This is the first......the other one above is the second part
Hello and thank you for your welcome! What I wrote was only that what I feel. I have no side or religion. I study the Bible and the Quran by myself. I read both of them in German and the Quran also in Turkish. But the point is the Quran or Muslims.
I think here that it is very important to find a good translation. A translation w/o interpretation!! Just a translation of the original. I read many translations and they are all different. If I remember right than somebody show here the Sura 2:191......I read it and in my eyes this isn't a correct translation BUT this is something what everybody could find out if they take the time to research. I would recommend to read 2:191 together with 2:190 and in the same Sura you will find also (don't remember the vers): "There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion." The verse 190 and 191 is related to the defensive warfare, I think this is important to know: 2:190 Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors (If you start the fight). 2:191 And kill them wherever you overtake them (during the defensive war) and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.
What is the meaning of Muslim......Muslim is one who submits to God. How many of the Muslim people read the Quran w/o interpretation or read it at all and try to understand it? There is always an Imam or somebody who says "I know it, I will tell you, I know the real meaning...." and they listen to them. Can you imagine that???? So "There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion."....you only INVITE people to Islam w/o any force. This is the message. Many thing were realated to that time...to deal with the actual moment. Many rules about marriage and so on.......as you mentioned, forget the past. I couldn't agree more with you on that statement!!
So in my eyes there is nothing written to KILL people who are not ISLAM.
What about Jihad?? Well there are enough scholars and theologians who discuss the meaning of it. It is clear that there is the inner Jihad, which is the so called "greater Jihad" and the outer Jihad. The outer Jihad is related to the "defensive warfare" and the greater Jihad is someting that Muslims have always....the war with the bad habbits, with the Ego. This is my understanding and I don't claim to be right here. It is only my own "interpretation".
People don't read anything.....they just take the interpretation or ideology of others. They don't question anything, they just accept what others tell them and FOLLOW them. You have so many European people who join the IS! They raise there finger up to heaven, repeat a couple of words and than there are Muslims and ready for Jihad. That is the fact, isn't it? There is something written for a particular case which was actual at that time. Than people cut out some pieces and interpret them.
The word ISLAM derived from the Arabic root "Salema": peace, purity, submission and obedience. In the religious sense, Islam means submission to the will of God and obedience to His law. And there is NO LAW to kill people who don't believe in Islam, that is fact!
I couldn't find in any of the "known big Religions" such a thing but in every Religion people KILL others who don't beleive in their religion or force them to their own religion.
I get your point of view! I just think that the world doesn't care about that what I think or what you think. The world keep moving on his own rules. All the politics, all the power, all the status, all the clever guys.....all of them become nothing or just philosophy when the world/nature "speak". Look at the earthquake 1999 in Turkey. The first people who offer help and arrive first in Istanbul to help are the western world. At this time there was no problem with neighbors ( I mean Greece) or others or religion or whatever! I was there on vacation. The same day people from Germany called me and ask how they can help. They organize 3 trucks full of clothes, foods, medicine....and many more. The trucks arrive in Istanbul 9 days after the earthquake. This was a private help.
Hello, well there is already everything said about that what Erdogan achieve with many facts. So thanks to all the other people who wrote this facts!
Actual Erdogan isn't the prime minister anymore, he is the Federal President so that means he must be neutral. Unfortunately when he talks than he still say "we" regarding AK Party or he starts talks with "in our religion...."!! So not every Turkish person is AK Party and we have so many different religions in Turkey! Like the mine disaster...the company of this disaster can participate in a public tender and get the energy project because they are from the party.
Last week I wrote a similar comment on the Charlie Hebdo thread and I have the feeling that this match also in this discussion (at some place):
It starts always with "my god...not your god" and than it continue with "OUR god...not your god" and the rest is history. Nice quote from Winston Churchill about History: "History is simple one damned thing after another"
I wrote here already about my personal life just to say: it is not a problem a people from different culture, religion, beliefs...etc can live together and become friends. Change your thoughts, change your life!
By the way a quote by Hafiz that I also love: I Have Learned So much from God That I can no longer Call Myself A Christian, a Hindu, a Muslim, A Buddhist, a Jew.
All what they did so far on the paper...or all this statistics, well I don't look at them and just look on the streets.
On paper everything is nice in real life.....the only winner are a couple of people from the party but not the whole nation. Very simple thing...you have an inflation rate below 10% but it is standard that prices of energy or food increase 3 to 4 times in a year and this up to 100%. There are no details needed it is just a simple example!
More and more of their bad work exposing everyday and it is always the same......instead of talking about this they start discussion about religion, patriotism......
The election of him last year but also before that happens with illegal tricks and it is not possible to judge them because now they have their own people in every possible position. On national TV Erdogan get something like 240 minutes and his opponent only 90 seconds. Or it must be a very very big cat who was able to knock out the transformer of a whole district of Istanbul on election day. This was the comment of the Energy Minister....
I think all the facts are already on the table about this organisation but you will not find them in the newspaper or on CNN but on the streets. As everybody knows is that they already control the media.
Good point! If you say Erdogan-Turkey than I fully agree with you but Turkey in general?? This government supported the IS since many years this already proven (they buy petrol from this ISIS guys over many years!) That this government worked with Billions of Dollars from Iran is also proven! And many other activities in the middle eastern. They take away the power of Military and secret service so that they can't act against them. All the police officer, police director on highest level, judge and federal prosecutor which were involved to expose the corruption of Erdogans minister either arrested or misplaced (we talking here about over 800 people!). I talking about people on highest position and you have many federal prosecutor and police director which are specialized in suppression of terrorism. This is fact! And the funny thing is the accusation........the accusation is that they support terrorism!!! So far nobody can proof that but they still in jail. Due to the majority of number at the parliament they can create every rule and protect this ministers and their own actions. Oh, maybe it is normal that ministers have 30 or 40 Million Euros in a shoe box under their bed and I'm wrong. When this pop up they simple block all media including youtube and twitter. The head of Samanyolu TV is still in jail and nobody knows why. Even his lawyer can't see all the documents against their client (maybe there exists nothing). Same with secret agent which did all the audio monitoring. What I write here is generally known and nothing secret. 2 days ago they arrested a female journalist and threaten her with 5 years jail due to a tweet!! She post something regarding the 4 minister.
Can you imagine how many bed you can place in this palace and how many shoe boxes under this beds?? WOW!
But this government isn't Turkey! The days this government didn't act against ISIS in Sytia, this days the Turkish people demonstrate every day on the street against ISIS. Since the Istanbul-Gazi everybody knows how the government reacts against demonstration. But this doesn't stop the people here.
Consent and knowledge....yes but this information again the terror organisation ISIS was/is available only at the table of another organisation.
ISIS is not Turkey and Erdogan-Turkey don't representing Turkish people. A person who describe himself as a "world leader" has not only problems........he is a problem.
So you are right and I only want to add some facts to show you that it isn't whole Turkey who support ISIS. There are many people at the ISIS and their origin is from UK, Germany, France, Netherlands.....etc. but this doesn't mean that this Countries support the ISIS. Thanks
If I remember right than Winston Churchill said: History is one damned thing after another.
Unfortunately we don't learn from history!
In general I agree that there is lack if we talk about human rights or democratic basics! And if we talk about PKK......well every country has or had this kind of problems. RAF in the 70s-80s in Germany! People died. "The Trouble" or Northern Ireland conflict (Republic of Ireland-England). It starts in the 60s and ended with the Belfast "Good Friday" Agreement in the late 90s. People died! Or ETA (Euskadi Ta Askatasuna) in Spain. Also start in the 60s and I hear that until today there died nearly 1000 people. Again people died. Or the Balkan War, how many people died there? Or Ukraine. You find it everywhere and the result is always the same....people die!
You have something like 20 Million Kurdish people living all over Turkey. I don't think that they will move back if they get "Kurdistan". Many of them born in Turkey. How many people living in "Kurdistan", in the hills and fight for PKK.
I see only the results....people do things like bomb attack and innocent people die or innocent people get arrested!
Or how many Greece people living in Turkey....how many Turkish people living in Greece. Do we need all that discussion NOW? Or maybe it is better to think together about more important things than that what happens 30-40-50 or 100 years ago! My great-grandfather died at the Battle of Gallipoli. Hmm....who should I attack now?
Cyprus is a very very nice place. BOTH SIDES of Cyprus. The guys should think about the problems of whole Cyprus like water, waste industry or sewage system. This is actual needed in Cyprus and not history.
History is simple one damned thing after another!
I know and see that there are enough Turkish people who fully match with the idea of EU. What everybody discuss are the action, comments of the actual government...and this since 12 years. This government system is not suitable with EU. Turkey is pretty interesting for the EU, that is also fact! I have the feeling that too many people get lost in details and forget the whole picture.
Hello Leo, for me it doesn't really matter whet I am! Maybe my wording was not the right one....my attitude and some thoughts more "German than Turkish". My father is from Macedonia, that is right, they moved 1951 BACK to Turkey after 258 years Macedonia but it doesn't matter for me! Very good friends of me are Greek, Serbian and German-Jew. Oh my god...how is that possible a Turkish guy say that?!?! We always are friends, very close friends and we don't care what politics discuss or do. So all the discussion between Greece and Turkey....I can't remember only one situation were I had any problems with my Greek friend and his family. I know his whole family and he mine. Or the Balkan war.....no problem with my Serbian friend or his family. I felt and feel always comfortable when I visit my Jewish friend and I'm sure that he feels also good when he visit me! We don't talk or act out from a conditioned mind because one thing what we have in common is.....we are all HUMAN!
Regarding "need to tell me how stupid Turkish men on this site, I know that very well but don't judge a book only due to his cover."....... I get kind of tired to hear the comments of woman in a continue conversation, I mean their experience so far with Turkish men on dating sites. That is the reason why I write this. So there is no hidden meaning like "hey I wasn't born in Turkey...so I'm better" or something like that. There are enough of not Turkish men who are gamer, that is fact, but I'm here in Turkey so I wrote this in my profile. So I don't mean all Turkish men.
Turkey is not the actual political situation and Turkey is also not only tourism places like Antalya-Alanya-Marmaris-Bodrum.... Turkey is still a very beautiful place for me and this has nothing to do whether my roots from here or not! I lived also in Austria, Italy, Spain and Japan. Every place has his own attraction. Is patriotism needed to like or love a country or to just enjoy living in that country?
Maybe it sounds stupid but I'm more German than Turkish. I spent 38 years in Germany and now I live in 2 countries. I'm one of the first generation who was born in Germany. Turkish people in Germany are different. They moved in the early 60s to Germany with the mind setting...."make some Deutsch Mark and than move back to Turkey" They came with mind setting of honor, decency of that time in Turkey. This what they teach their children. So we learn other value of the people here in Turkey. Turkish people outside of Turkey know Turkey only from vacation. Unfortunately there are still so many people in Europe which can't speak very well the language of the county and they also don't speak very well Turkish. OK, the actual generation is different but there are still many people who create a new language, a mix of Turkish-German (as example). You need to life here to see how it is.
His biggest support is from country side! Just have look at the links below:
The last 2 years he visit 2 times my city and it was always the same........he bring the public/audience by bus from country side to look at TV or media. This is well known in Turkey. So as "normal" person you can't visit his talk. Funny! That they fake the election result is also clearly like many other things but nobody can't proof it because they get all authorities under their control. Many people at the country side complain but at the end they are bound and "must" elect him or his party or they get no support or lost their job. Well kind of modern dictatorship.
It is what it is and it is the "ERDOGAN TURKEY"! In the last 12-13 years this "Erdogan Turkey" growth and unfortunately many thing changed. It affected whole Turkey and also most of Turkish people. If I look at Europe and than to Turkey......well I can't imagine Turkey in the EU. Not only due to the political situation.....it is much more. Maybe my fault is that I compare it with Germany. There are this small and simple things which don't work her in Turkey. Merkel or Germany.....they always say that it will be wrong to leave Turkey alone with the actual situation. Clear statement. But Erdogan refuse help! So I love the 2 word "Erdogan Turkey"...2 words with a deep meaning!
AGREE! Maybe the "timing" is not so good....I don't know. Dolmabahce is only an example. Politics talk about middle east position or EU or whatever. The people are not involved in this.
Hi Leo, Turkey want to join the EU but not the Erdogan Turkey! Since the 90s you can export many thing from Turkey to Europe w/o extra customs but from EU to Turkey you have to calculate up to 100% to the original price. Not for everything but for many things. At the moment you have many things under the control of the government.....if not by law than controlled by private companies and everybody knows which is behind them. The young generation want to join EU, the modern people......they have no problem with the strict EU rules or the democratic system. The whole EU is a mix of different culture. I raised with German, Italian, Greece, Jewish, Spanish, Bosnian, Macedonian, Albanian, Greece.......people in Germany. A mix of different culture and religions and it works! A mix like this is world champion (football). It is all about mind setting!
Hello. The palace is nice, if we talk "only" about the palace or his architecture. Does Turkey need that? I don't think so. The Dolmabahce Palace is also great and "real".....unfortunately nobody take care about this historical palace. The daily cost of this new one is something around 1 Million TL!! If you ask people living in Turkey.....better don't ask them because they will tell you about all the corruption of the actual government and that all prices rises and nobody ask them and and and and. UPS....maybe I will be taken tomorrow and the prosecution: Terrorist! This is the fact of the present Turkey. It is not allowed to say anything against the actual government. Hmmm.....what is 1 M Turkish Lira every day if you hide hundreds of Million Euro in cash under your bed......and you have the power to change the actual legal system so nobody will convict you. It make no sense to compare "leader" from different countries when the countries don't have the same basis. The time in Germany I saw the government in Turkey as "modern", good...etc. Since I'm here I see how it works and the last 2-3 year the whole world can see it.
freemind73 Forum Posts (13)
RE: Getting rid of all the Muslims or they getting rid of all the Non Muslims
This is the first......the other one above is the second partHello and thank you for your welcome!
What I wrote was only that what I feel. I have no side or religion. I study the Bible and the Quran by myself. I read both of them in German and the Quran also in Turkish. But the point is the Quran or Muslims.
I think here that it is very important to find a good translation. A translation w/o interpretation!! Just a translation of the original. I read many translations and they are all different. If I remember right than somebody show here the Sura 2:191......I read it and in my eyes this isn't a correct translation BUT this is something what everybody could find out if they take the time to research.
I would recommend to read 2:191 together with 2:190 and in the same Sura you will find also (don't remember the vers):
"There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion."
The verse 190 and 191 is related to the defensive warfare, I think this is important to know:
2:190
Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors (If you start the fight).
2:191
And kill them wherever you overtake them (during the defensive war) and expel them from wherever they have expelled you, and fitnah is worse than killing. And do not fight them at al-Masjid al- Haram until they fight you there. But if they fight you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.
What is the meaning of Muslim......Muslim is one who submits to God.
How many of the Muslim people read the Quran w/o interpretation or read it at all and try to understand it? There is always an Imam or somebody who says "I know it, I will tell you, I know the real meaning...." and they listen to them. Can you imagine that????
So "There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion."....you only INVITE people to Islam w/o any force. This is the message.
Many thing were realated to that time...to deal with the actual moment. Many rules about marriage and so on.......as you mentioned, forget the past. I couldn't agree more with you on that statement!!
So in my eyes there is nothing written to KILL people who are not ISLAM.