Christ in Christmas? (52)
To me it doesnt matter where he lived, when he lived, what language he spoke. It doesnt even matter if he lived at all. It doesnt matter how corrupted the bibles translations got. Its the idea/notion that he lived. The perfect someone.
Thats enough for me.
Thats enough for me.
This is the time of year when we celebrate the solstice, and the promise of a new year, Christ came later.
stanley8m: Constantine, who has been referred to several times here, paved the way for the Dark Ages - which caused untold suffering and held back human development for over a thousand years.Dante, How did you come up with that theory? Sundance stated that Constantine GAVE us christianity and now you are saying he was responsible for the dark ages.
From my reading on Emperor Constantine, he was the first Christian Emperor of Rome, baptised on his deathbed. He had earlier in his reign passed laws allowing Christians to practice their religion. The previous Emperor, Diocletian had actively encouraged their persecution.
He established Constantinople in the place of the former Byzantine, and formed defensive mobile equestrian armies to supplement the Roman border defences on the trouble spots of the Rhine and Danube. A fair and just ruler, a very successful and well thought of Emperor.
He attended and was instrumental in initiating the Council of Nicea to work out the theological differences between different factions of Christianity. Among other points, whether all three members of the Holy trinity, God the father, Christ the son and the Holy spirit all had equal status.
How does this make him responsible for the dark ages and giving us Christianity? Listen lads, please don't use wikipedia as a point of reference as they are usually written by some freaks from California, who have far too much time on their hands, and personally I would not trust them as a reliable source.
From my reading on Emperor Constantine, he was the first Christian Emperor of Rome, baptised on his deathbed. He had earlier in his reign passed laws allowing Christians to practice their religion. The previous Emperor, Diocletian had actively encouraged their persecution.
He established Constantinople in the place of the former Byzantine, and formed defensive mobile equestrian armies to supplement the Roman border defences on the trouble spots of the Rhine and Danube. A fair and just ruler, a very successful and well thought of Emperor.
He attended and was instrumental in initiating the Council of Nicea to work out the theological differences between different factions of Christianity. Among other points, whether all three members of the Holy trinity, God the father, Christ the son and the Holy spirit all had equal status.
How does this make him responsible for the dark ages and giving us Christianity? Listen lads, please don't use wikipedia as a point of reference as they are usually written by some freaks from California, who have far too much time on their hands, and personally I would not trust them as a reliable source.
Hey there. If you read that post more closely you'll see I used the phrase: "paved the way". I don't know where you got the Wikipedia thing from, I never referred to it at all.
Constantine was an emperor around the same time as the fall of the Roman Empire. It is slowly becoming known now that the Romans, and the Ancient Greeks from which the Romans gained much of their knowledge, were far more advanced than initially thought. Constantine, seeing the Roman empire crumble into decadence, considered the pursuit of material gains, and by association, advances in knowledge, a futile pursuit. He thought that all pursuit of happiness, knowledge or wealth was pointless, that the only world worth considering was the spiritual realm of "heaven". That the mortal life only existed to prepare us for the next, spiritual, life. He advocated a belief system which ultimately led to the Dark Ages. The Renaissance, which marked the beginning of our ascent from the Dark Ages, drew alot of inspiration from Ancient Greek and Roman libraries which had survived book burnings to still exist at that time. We know that Christianity said the world was flat, and that Galileo dispelled that myth amongst much persecution, but we also know now that the Ancient Greeks had similar knowledge millennia before. The legal system of Renaissance times, mathematics, even school curriculums are based on Roman and Greek systems that came back into use in the years preceding and during the Renaissance. We still use some of those systems today. It was in Constantine's time that Christianity rose from a small group of Cult factions to mainstream organised religions. His conversion to Christianity was one of those seemingly small historical occurrences that snowballed, laying the foundations for the Dark Ages ultimately halting our scientific development for the next thousand years. The reference, for the part referring to Constantine, is: "The Day the Universe Changed" - a British documentary series hosted by science historian James Burke. It focuses on the origin of belief sets, i.e. how modern ways of thinking came to be.
fitandfun79: religion caused more wars and deaths and destruction than anything else
There's another fine myth. We have fought wars for territory, power, gold, money, oil and resources but religion was only sometimes the excuse used. These days they use 'Democracy' as their war lie. If you want to get eejits to fight for you one of the best ways is to convince them they are defending their religion but religion is not the cause of the war, ignorance and greed is. In the last century Fascism and Communism were the biggest causes of war, this century has been about oil so far but soon it will be about water.
SundanceWCork: There's another fine myth. We have fought wars for territory, power, gold, money, oil and resources but religion was only sometimes the excuse used. These days they use 'Democracy' as their war lie. If you want to get eejits to fight for you one of the best ways is to convince them they are defending their religion but religion is not the cause of the war, ignorance and greed is. In the last century Fascism and Communism were the biggest causes of war, this century has been about oil so far but soon it will be about water.
never said wars weren't fought over other things!! but you're wrong to say it's a myth that religion wasn't the cause of death and destruction... the crusades being one example, but hey.. doesn't matter.. you seem to know it all already!
fitandfun79: never said wars weren't fought over other things!! but you're wrong to say it's a myth that religion wasn't the cause of death and destruction... the crusades being one example, but hey.. doesn't matter.. you seem to know it all already!
The Crusades were fought over territory and yes, a lot of eejits believed it was about their religion and joined in on the slaughter for that reason but they were just duped. You should seek out a book called "The Crusades: separating myth from reality". The idea that the Crusades were religious wars began during the Enlightenment. It's a very misleading idea and one that serves to conceal the true motivations of the ancestors of our present European leaders, who still dupe fools into fighting nebulous ideas like 'terrorism' and 'democracy' when what they are really after is much more tangible.
SundanceWCork: The Crusades were fought over territory and yes, a lot of eejits believed it was about their religion and joined in on the slaughter for that reason but they were just duped. You should seek out a book called "The Crusades: separating myth from reality". The idea that the Crusades were religious wars began during the Enlightenment. It's a very misleading idea and one that serves to conceal the true motivations of the ancestors of our present European leaders, who still dupe fools into fighting nebulous ideas like 'terrorism' and 'democracy' when what they are really after is much more tangible.
doesn't matter if people were 'duped' into a cause or a war, it's the fact that religion can be used to 'dupe' people in, shows the real nature of things...
but sure pointless debating with ya really.. you know the answers anyway...
6 million jews would beg to differ on your opinion....
so would the hundreds of thousands of catholics and protestants killed in numerous wars throughut europe over the past 800 years.
Isreal and Hezbolah!
Hutu's and Tutsi's
the Shia and the Kurds
The indegenious peoples of South America by the religious spanish and porteguese.
I could go on!!! I never claimed every war was religiously motivated. And even if people were 'duped' into believing they were doing it for a religious cause it doesn't make it any less valid that religion can and has been used to murder people. Suicide bombers and their Jihad are a perfect example in todays climate. Religiously motivated murder.
fitandfun79: doesn't matter if people were 'duped' into a cause or a war, it's the fact that religion can be used to 'dupe' people in, shows the real nature of things...
but sure pointless debating with ya really.. you know the answers anyway...
6 million jews would beg to differ on your opinion....
so would the hundreds of thousands of catholics and protestants killed in numerous wars throughut europe over the past 800 years.
Isreal and Hezbolah!
Hutu's and Tutsi's
the Shia and the Kurds
The indegenious peoples of South America by the religious spanish and porteguese.
I could go on!!! I never claimed every war was religiously motivated. And even if people were 'duped' into believing they were doing it for a religious cause it doesn't make it any less valid that religion can and has been used to murder people. Suicide bombers and their Jihad are a perfect example in todays climate. Religiously motivated murder.
but sure pointless debating with ya really.. you know the answers anyway...
6 million jews would beg to differ on your opinion....
so would the hundreds of thousands of catholics and protestants killed in numerous wars throughut europe over the past 800 years.
Isreal and Hezbolah!
Hutu's and Tutsi's
the Shia and the Kurds
The indegenious peoples of South America by the religious spanish and porteguese.
I could go on!!! I never claimed every war was religiously motivated. And even if people were 'duped' into believing they were doing it for a religious cause it doesn't make it any less valid that religion can and has been used to murder people. Suicide bombers and their Jihad are a perfect example in todays climate. Religiously motivated murder.
milankovic: To me it doesnt matter where he lived, when he lived, what language he spoke. It doesnt even matter if he lived at all. It doesnt matter how corrupted the bibles translations got. Its the idea/notion that he lived. The perfect someone.
Perfect? How so? We know he had the sins of pride and anger when he threw the traders out of the temple so I presume he had the rest too. And as to hitching my life's principle to a man who engineered is own death and had a messiah complex.......Am I the only one who doesn't find the notion of following this man's example absolutely and utterly insane?
Thats enough for me.
Perfect? How so? We know he had the sins of pride and anger when he threw the traders out of the temple so I presume he had the rest too. And as to hitching my life's principle to a man who engineered is own death and had a messiah complex.......Am I the only one who doesn't find the notion of following this man's example absolutely and utterly insane?
Thats enough for me.
dantes85: Hey there. If you read that post more closely you'll see I used the phrase: "paved the way". I don't know where you got the Wikipedia thing from, I never referred to it at all. Constantine was an emperor around the same time as the fall of the Roman Empire. It is slowly becoming known now that the Romans, and the Ancient Greeks from which the Romans gained much of their knowledge, were far more advanced than initially thought. Constantine, seeing the Roman empire crumble into decadence, considered the pursuit of material gains, and by association, advances in knowledge, a futile pursuit. He thought that all pursuit of happiness, knowledge or wealth was pointless, that the only world worth considering was the spiritual realm of "heaven". That the mortal life only existed to prepare us for the next, spiritual, life. He advocated a belief system which ultimately led to the Dark Ages. The Renaissance, which marked the beginning of our ascent from the Dark Ages, drew alot of inspiration from Ancient Greek and Roman libraries which had survived book burnings to still exist at that time. We know that Christianity said the world was flat, and that Galileo dispelled that myth amongst much persecution, but we also know now that the Ancient Greeks had similar knowledge millennia before. The legal system of Renaissance times, mathematics, even school curriculums are based on Roman and Greek systems that came back into use in the years preceding and during the Renaissance. We still use some of those systems today. It was in Constantine's time that Christianity rose from a small group of Cult factions to mainstream organised religions. His conversion to Christianity was one of those seemingly small historical occurrences that snowballed, laying the foundations for the Dark Ages ultimately halting our scientific development for the next thousand years.
The reference, for the part referring to Constantine, is: "The Day the Universe Changed" - a British documentary series hosted by science historian James Burke. It focuses on the origin of belief sets, i.e. how modern ways of thinking came to be.
The reference, for the part referring to Constantine, is: "The Day the Universe Changed" - a British documentary series hosted by science historian James Burke. It focuses on the origin of belief sets, i.e. how modern ways of thinking came to be.
Yeah, I see your point and it could be a valid argument that Constanine paved the way.
However I would suggest that there were a combination of different factors leading to the decline of law and order and the descent of the dark ages.
It could be argued that once Rome started recruiting soldiers from outside its traditional Roman and latin base, the Empire began its decline.
Over expansion and a border that often cost more to maintain than the protected territory produced.
The Romanisation of barbarian tribes and their realisation that if they united under one war leader they would be more powerful than Rome itself and therefore reap the benefits of power and wealth associated with the Empire.
Anyway, back to Christ in Christmas, I have my beliefs and I don't ask anyone to convert or follow my faith.
As I said earlier in the thread , the message Jesus gave us is in the Bible, if anyone wants to take the time and read it.
Treat people well and live your life in a good and decent way. Most people do it anyway, whether they believe in God or not. It isn't a difficult way to get through life.
Happy Hanukkah!
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Dante, How did you come up with that theory? Sundance stated that Constantine GAVE us christianity and now you are saying he was responsible for the dark ages.
From my reading on Emperor Constantine, he was the first Christian Emperor of Rome, baptised on his deathbed. He had earlier in his reign passed laws allowing Christians to practice their religion. The previous Emperor, Diocletian had actively encouraged their persecution.
He established Constantinople in the place of the former Byzantine, and formed defensive mobile equestrian armies to supplement the Roman border defences on the trouble spots of the Rhine and Danube. A fair and just ruler, a very successful and well thought of Emperor.
He attended and was instrumental in initiating the Council of Nicea to work out the theological differences between different factions of Christianity. Among other points, whether all three members of the Holy trinity, God the father, Christ the son and the Holy spirit all had equal status.
How does this make him responsible for the dark ages and giving us Christianity? Listen lads, please don't use wikipedia as a point of reference as they are usually written by some freaks from California, who have far too much time on their hands, and personally I would not trust them as a reliable source.