrous gangs. That is the reason for inequality. Size does matter.
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Actractorguy: Poor and wealthy are not to be compared between two countries. The are not the same. In some African countries Families that own cow's are considered wealthy. Your argument wont fly with me.
Compare apples to apples not apples to oranges. Then come back and debate.
Compare apples to apples not apples to oranges. Then come back and debate.
Why? are you saying some countries are more civilized than others? To be quite honest the deaf child could just as easily be from a wealthy African family who could afford to send their child to a special school. No doubt your argument will be well that doesn't apply to where I live, well it does. You look at the figures for educational success between affluent suburbs and inner city deprived schools and explain to me the difference. If both schools are receiving adequate resources (which one would expect from a wealthy country) why the mismatch?
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Iuchi_Zien: Why? are you saying some countries are more civilized than others? To be quite honest the deaf child could just as easily be from a wealthy African family who could afford to send their child to a special school. No doubt your argument will be well that doesn't apply to where I live, well it does. You look at the figures for educational success between affluent suburbs and inner city deprived schools and explain to me the difference. If both schools are receiving adequate resources (which one would expect from a wealthy country) why the mismatch?
Because of the family structure.
Those in the suburbs some of which pulled themselves out of the inner city have invested in Their Family to better their circumstances. Those in the inner city have yet to figure that out. Any person from any nation just has to want it bad enough and they will get it.
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Actractorguy: Because of the family structure.
Those in the suburbs some of which pulled themselves out of the inner city have invested in Their Family to better their circumstances. Those in the inner city have yet to figure that out. Any person from any nation just has to want it bad enough and they will get it.
Those in the suburbs some of which pulled themselves out of the inner city have invested in Their Family to better their circumstances. Those in the inner city have yet to figure that out. Any person from any nation just has to want it bad enough and they will get it.
Sorry that is rubbish, I have two children and am a single father. my five year old child is currently considered 'very bright' by her school, who are amazed at her reading ability which they describe as well above the standard expected for her age. My son is three and has a reading ability better than my daughter when she was three. Family is an excuse. I have an advantage I teach English, I have used that advantage to improve my children's opportunities. As for suburbs pulling themselves out of the inner city what you are actually describing is suburbs where the 'wealthy' have 'evicted' the poor by making the area too expensive for them to live in. Suddenly guess what? the school results rise and this has nothing to do with the poor being forced out of the area does it? Or have anything to do with the richer parents being better able to provide the extra resources required to boost those results? Resources not provided to 'poor' schools.
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Iuchi_Zien: Sorry that is rubbish, I have two children and am a single father. my five year old child is currently considered 'very bright' by her school, who are amazed at her reading ability which they describe as well above the standard expected for her age. My son is three and has a reading ability better than my daughter when she was three. Family is an excuse. I have an advantage I teach English, I have used that advantage to improve my children's opportunities. As for suburbs pulling themselves out of the inner city what you are actually describing is suburbs where the 'wealthy' have 'evicted' the poor by making the area too expensive for them to live in. Suddenly guess what? the school results rise and this has nothing to do with the poor being forced out of the area does it? Or have anything to do with the richer parents being better able to provide the extra resources required to boost those results? Resources not provided to 'poor' schools.
First off Glad for your children they sound smart. However Being able to read is much different than comprehension. People who dig their way out of poverty usually have a better understanding of what they read and there fore gain the knowledge to dig themselves out.
It's still a circumstance. We are off the topic but you brought it to this point. My son at 3 was reading and comprehending at a 6th grade level. Does not mean he will be a rich person some day although I hope he will. It's all in how he is raised by the family unit.
If the inner city people want to live in government housing and have their big screen tv's drugs and just a general overall poor attitude then that is what they deserve.
Yes that is also in the suburbs but not as prevalent. It's choice free will what ever you want to call it.
You still have to be willing to help your self before others will help.
It boils down to Circumstance and what you are willing to do.
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Actractorguy: First off Glad for your children they sound smart. However Being able to read is much different than comprehension. People who dig their way out of poverty usually have a better understanding of what they read and there fore gain the knowledge to dig themselves out.
It's still a circumstance. We are off the topic but you brought it to this point. My son at 3 was reading and comprehending at a 6th grade level. Does not mean he will be a rich person some day although I hope he will. It's all in how he is raised by the family unit.
If the inner city people want to live in government housing and have their big screen tv's drugs and just a general overall poor attitude then that is what they deserve.
Yes that is also in the suburbs but not as prevalent. It's choice free will what ever you want to call it.
You still have to be willing to help your self before others will help.
It boils down to Circumstance and what you are willing to do.
It's still a circumstance. We are off the topic but you brought it to this point. My son at 3 was reading and comprehending at a 6th grade level. Does not mean he will be a rich person some day although I hope he will. It's all in how he is raised by the family unit.
If the inner city people want to live in government housing and have their big screen tv's drugs and just a general overall poor attitude then that is what they deserve.
Yes that is also in the suburbs but not as prevalent. It's choice free will what ever you want to call it.
You still have to be willing to help your self before others will help.
It boils down to Circumstance and what you are willing to do.
No circumstances play a part but that is all, If you can't afford to put food on the table, if you can't afford clothes for your child to go to school in, if you have such a low opinion of yourself that you consider education to be worthless how are your children going to stand a chance? Is it right that your children should have their dreams and hopes dashed by the grinding poverty of their parents. As to the comment about big screen tv's and drugs that is a smoke screen.
When 11% of the population of the US were 'food insecure' at some point during the year (2008) this means 11% of the population of the US at some point during the year could not put enough food on the table to feed their family. Do you think education remains a priority when you can't feed your family? Yet short of crime drug dealing etc the only way out of the poverty trap is EDUCATION!
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Iuchi_Zien: No circumstances play a part but that is all, If you can't afford to put food on the table, if you can't afford clothes for your child to go to school in, if you have such a low opinion of yourself that you consider education to be worthless how are your children going to stand a chance? Is it right that your children should have their dreams and hopes dashed by the grinding poverty of their parents. As to the comment about big screen tv's and drugs that is a smoke screen.
When 11% of the population of the US were 'food insecure' at some point during the year (2008) this means 11% of the population of the US at some point during the year could not put enough food on the table to feed their family. Do you think education remains a priority when you can't feed your family? Yet short of crime drug dealing etc the only way out of the poverty trap is EDUCATION!
When 11% of the population of the US were 'food insecure' at some point during the year (2008) this means 11% of the population of the US at some point during the year could not put enough food on the table to feed their family. Do you think education remains a priority when you can't feed your family? Yet short of crime drug dealing etc the only way out of the poverty trap is EDUCATION!
More and more people are having a hard time taking care of their own. It happens. But I can tell you this. My children are not in the government run schools. They are home schooled. If more parent's tried that then they will have effected a better life for their children in showing they care about them. School's now are nothing more than a place to babysit. They teach nothing and the teachers often times have to spend most of their time dealing with the troubled students and guess what that takes time away from the one's there that want to actually better themselves.
The ones that take the initiative are the ones that better themselves period.
There is a reason why some humans left Africa back when they did. The took the steps to better themselves and to grow.
Good luck in your endeavors to get people to feel sorry for the situation. I don't. It's up to them to make their lives better.
Look at Afghanistan We the US and nato forces are there and they don't want the change they just want to be left alone to live as they have. Don't believe me as Russia.
Not my place to change someone my place is to worry about my self first then my children.
Tired of arguing. Let's just agree to disagree and leave it at that.
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1. Should the state subsidise the children from poor families who cannot afford to raise their children on the incomes they have?
2. IF not, should parents be allowed to bring handicapped children into the world without the resources to fund their requirements without access to public funds?
3. Where do you stop? Do you go to a Romanian system where the children were 'dumped' in state orphanages if the parents ran out of money? Do you force the poor to have abortions if they cannot afford to look after their children?
#2. I have an issue with.I'll get banned if I answer why I do.