FOR PALESTINE (744)
lonelycowboy101Caro, Michigan USA9 Threads 6 Polls 441 Postskanokwan: sawadee ka wonderworker,well since conrad666 is well known zionist maybe he can enlighten all of us wanting answers on this matter...is that asking too much conrad666??
Are you here for an educated discussion or just to start trouble . put in some useful information or stop calling other people names . 
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TrueBlue1986: Yea your right, Israel probably won't receive that much from the West. Israels build up of state infrastructure was heavily financed by the west though, from which Israel can then launch it's economy from, and then all the while you've got millions of jealous Arabs looking on.
Most of the early Israeli economy and infrastructure was built by favorable loans from W. Germany. Israel now has a good economy on it's own and very high tech too. Much of the funding we give them is due to their and our military cooperation in building weapons systems.------ This thread is Archived ------
oharmon: Still a bunch of nothing from you. Whatever! Most of your complaints of other's knowledge is EXACTLY the same method methos you use. Many of the others actually provide a complete picture than you though.
So, what is your opinion of the illegal settlements that Israel allows on Paletinian land? Are they legal or an attempt to grab land and why?
To be fair in your concern about settlements, one should at least read Yaccov Lozowick's blog. There, you can click on all manner of issues relating to Israel-especially the so-called "roadblocks" which are nothing of the sort.So, what is your opinion of the illegal settlements that Israel allows on Paletinian land? Are they legal or an attempt to grab land and why?
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oharmon: Offering retreat to certain borders while you are expanding deeper into Palestinian territory is just playing lipservice. This is used because they know those like you will see it as an extended hand when it is just a facade that will never become reality. Not because of the Palestinians, but because the Israeli's are not sincere and have shown this on many occassions.
Yes, the Israeli's have bigger rocks. That is solely because of the U.S. and is why we are so hated around the world. I do not see any real point to your statement.
You really have been thrown for a loop. Do you think Israel needs our weaponry to protect itself? It was the Soviet Union and then France who first sent arms to Israel, allowing them to survive the '48, '56 and '67 wars-Not us. Do the Arab "spokesmen" of Hamas, et al justify killing Russians and Frenchmen because of this? No. Palestine is an excuse for the Bin Laden's, Hussein's and Iranian leaders to deflect criticism of their regimes. The Israeli's pulled all their troops out of Gaza and have a small presence only in the West Bank-did that stop the rockets-No.Yes, the Israeli's have bigger rocks. That is solely because of the U.S. and is why we are so hated around the world. I do not see any real point to your statement.
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lonelycowboy101: Thanks
you bring a very realistic and educated opinion . I enjoy your post as I do conrad . Only conrad doesn't look near as pretty ( sorry conrad you loose hands down )
you bring a very realistic and educated opinion . I enjoy your post as I do conrad . Only conrad doesn't look near as pretty ( sorry conrad you loose hands down )
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BebeII: To be fair in your concern about settlements, one should at least read Yaccov Lozowick's blog. There, you can click on all manner of issues relating to Israel-especially the so-called "roadblocks" which are nothing of the sort.
Interesting that they have never heard of a Cordon Sanitaire!All of Eastern Europe and Central Asian Countries were used as one by the USSR,in the Cold War.
The Settlements serve a similar strategic purpose!
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Conrad73: Interesting that they have never heard of a Cordon Sanitaire!
All of Eastern Europe and Central Asian Countries were used as one by the USSR,in the Cold War.
The Settlements serve a similar strategic purpose!
Yes, there is much anger over the "wall" but in the years since it has been erected, suicide bombing is down to nil.All of Eastern Europe and Central Asian Countries were used as one by the USSR,in the Cold War.
The Settlements serve a similar strategic purpose!
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BebeII: To be fair in your concern about settlements, one should at least read Yaccov Lozowick's blog. There, you can click on all manner of issues relating to Israel-especially the so-called "roadblocks" which are nothing of the sort.
Yeah, I looked him up and didn't find the specific article you mentioned, but do get the gist of his stance. That stance is quite steadfast that Israel follows International Law to a 'T'. Hardly unbiased.
Here is an excerpt from Haaretz:
Last update - 11:06 01/02/2009
Secret Israeli database reveals full extent of illegal settlement
By Uri Blau
On Misheknot Haro'im Street in the Kochav Yaakov settlement, a young mother is carrying her two children home. "I've lived here for six years," she says, sounding surprised when told that her entire neighborhood was built upon private Palestinian land. "I know that there's some small area in the community that is in dispute, but I never heard that this is private land." Would she have built her home on this land had she known this from the start? "No," she answers. "I wouldn't have kicked anyone out of his home."
Not far away, at the settlement's large and unkempt trailer site, which is also built on private land, a young newlywed couple is walking to the bus stop: 21-year-old Aharon and his 19-year-old wife, Elisheva. They speak nearly perfect Hebrew despite having grown up in the United States and having settled permanently in Israel just a few months ago, after Aharon completed his army service in the ultra-Orthodox Nahal unit. Now he is studying computers at Machon Lev in Jerusalem. Asked why they chose to live here of all places, they list three reasons: It's close to Jerusalem, it's cheap and it's in the territories. In that order.
The couple pay their rent, NIS 550 a month, to the settlement secretariat. As new immigrants, they are still exempt from having to pay the arnona municipal tax. Aharon doesn't look upset when he hears that his trailer sits on private land. It doesn't really interest him. "I don't care what the state says, the Torah says that the entire Land of Israel is ours."
And the link to the full Israeli Government Database on the settlements. Unfortunately it is in Hebrew.
Click here to view the secret Defense Ministry database on illegal construction in the territories. It should be noted that the information is given in Hebrew
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BebeII: You really have been thrown for a loop. Do you think Israel needs our weaponry to protect itself? It was the Soviet Union and then France who first sent arms to Israel, allowing them to survive the '48, '56 and '67 wars-Not us. Do the Arab "spokesmen" of Hamas, et al justify killing Russians and Frenchmen because of this? No. Palestine is an excuse for the Bin Laden's, Hussein's and Iranian leaders to deflect criticism of their regimes. The Israeli's pulled all their troops out of Gaza and have a small presence only in the West Bank-did that stop the rockets-No.
Well Al-qaeda didn't exist then and it is the here and now that matters. Although our current policy did not just start yesterday. It started in the '70's and Israel has no need for help from France and Russia, since we give Israel the money to buy our weapons. What better deal can you find and our weapons are superior.
This would be why France Russia are not on Al-queda's agenda. Here is the facts from the here and now;
Israel and the United States
Up In Arms
By Frida Berrigan, New America Foundation
Foreign Policy in Focus | January 14, 2009
Arms Package
During the Bush administration, Israel received over $21 billion in U.S. security assistance, including $19 billion in direct military aid under the Pentagon's Foreign Military Financing (FMF) program. Through the FMF program, Israel remains the single largest recipient of U.S. military aid each year, which they use to purchase U.S. weapons.
The bulk of Israel's current arsenal is composed of equipment supplied under U.S. assistance programs. For example, Israel has 226 U.S.-supplied F-16 fighter and attack jets, over 700 M-60 tanks, 6,000 armored personnel carriers, and scores of transport planes, attack helicopters, utility and training aircraft, bombs, and tactical missiles of all kinds.
Hardware continues to flow in, despite the fact the Arms Export Control Act (AECA) requires nations receiving U.S. arms to certify the weapons are used for internal security and legitimate self-defense, and that their use doesn't lead to an escalation of conflict. During 2008 alone, the United States made over $22 billion in new arms sales offers to Israel, including a proposed deal for as many as 75 F-35 Joint Strike Fighters, worth up to $15.2 billion; nine heavy transport aircraft, worth up to $1.9 billion; four Littoral Combat Ships and related equipment, worth as much as $1.9 billion; and up to $1.3 billion in gasoline and jet aviation fuel.
One lone congressman -- Dennis Kucinich (D-OH) -- raised concerns about Israel's possible violations of the AECA. He hasn't had a response from the State Department. What use are our laws if they are not followed?
The last time the United States cut off military aid and weapons transfers to Israel was in 1981. During Israel's incursion into Lebanon, the Reagan administration cut off U.S. military aid and arms deliveries for 10 weeks while it investigated whether Israel was using weapons for "defensive purposes," as required under U.S. law.
The United States lifted the ban after Secretary of State Alexander Haig suggested that one could "argue until eternity" about whether a given use of force was offensive or defensive.
Since then, the United States has investigated Israel's use of U.S.-origin weapons in relationship to the AECA a few times, most notably in 2006, when Israel let loose on southern Lebanon with millions of cluster bomblets. The State Department Office of Defense Trade Controls investigated the situation, and informed Congress with preliminary findings indicating Israel may have violated agreements by using cluster bombs against civilian-populated areas. According to a January 2008 Congressional Research Service report, Israel denied violating agreements, saying that it had acted in self-defense, and a final determination wasn't made.
The issue was dropped and weapons transfers continued.
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oharmon: Yeah, I looked him up and didn't find the specific article you mentioned, but do get the gist of his stance. That stance is quite steadfast that Israel follows International Law to a 'T'. Hardly unbiased.
Here is an excerpt from Haaretz:
Last update - 11:06 01/02/2009
Secret Israeli database reveals full extent of illegal settlement
By Uri Blau On Misheknot Haro'im Street in the Kochav Yaakov settlement, a young mother is carrying her two children home. "I've lived here for six years," she says, sounding surprised when told that her entire neighborhood was built upon private Palestinian land. "I know that there's some small area in the community that is in dispute, but I never heard that this is private land." Would she have built her home on this land had she known this from the start? "No," she answers. "I wouldn't have kicked anyone out of his home."
Not far away, at the settlement's large and unkempt trailer site, which is also built on private land, a young newlywed couple is walking to the bus stop: 21-year-old Aharon and his 19-year-old wife, Elisheva. They speak nearly perfect Hebrew despite having grown up in the United States and having settled permanently in Israel just a few months ago, after Aharon completed his army service in the ultra-Orthodox Nahal unit. Now he is studying computers at Machon Lev in Jerusalem. Asked why they chose to live here of all places, they list three reasons: It's close to Jerusalem, it's cheap and it's in the territories. In that order.
The couple pay their rent, NIS 550 a month, to the settlement secretariat. As new immigrants, they are still exempt from having to pay the arnona municipal tax. Aharon doesn't look upset when he hears that his trailer sits on private land. It doesn't really interest him. "I don't care what the state says, the Torah says that the entire Land of Israel is ours."
And the link to the full Israeli Government Database on the settlements. Unfortunately it is in Hebrew.
Click here to view the secret Defense Ministry database on illegal construction in the territories. It should be noted that the information is given in Hebrew
Here is an excerpt from Haaretz:
Last update - 11:06 01/02/2009
Secret Israeli database reveals full extent of illegal settlement
By Uri Blau On Misheknot Haro'im Street in the Kochav Yaakov settlement, a young mother is carrying her two children home. "I've lived here for six years," she says, sounding surprised when told that her entire neighborhood was built upon private Palestinian land. "I know that there's some small area in the community that is in dispute, but I never heard that this is private land." Would she have built her home on this land had she known this from the start? "No," she answers. "I wouldn't have kicked anyone out of his home."
Not far away, at the settlement's large and unkempt trailer site, which is also built on private land, a young newlywed couple is walking to the bus stop: 21-year-old Aharon and his 19-year-old wife, Elisheva. They speak nearly perfect Hebrew despite having grown up in the United States and having settled permanently in Israel just a few months ago, after Aharon completed his army service in the ultra-Orthodox Nahal unit. Now he is studying computers at Machon Lev in Jerusalem. Asked why they chose to live here of all places, they list three reasons: It's close to Jerusalem, it's cheap and it's in the territories. In that order.
The couple pay their rent, NIS 550 a month, to the settlement secretariat. As new immigrants, they are still exempt from having to pay the arnona municipal tax. Aharon doesn't look upset when he hears that his trailer sits on private land. It doesn't really interest him. "I don't care what the state says, the Torah says that the entire Land of Israel is ours."
And the link to the full Israeli Government Database on the settlements. Unfortunately it is in Hebrew.
Click here to view the secret Defense Ministry database on illegal construction in the territories. It should be noted that the information is given in Hebrew
UPDATE:
Housing Minister: Netanyahu Hasn't Even Authorized One Building
(IsraelNN.com) Nov 11 09
'No tenders have been issued for building inside or outside the settlement blocs, nor in east Jerusalem,' Attias said
Despite all the talk about continued building in settlement blocs, Housing Minister Ariel Attias said Tuesday night that since becoming Prime Minister, Binyamin Netanyahu has not authorized construction of one new home in Judea, Samaria, or neighborhoods of Jerusalem over the green line. "No tenders have been issued for building inside or outside the settlement blocs, nor in eastern Jerusalem," Attias said in a television interview.
Attias' comments contradict statements by Netanyahu, who claims that hundreds of homes in the settlement blocs are under construction. According to Netanyahu, Israel has not implemented a building freeze in the settlement blocs, and intends to complete construction of some 3,000 housing units that have already been approved.
In an interview last week with the Al-Hura, an Arabic-language news station operated by the U.S. government, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said that Netanyahu had, in a recent meeting, agreed to halt all construction over the green line. He also agreed not to issue new permits for construction.
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Israel Leads in Making and Flying Unmanned Vehicles
by Yehezkel Laing
Nov 11 09(IsraelNN.com)
Israel has become a leader on the cutting edge of the unmanned vehicles industry. While it started with aerial vehicles, the country has expanded into developing advanced crafts for the skies, sea and the ground.
“He Who Saves One Life…”
Perhaps due to their concern for human life, it is mainly Western countries that have embraced the new unmanned vehicle technology - especially the U.S., Israel, the United Kingdom and France. The chief non-Western nation to embrace the technology is India, which receives most of its drones from Israel.
“We’re not going to send our soldiers out to be ambushed,” said one IDF General Staff officer. “It’s that simple. And the technology being developed and tested today allows us to both protect our troops and enhance our precision strike options, all at the same time. ‘No signature’ means no troops. If you’re in [Palestinian Authority-controlled] Tulkarm, you may see balloons or unmanned aerial vehicles, but you won’t see targets until we choose the time and place to attack.”
Multiple Advantages
Steve Rodan from Middle East Newsline, a Canada-based news agency reporting on military and security developments, writes that there are three main advantages to unmanned vehicles: “Firstly they help protect human life by taking humans out of the battlefield. Secondly, they never get tired. A regular pilot is often exhausted after a mission. The UAVs don’t have that problem. They never get weary and can be used repeatedly. Thirdly, they can be used for boring patrol duty where often nothing happens for 40-50 days and military personnel often lower their guards.”
And it’s not just airplanes. Israeli companies are also busy developing unmanned helicopters. Israel-based Steadicopter has produced an unmanned helicopter using patented technology that enables the chopper to stay stable while airborne. The developers say that the unmanned helicopter can be used wherever manned helicopters are currently used, for a smaller price and with no danger to human life. It can also take the place of unmanned fixed-wing aircraft.
Meanwhile, the unmanned aerial vehicle known as the Mule is being built by another Israeli company, Urban Aeronautics. It has the same attributes as a helicopter, but is more stable, cheaper, smaller and less noisy. The IDF Medical Corps is interested in the Mule in order to evacuate injured troops. Its narrow width is its most valuable benefit, given that the Mule is able to land in areas that would normally be unreachable to other vehicles. As of now, the Mule can hold two injured persons in a lying down position. In the future, there will be place for a chaperone as well.
(cont pg 2)
by Yehezkel Laing
Nov 11 09(IsraelNN.com)
Israel has become a leader on the cutting edge of the unmanned vehicles industry. While it started with aerial vehicles, the country has expanded into developing advanced crafts for the skies, sea and the ground.
“He Who Saves One Life…”
Perhaps due to their concern for human life, it is mainly Western countries that have embraced the new unmanned vehicle technology - especially the U.S., Israel, the United Kingdom and France. The chief non-Western nation to embrace the technology is India, which receives most of its drones from Israel.
“We’re not going to send our soldiers out to be ambushed,” said one IDF General Staff officer. “It’s that simple. And the technology being developed and tested today allows us to both protect our troops and enhance our precision strike options, all at the same time. ‘No signature’ means no troops. If you’re in [Palestinian Authority-controlled] Tulkarm, you may see balloons or unmanned aerial vehicles, but you won’t see targets until we choose the time and place to attack.”
Multiple Advantages
Steve Rodan from Middle East Newsline, a Canada-based news agency reporting on military and security developments, writes that there are three main advantages to unmanned vehicles: “Firstly they help protect human life by taking humans out of the battlefield. Secondly, they never get tired. A regular pilot is often exhausted after a mission. The UAVs don’t have that problem. They never get weary and can be used repeatedly. Thirdly, they can be used for boring patrol duty where often nothing happens for 40-50 days and military personnel often lower their guards.”
And it’s not just airplanes. Israeli companies are also busy developing unmanned helicopters. Israel-based Steadicopter has produced an unmanned helicopter using patented technology that enables the chopper to stay stable while airborne. The developers say that the unmanned helicopter can be used wherever manned helicopters are currently used, for a smaller price and with no danger to human life. It can also take the place of unmanned fixed-wing aircraft.
Meanwhile, the unmanned aerial vehicle known as the Mule is being built by another Israeli company, Urban Aeronautics. It has the same attributes as a helicopter, but is more stable, cheaper, smaller and less noisy. The IDF Medical Corps is interested in the Mule in order to evacuate injured troops. Its narrow width is its most valuable benefit, given that the Mule is able to land in areas that would normally be unreachable to other vehicles. As of now, the Mule can hold two injured persons in a lying down position. In the future, there will be place for a chaperone as well.
(cont pg 2)
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(pg 2)
On Land and Sea
Elbit Systems and Israel Aerospace Industries have branched out from the air to jointly develop the Guardium Unmanned Ground Vehicle (UGV). The Guardium UGV, which has been supplied to the IDF, is an advanced, third-generation UGV based on the Tomcar platform, which is an off-road, highly maneuverable vehicle for rough terrain and challenging topography. The vehicle features autonomous operation, allowing for precise steering across pre-defined routes programmed in its mission profile.
Guardium is capable of extended and continuous operation, and contains systems allowing for all-weather continuous transmission of visual, audio and target data back to the operator, without risk to human lives. It is also able to autonomously detect and avoid various types of obstacles, enabling real-time course corrections without the intervention of an operator.
As the first operationally deployed autonomous UGV system, Guardium is already a subject of great interest worldwide. It is also scheduled to take part in security missions along Israel's borders.
The Israeli Navy has also begun deploying a highly maneuverable unmanned craft called the Protector along the Mediterranean coast. The Protector is being used particularly off the Hamas-held Gaza Strip in the south, and outside Lebanon in the north where Hizbullah terrorists operate. Built by Rafael Advanced Systems, the Protector is one of the newest systems acquired by the Navy and can carry a wide range of payloads, including cameras, sensors and weapons. The ships are operated remotely from land stations and can carry out a wide range of missions while evading detection. "There are areas that the navy preferred to first enter in an unmanned capacity before a manned capacity," a navy official said.
Aeronautics Defense Systems manufactures SeaStar, an unmanned maritime operations vehicle featuring capabilities for the entire range of Naval and Coast Guard missions. The SeaStar is highly autonomous and can perform a wide variety of missions, and can even be operated in hazardous sea conditions.
Unmanned Vehicles to Protect Against Nuclear Threat
And the next big thing? Israel is reportedly developing a high-flying, long-endurance unmanned infrared sensor to assist in those critical minutes when it may be forced to spot incoming nuclear warheads amidst dozens of decoys sent to confound national missile defenses. A prototype of the long-range, high-resolution target-discrimination sensor has already been tested aboard a business jet under a classified Israeli-German program called “Bluebird.”
Don't believe that Israel is so dependent on the U.S. for their weapons. Israel will wind up supplying the world with their advanced weapons, not the other way around.
On Land and Sea
Elbit Systems and Israel Aerospace Industries have branched out from the air to jointly develop the Guardium Unmanned Ground Vehicle (UGV). The Guardium UGV, which has been supplied to the IDF, is an advanced, third-generation UGV based on the Tomcar platform, which is an off-road, highly maneuverable vehicle for rough terrain and challenging topography. The vehicle features autonomous operation, allowing for precise steering across pre-defined routes programmed in its mission profile.
Guardium is capable of extended and continuous operation, and contains systems allowing for all-weather continuous transmission of visual, audio and target data back to the operator, without risk to human lives. It is also able to autonomously detect and avoid various types of obstacles, enabling real-time course corrections without the intervention of an operator.
As the first operationally deployed autonomous UGV system, Guardium is already a subject of great interest worldwide. It is also scheduled to take part in security missions along Israel's borders.
The Israeli Navy has also begun deploying a highly maneuverable unmanned craft called the Protector along the Mediterranean coast. The Protector is being used particularly off the Hamas-held Gaza Strip in the south, and outside Lebanon in the north where Hizbullah terrorists operate. Built by Rafael Advanced Systems, the Protector is one of the newest systems acquired by the Navy and can carry a wide range of payloads, including cameras, sensors and weapons. The ships are operated remotely from land stations and can carry out a wide range of missions while evading detection. "There are areas that the navy preferred to first enter in an unmanned capacity before a manned capacity," a navy official said.
Aeronautics Defense Systems manufactures SeaStar, an unmanned maritime operations vehicle featuring capabilities for the entire range of Naval and Coast Guard missions. The SeaStar is highly autonomous and can perform a wide variety of missions, and can even be operated in hazardous sea conditions.
Unmanned Vehicles to Protect Against Nuclear Threat
And the next big thing? Israel is reportedly developing a high-flying, long-endurance unmanned infrared sensor to assist in those critical minutes when it may be forced to spot incoming nuclear warheads amidst dozens of decoys sent to confound national missile defenses. A prototype of the long-range, high-resolution target-discrimination sensor has already been tested aboard a business jet under a classified Israeli-German program called “Bluebird.”
Don't believe that Israel is so dependent on the U.S. for their weapons. Israel will wind up supplying the world with their advanced weapons, not the other way around.
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Post Author: LILLYLADY
"Don't believe that Israel is so dependent on the U.S. for their weapons. Israel will wind up supplying the world with their advanced weapons, not the other way around."
LMAO.
Yes, Israel has had some good ideas, but many of them just build on already existing technology. Mainly American. They still get and will continue to get the majority of their weapons from America for FREE!
As for Netanyahu and the Settlements. He has agreed to not allow new ones, but insists he must allow building for natural growth on existing ones.
Not very serious about peace. Also, Netanyahu is not the one whom approves building permits, so the article you mention is worthless. Also notice that the building minister contradicts what Netanyahu actually says himself.
If he is changing his stance, then hopefully talks can go forward. Time will tell and that is not set in stone yet, so I cannot give any credit out.
"Don't believe that Israel is so dependent on the U.S. for their weapons. Israel will wind up supplying the world with their advanced weapons, not the other way around."
LMAO.
Yes, Israel has had some good ideas, but many of them just build on already existing technology. Mainly American. They still get and will continue to get the majority of their weapons from America for FREE!
As for Netanyahu and the Settlements. He has agreed to not allow new ones, but insists he must allow building for natural growth on existing ones.
Not very serious about peace. Also, Netanyahu is not the one whom approves building permits, so the article you mention is worthless. Also notice that the building minister contradicts what Netanyahu actually says himself.
If he is changing his stance, then hopefully talks can go forward. Time will tell and that is not set in stone yet, so I cannot give any credit out.
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oharmon: Post Author: LILLYLADY
"Don't believe that Israel is so dependent on the U.S. for their weapons. Israel will wind up supplying the world with their advanced weapons, not the other way around."LMAO.
Yes, Israel has had some good ideas, but many of them just build on already existing technology. Mainly American. They still get and will continue to get the majority of their weapons from America for FREE!
As for Netanyahu and the Settlements. He has agreed to not allow new ones, but insists he must allow building for natural growth on existing ones.
Not very serious about peace. Also, Netanyahu is not the one whom approves building permits, so the article you mention is worthless. Also notice that the building minister contradicts what Netanyahu actually says himself.
If he is changing his stance, then hopefully talks can go forward. Time will tell and that is not set in stone yet, so I cannot give any credit out.
Sure gld that all the Palestinian Statements are carved in stone."Don't believe that Israel is so dependent on the U.S. for their weapons. Israel will wind up supplying the world with their advanced weapons, not the other way around."LMAO.
Yes, Israel has had some good ideas, but many of them just build on already existing technology. Mainly American. They still get and will continue to get the majority of their weapons from America for FREE!
As for Netanyahu and the Settlements. He has agreed to not allow new ones, but insists he must allow building for natural growth on existing ones.
Not very serious about peace. Also, Netanyahu is not the one whom approves building permits, so the article you mention is worthless. Also notice that the building minister contradicts what Netanyahu actually says himself.
If he is changing his stance, then hopefully talks can go forward. Time will tell and that is not set in stone yet, so I cannot give any credit out.
On your kind there "Ist Hopfen Und Malz Verloren".
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Conrad73: Sure gld that all the Palestinian Statements are carved in stone.
On your kind there "Ist Hopfen Und Malz Verloren".
On your kind there "Ist Hopfen Und Malz Verloren".
I have no dilussions. The problem does go both ways. I am just trying to show that the Israeli's are no more innocent than the Palestinians. The Israeli's are as much to blame for the current problem as anyone else. That is all!
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oharmon: I have no dilussions. The problem does go both ways. I am just trying to show that the Israeli's are no more innocent than the Palestinians. The Israeli's are as much to blame for the current problem as anyone else. That is all!
That is true, they both are contributing to the problems over there. And this is the problem, both sides are trying to show they are more "innocent" and the other side is more "aggressive/bad" and that doesn't matter, because they are both doing wrong.
Good post
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oharmon: Yeah, I looked him up and didn't find the specific article you mentioned, but do get the gist of his stance. That stance is quite steadfast that Israel follows International Law to a 'T'. Hardly unbiased.
Here is an excerpt from Haaretz:
Last update - 11:06 01/02/2009
Secret Israeli database reveals full extent of illegal settlement
By Uri Blau On Misheknot Haro'im Street in the Kochav Yaakov settlement, a young mother is carrying her two children home. "I've lived here for six years," she says, sounding surprised when told that her entire neighborhood was built upon private Palestinian land. "I know that there's some small area in the community that is in dispute, but I never heard that this is private land." Would she have built her home on this land had she known this from the start? "No," she answers. "I wouldn't have kicked anyone out of his home."
Not far away, at the settlement's large and unkempt trailer site, which is also built on private land, a young newlywed couple is walking to the bus stop: 21-year-old Aharon and his 19-year-old wife, Elisheva. They speak nearly perfect Hebrew despite having grown up in the United States and having settled permanently in Israel just a few months ago, after Aharon completed his army service in the ultra-Orthodox Nahal unit. Now he is studying computers at Machon Lev in Jerusalem. Asked why they chose to live here of all places, they list three reasons: It's close to Jerusalem, it's cheap and it's in the territories. In that order.
The couple pay their rent, NIS 550 a month, to the settlement secretariat. As new immigrants, they are still exempt from having to pay the arnona municipal tax. Aharon doesn't look upset when he hears that his trailer sits on private land. It doesn't really interest him. "I don't care what the state says, the Torah says that the entire Land of Israel is ours."
And the link to the full Israeli Government Database on the settlements. Unfortunately it is in Hebrew.
Click here to view the secret Defense Ministry database on illegal construction in the territories. It should be noted that the information is given in Hebrew
There is a list on the left side of the page which lists 'settlements' among many other hot topics. Keep in mind that some of these settlements are on land bought by the JNF-as such, they were BOUGHT nad are now OWNED by the Israeli gov. That gov. has OFTEN torn down illegal settlements put up by Jewish settlers as well.Here is an excerpt from Haaretz:
Last update - 11:06 01/02/2009
Secret Israeli database reveals full extent of illegal settlement
By Uri Blau On Misheknot Haro'im Street in the Kochav Yaakov settlement, a young mother is carrying her two children home. "I've lived here for six years," she says, sounding surprised when told that her entire neighborhood was built upon private Palestinian land. "I know that there's some small area in the community that is in dispute, but I never heard that this is private land." Would she have built her home on this land had she known this from the start? "No," she answers. "I wouldn't have kicked anyone out of his home."
Not far away, at the settlement's large and unkempt trailer site, which is also built on private land, a young newlywed couple is walking to the bus stop: 21-year-old Aharon and his 19-year-old wife, Elisheva. They speak nearly perfect Hebrew despite having grown up in the United States and having settled permanently in Israel just a few months ago, after Aharon completed his army service in the ultra-Orthodox Nahal unit. Now he is studying computers at Machon Lev in Jerusalem. Asked why they chose to live here of all places, they list three reasons: It's close to Jerusalem, it's cheap and it's in the territories. In that order.
The couple pay their rent, NIS 550 a month, to the settlement secretariat. As new immigrants, they are still exempt from having to pay the arnona municipal tax. Aharon doesn't look upset when he hears that his trailer sits on private land. It doesn't really interest him. "I don't care what the state says, the Torah says that the entire Land of Israel is ours."
And the link to the full Israeli Government Database on the settlements. Unfortunately it is in Hebrew.
Click here to view the secret Defense Ministry database on illegal construction in the territories. It should be noted that the information is given in Hebrew
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oharmon: Well Al-qaeda didn't exist then and it is the here and now that matters. Although our current policy did not just start yesterday. It started in the '70's and Israel has no need for help from France and Russia, since we give Israel the money to buy our weapons. What better deal can you find and our weapons are superior.
This would be why France Russia are not on Al-queda's agenda. Here is the facts from the here and now;
Israel and the United States
Up In Arms
By Frida Berrigan, New America Foundation
Foreign Policy in Focus | January 14, 2009
Arms Package
During the Bush administration, Israel received over $21 billion in U.S. security assistance, including $19 billion in direct military aid under the Pentagon's Foreign Military Financing (FMF) program. Through the FMF program, Israel remains the single largest recipient of U.S. military aid each year, which they use to purchase U.S. weapons.
The bulk of Israel's current arsenal is composed of equipment supplied under U.S. assistance programs. For example, Israel has 226 U.S.-supplied F-16 fighter and attack jets, over 700 M-60 tanks, 6,000 armored personnel carriers, and scores of transport planes, attack helicopters, utility and training aircraft, bombs, and tactical missiles of all kinds.
Hardware continues to flow in, despite the fact the Arms Export Control Act (AECA) requires nations receiving U.S. arms to certify the weapons are used for internal security and legitimate self-defense, and that their use doesn't lead to an escalation of conflict. During 2008 alone, the United States made over $22 billion in new arms sales offers to Israel, including a proposed deal for as many as 75 F-35 Joint Strike Fighters, worth up to $15.2 billion; nine heavy transport aircraft, worth up to $1.9 billion; four Littoral Combat Ships and related equipment, worth as much as $1.9 billion; and up to $1.3 billion in gasoline and jet aviation fuel.
One lone congressman -- Dennis Kucinich (D-OH) -- raised concerns about Israel's possible violations of the AECA. He hasn't had a response from the State Department. What use are our laws if they are not followed?
The last time the United States cut off military aid and weapons transfers to Israel was in 1981. During Israel's incursion into Lebanon, the Reagan administration cut off U.S. military aid and arms deliveries for 10 weeks while it investigated whether Israel was using weapons for "defensive purposes," as required under U.S. law.
The United States lifted the ban after Secretary of State Alexander Haig suggested that one could "argue until eternity" about whether a given use of force was offensive or defensive.
Since then, the United States has investigated Israel's use of U.S.-origin weapons in relationship to the AECA a few times, most notably in 2006, when Israel let loose on southern Lebanon with millions of cluster bomblets. The State Department Office of Defense Trade Controls investigated the situation, and informed Congress with preliminary findings indicating Israel may have violated agreements by using cluster bombs against civilian-populated areas. According to a January 2008 Congressional Research Service report, Israel denied violating agreements, saying that it had acted in self-defense, and a final determination wasn't made.
The issue was dropped and weapons transfers continued.
AQ as a group is merely a new name for an old movement, radical jihad being very old. The point is that OBL and his minions care nothing for Palestinians except to use them as an excuse to kill Westerners and muslims who don't agree with them-see how they treated Iraqi civilians while fighting there. AQ also has members fighting in Chechnya and spreads it's ideology in France, though for different reasons. Don't confuse a worldwide movement with sprcific policies-AQ is active in many countries for it's own purposes none of them having to do with Palestine.This would be why France Russia are not on Al-queda's agenda. Here is the facts from the here and now;
Israel and the United States
Up In Arms
By Frida Berrigan, New America Foundation
Foreign Policy in Focus | January 14, 2009
Arms Package
During the Bush administration, Israel received over $21 billion in U.S. security assistance, including $19 billion in direct military aid under the Pentagon's Foreign Military Financing (FMF) program. Through the FMF program, Israel remains the single largest recipient of U.S. military aid each year, which they use to purchase U.S. weapons.
The bulk of Israel's current arsenal is composed of equipment supplied under U.S. assistance programs. For example, Israel has 226 U.S.-supplied F-16 fighter and attack jets, over 700 M-60 tanks, 6,000 armored personnel carriers, and scores of transport planes, attack helicopters, utility and training aircraft, bombs, and tactical missiles of all kinds.
Hardware continues to flow in, despite the fact the Arms Export Control Act (AECA) requires nations receiving U.S. arms to certify the weapons are used for internal security and legitimate self-defense, and that their use doesn't lead to an escalation of conflict. During 2008 alone, the United States made over $22 billion in new arms sales offers to Israel, including a proposed deal for as many as 75 F-35 Joint Strike Fighters, worth up to $15.2 billion; nine heavy transport aircraft, worth up to $1.9 billion; four Littoral Combat Ships and related equipment, worth as much as $1.9 billion; and up to $1.3 billion in gasoline and jet aviation fuel.
One lone congressman -- Dennis Kucinich (D-OH) -- raised concerns about Israel's possible violations of the AECA. He hasn't had a response from the State Department. What use are our laws if they are not followed?
The last time the United States cut off military aid and weapons transfers to Israel was in 1981. During Israel's incursion into Lebanon, the Reagan administration cut off U.S. military aid and arms deliveries for 10 weeks while it investigated whether Israel was using weapons for "defensive purposes," as required under U.S. law.
The United States lifted the ban after Secretary of State Alexander Haig suggested that one could "argue until eternity" about whether a given use of force was offensive or defensive.
Since then, the United States has investigated Israel's use of U.S.-origin weapons in relationship to the AECA a few times, most notably in 2006, when Israel let loose on southern Lebanon with millions of cluster bomblets. The State Department Office of Defense Trade Controls investigated the situation, and informed Congress with preliminary findings indicating Israel may have violated agreements by using cluster bombs against civilian-populated areas. According to a January 2008 Congressional Research Service report, Israel denied violating agreements, saying that it had acted in self-defense, and a final determination wasn't made.
The issue was dropped and weapons transfers continued.
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BebeII: AQ as a group is merely a new name for an old movement, radical jihad being very old. The point is that OBL and his minions care nothing for Palestinians except to use them as an excuse to kill Westerners and muslims who don't agree with them-see how they treated Iraqi civilians while fighting there. AQ also has members fighting in Chechnya and spreads it's ideology in France, though for different reasons. Don't confuse a worldwide movement with sprcific policies-AQ is active in many countries for it's own purposes none of them having to do with Palestine.
There is alot of truth in what you say, but I think you are a bit short sighted. As for our image, I am not just speaking of Al-Qaeda, but in the eyes of the world as a whole.
Al-Qaeda does need to be stopped, because even though a few of their causes may be noble, most are not.
It looks like Obama is holding Israel more accountable than all his predecessors and that is what we need to do. I hope he goes far enough.
As long as Israel forces Palestinians to live as lesser people, they deserve the rocket strikes.
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BebeII: There is a list on the left side of the page which lists 'settlements' among many other hot topics. Keep in mind that some of these settlements are on land bought by the JNF-as such, they were BOUGHT nad are now OWNED by the Israeli gov. That gov. has OFTEN torn down illegal settlements put up by Jewish settlers as well.
Yeah, again not much better than lip service. Those were a publicity campaign and did not address the problem. It is still a problem and MANY Illegal Settlements exist and are protected by the Israeli Government. So it all meant nothing.
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