Christians... There Is NO RAPTURE!!! (58)
tainogirl: Ah, oh I see so this whole rapture thing was really just a clever way to see which men would be worth catching - well we all got to try something.
Very clever indeed, don't you think?
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HealthyLiving: Very clever indeed, don't you think?
Hiya HL!
Sorry to post in your thread, but I just felt like saying 'hi' - I should be flying to the UK today but decided to cancel my flight at the last moment and changed it for a flight to Germany instead next month.............. and then I didn't sleep well and got up at 5.30 a.m. and here I am now wondering if I did the right thing!
November is going to be weird!
I fly to Barcelona in Spain for a week on 29th of this month then get back here on 5th November, then fly to Germany from the 7th to 9th (just a quick visit to say 'hi' to a good friend), then off to the Holy Land on 15th November until the 30th.... I've never been to Israel before - should be 'interesting'!
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RobertC2: Hiya HL!
Sorry to post in your thread, but I just felt like saying 'hi' - I should be flying to the UK today but decided to cancel my flight at the last moment and changed it for a flight to Germany instead next month.............. and then I didn't sleep well and got up at 5.30 a.m. and here I am now wondering if I did the right thing!
November is going to be weird!
I fly to Barcelona in Spain for a week on 29th of this month then get back here on 5th November, then fly to Germany from the 7th to 9th (just a quick visit to say 'hi' to a good friend), then off to the Holy Land on 15th November until the 30th.... I've never been to Israel before - should be 'interesting'!
Sorry to post in your thread, but I just felt like saying 'hi' - I should be flying to the UK today but decided to cancel my flight at the last moment and changed it for a flight to Germany instead next month.............. and then I didn't sleep well and got up at 5.30 a.m. and here I am now wondering if I did the right thing!
November is going to be weird!
I fly to Barcelona in Spain for a week on 29th of this month then get back here on 5th November, then fly to Germany from the 7th to 9th (just a quick visit to say 'hi' to a good friend), then off to the Holy Land on 15th November until the 30th.... I've never been to Israel before - should be 'interesting'!
Robert, You are a HOOT!
You could have written that in an email.
I'm not even gonna ask...
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HealthyLiving: Psssssst!
"In my historical research of the Church over the last 35 years I have found an earlier record of the rapture doctrine than Margaret McDonald and the Irvingites. If you will check the counter reformation move of Papal Rome in the 16th century after Martin Luther nailed his 95 thesis to the church door in Wittenberg on October 31, 1517. You will find that Pope Leo X authorized three Jesuit Priests to reinterpret Daniel's 70 weeks of prophecy; the Book of Revelation; and Ezekiel. The goal of these jesuits was to take the heat of the reformation away from the papacy. The three Jesuits were: 1. Francisco Ribera (1537-1591) of Salamanca - futurism/rapturists 2. Luis de Alcazar (1554-1621) of Seville - praeterism 3. Cardinal Roberto Bellarmine (1542-1621) - followed Ribera's school of thought The futurists rapture doctrine originated and was submitted by Francisco Ribera in 1585. His Apocalyptic Commentary was on the grand points of Babylon and Anti-christ which we now call the futurists or rapture doctrine. Ribera's published work was called "In Sacram Beati Ionnis Apostoli & Evangelistate Apocoalypsin Commentari (Lugduni 1593). You can still find these writings in the Bodleian Library in Oxford England."
Read the rest... much more interesting information!
"In my historical research of the Church over the last 35 years I have found an earlier record of the rapture doctrine than Margaret McDonald and the Irvingites. If you will check the counter reformation move of Papal Rome in the 16th century after Martin Luther nailed his 95 thesis to the church door in Wittenberg on October 31, 1517. You will find that Pope Leo X authorized three Jesuit Priests to reinterpret Daniel's 70 weeks of prophecy; the Book of Revelation; and Ezekiel. The goal of these jesuits was to take the heat of the reformation away from the papacy. The three Jesuits were: 1. Francisco Ribera (1537-1591) of Salamanca - futurism/rapturists 2. Luis de Alcazar (1554-1621) of Seville - praeterism 3. Cardinal Roberto Bellarmine (1542-1621) - followed Ribera's school of thought The futurists rapture doctrine originated and was submitted by Francisco Ribera in 1585. His Apocalyptic Commentary was on the grand points of Babylon and Anti-christ which we now call the futurists or rapture doctrine. Ribera's published work was called "In Sacram Beati Ionnis Apostoli & Evangelistate Apocoalypsin Commentari (Lugduni 1593). You can still find these writings in the Bodleian Library in Oxford England."
Read the rest... much more interesting information!
Ops... do you guys smell smoke?
I think Cro just got burned.
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I heard something from an incredible resourceful Messianic Jew I met named Joel Young (http://www.forhisglory.org/). He was asked what he thought about the rapture and he replied, rather emphatically, "The tribulation is not for the church, though there will be some left behind who were not ready as stated in first John 2:28, but the tribulation is for my people."
It made me think again about all those scriptures and how easily they can be manipulated toward one side or the other. But I like what Keith Green suggested about the rapture. He said pray for pre, but prepare for post.
It made me think again about all those scriptures and how easily they can be manipulated toward one side or the other. But I like what Keith Green suggested about the rapture. He said pray for pre, but prepare for post.
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I swear on a stack of holy bibles, if I can stop laughing for maybe 5 minutes or so, I will post a serious comment regarding your blatant blasphemy.
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MikeHD:
"The tribulation is not for the church, though there will be some left behind who were not ready as stated in first John 2:28, but the tribulation is for my people."
"The tribulation is not for the church, though there will be some left behind who were not ready as stated in first John 2:28, but the tribulation is for my people."
He's partly right.
It won't be a case of christians being "left behind" because there is no pre-trib rapture to start with.
"Immediately after the tribulation" Christ returns and gathers together His elect.
So we'll all be here fur the tribulation.
The only places in the Bible where the tribulation is described are some vague references in Daniel, Mathew 24, Lk 21, and various passages of Revelations.
Mathew 24 and Luke 21 represent Christ's own explanation about the tribulation so they are the best source.
In both passages, the tribulation is only described as affecting Jerusalem and Judea, not the whole world.
Mt 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet... 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: ... 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Sounds like it's only in Judea right?
Same in Luke.
Lu 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
And Revelations shows a similar gathering of worldly armies in the same place (Judea) and at the same time (just before Christ's return).
Re 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
There is no suggestion in any passage that the slaughter known as the "great trubulation" will be worldwide.
Only in Judea.
So, although there will be plagues and disasters and troubles worldwide, the intense slaughter known as the Great Tribulation, will occur only in Judea, not worldwide.
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Why the pre-trib rapture became popular.
There is some debate as to how exactly the pre-trib rapture came into being, but one thing is clear. It was never standard Christian doctrine at any time.
Darby popularized it only within the Plymouth Brethren, which was really only a few churches.
And then it was forgotten again for nearly a century until C.I. Scofield, convicted bigamist, confessed deserter of his wife and child, convicted conman, etc incorporated it into the most disastrous twisting of scripture in the history of religion, the Scofield Bible.
Darby never even tried to claim that his wierd doctrines were scriptural. He said he got them by direct prophecy.
A hundred years later Scofield, wrested both Darby's doctrines and the scriptures to invent supposed scriptural support a very specific and very evil agenda. Christian Zionism.
There is some debate as to how exactly the pre-trib rapture came into being, but one thing is clear. It was never standard Christian doctrine at any time.
Darby popularized it only within the Plymouth Brethren, which was really only a few churches.
And then it was forgotten again for nearly a century until C.I. Scofield, convicted bigamist, confessed deserter of his wife and child, convicted conman, etc incorporated it into the most disastrous twisting of scripture in the history of religion, the Scofield Bible.
Darby never even tried to claim that his wierd doctrines were scriptural. He said he got them by direct prophecy.
A hundred years later Scofield, wrested both Darby's doctrines and the scriptures to invent supposed scriptural support a very specific and very evil agenda. Christian Zionism.
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A good thing to read, for anyone really interested in this subject is a small brochure called "Why I left Scofieldism".
You can read it online here:
You can read it online here:
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The word rapture is not in The Bible; the concept is.
I would not recommend bothering with this guy's blogs, or his videos.
He's making his argument against a strawman, who has not taken their position from the what the scriptures say.
But, is repeating 501c3 government ordained tax free churchianity rehtoric.
Christians may not agree on when we are changed, so what?
The Bible is very clear on it.
It happens immediatly after the tribulation, at THE LAST TRUMP, AFTER THE DEAD IN CHRIST ARE RAISED.
You might want to pay close attention to the words, TRUMP, TRUMPET, LAST TRUMP, SEVEN TRUMPETS, SEVEN ANGELS, SEVENTH ANGEL, GATHER, CHANGED, CAUGHT UP, MYSTERY; AND, THE DEAD BEING RAISED.
Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his ANGELS with a great SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and THEY SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a MYSTERY; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be CHANGED,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST TRUMP: for the TRUMPET shall sound, and the DEAD SHALL BE RAISED incorruptible, and WE SHALL BE CHANGED.
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the TRUMP of God: and the DEAD IN CHRIST RISE FIRST:
17 Then WE which are alive and remain SHALL BE CAUGHT UP together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Revelation 8:2 And I saw the SEVEN ANGELS which stood before God; and to them were given SEVEN TRUMPETS.
Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the SEVENTH ANGEL, when he shall BEGIN TO SOUND, the MYSTERY of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
FIRST THE DEAD IN CHRIST ARE RAISED...
Revelation 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their DEAD BODIES three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they STOOD UPON THEIR FEET; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. AND THEY ASCENDED UP TO HEAVEN in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
THE SEVENTH ANGEL SOUNDS THE LAST TRUMP...
Revelation 11:15 And the SEVENTH ANGEL SOUNDED; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give REWARD UNTO THY SERVANTS THE PROPHETS, AND TO THE SAINTS, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
I would not recommend bothering with this guy's blogs, or his videos.
He's making his argument against a strawman, who has not taken their position from the what the scriptures say.
But, is repeating 501c3 government ordained tax free churchianity rehtoric.
Christians may not agree on when we are changed, so what?
The Bible is very clear on it.
It happens immediatly after the tribulation, at THE LAST TRUMP, AFTER THE DEAD IN CHRIST ARE RAISED.
You might want to pay close attention to the words, TRUMP, TRUMPET, LAST TRUMP, SEVEN TRUMPETS, SEVEN ANGELS, SEVENTH ANGEL, GATHER, CHANGED, CAUGHT UP, MYSTERY; AND, THE DEAD BEING RAISED.
Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his ANGELS with a great SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and THEY SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a MYSTERY; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be CHANGED,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST TRUMP: for the TRUMPET shall sound, and the DEAD SHALL BE RAISED incorruptible, and WE SHALL BE CHANGED.
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the TRUMP of God: and the DEAD IN CHRIST RISE FIRST:
17 Then WE which are alive and remain SHALL BE CAUGHT UP together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Revelation 8:2 And I saw the SEVEN ANGELS which stood before God; and to them were given SEVEN TRUMPETS.
Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the SEVENTH ANGEL, when he shall BEGIN TO SOUND, the MYSTERY of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
FIRST THE DEAD IN CHRIST ARE RAISED...
Revelation 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their DEAD BODIES three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they STOOD UPON THEIR FEET; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. AND THEY ASCENDED UP TO HEAVEN in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
THE SEVENTH ANGEL SOUNDS THE LAST TRUMP...
Revelation 11:15 And the SEVENTH ANGEL SOUNDED; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give REWARD UNTO THY SERVANTS THE PROPHETS, AND TO THE SAINTS, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
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AND, THE MYSTERY OF GOD, IS FINISHED
Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the SEVENTH ANGEL, when he shall BEGIN TO SOUND, the MYSTERY of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his SERVANTS THE PROPHETS.
1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a MYSTERY; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST TRUMP: for THE TRUMPET SHALL SOUND, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the SEVENTH ANGEL, when he shall BEGIN TO SOUND, the MYSTERY of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his SERVANTS THE PROPHETS.
1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a MYSTERY; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST TRUMP: for THE TRUMPET SHALL SOUND, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
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anonymous1: AND, THE MYSTERY OF GOD, IS FINISHED
Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the SEVENTH ANGEL, when he shall BEGIN TO SOUND, the MYSTERY of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his SERVANTS THE PROPHETS.
1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a MYSTERY; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST TRUMP: for THE TRUMPET SHALL SOUND, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
.....and having finished his Writing,John lit another Spliff!Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the SEVENTH ANGEL, when he shall BEGIN TO SOUND, the MYSTERY of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his SERVANTS THE PROPHETS.
1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a MYSTERY; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST TRUMP: for THE TRUMPET SHALL SOUND, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
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In response to: I heard something from an incredible resourceful Messianic Jew I met named Joel Young (http://www.forhisglory.org/). He was asked what he thought about the rapture and he replied, rather emphatically, "The tribulation is not for the church, though there will be some left behind who were not ready as stated in first John 2:28, but the tribulation is for my people."
I am an Irish Messianic Jew, and we are as divided as the Protestants about what we believe.
I havemuch to say about this subject but I am to tireds tonight, but I will say:
Adonai's word says ALL have to go the the tribulation but not ALL have to go through the BOWL Judgments.
The tribulation is for the 'Israel of Adonai' [not to be confused with the House of Israel (which were NOT all Jews)] found in Gal 6:16. Because of the 'coming in' of the Gentiles, Paul clearly tells us that the 'Israel of YHWH' is now the Jews and the Believing Gentiles combined.
Blessings
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You know Healthy living, seems you like arguments, dont you?..... .....
Well, one thing i can tell you on this, Matured Christians, DONT LIKE ARGUMENTS AS WE DONT ARGUE ON OTHERS BELIEF.....
...
Like you, you have your own belief too, right? and so respect others beleif as well.....If you want to start this topic just to look for arguments of what others belief, then i guess you can just argue to yourself.....LOL..... ....
If you dont believe in rapture, then respect others who believe on it.....and dont look for arguments as what you have stated in here as the purpose why you started this thread...
We can discuss things but NOT to argue.....
....ok have a nice day to you health and observe respect and stay calm....
.....Well, one thing i can tell you on this, Matured Christians, DONT LIKE ARGUMENTS AS WE DONT ARGUE ON OTHERS BELIEF.....
...Like you, you have your own belief too, right? and so respect others beleif as well.....If you want to start this topic just to look for arguments of what others belief, then i guess you can just argue to yourself.....LOL.....
....If you dont believe in rapture, then respect others who believe on it.....and dont look for arguments as what you have stated in here as the purpose why you started this thread...
We can discuss things but NOT to argue.....
....ok have a nice day to you health and observe respect and stay calm....------ This thread is Archived ------
lovingheart2: You know Healthy living, seems you like arguments, dont you?..... .....
Well, one thing i can tell you on this, Matured Christians, DONT LIKE ARGUMENTS AS WE DONT ARGUE ON OTHERS BELIEF..... ...
Like you, you have your own belief too, right? and so respect others beleif as well.....If you want to start this topic just to look for arguments of what others belief, then i guess you can just argue to yourself.....LOL..... ....
If you dont believe in rapture, then respect others who believe on it.....and dont look for arguments as what you have stated in here as the purpose why you started this thread...
We can discuss things but NOT to argue..... ....ok have a nice day to you health and observe respect and stay calm....
Seems you started the Argument!Well, one thing i can tell you on this, Matured Christians, DONT LIKE ARGUMENTS AS WE DONT ARGUE ON OTHERS BELIEF..... ...
Like you, you have your own belief too, right? and so respect others beleif as well.....If you want to start this topic just to look for arguments of what others belief, then i guess you can just argue to yourself.....LOL..... ....
If you dont believe in rapture, then respect others who believe on it.....and dont look for arguments as what you have stated in here as the purpose why you started this thread...
We can discuss things but NOT to argue..... ....ok have a nice day to you health and observe respect and stay calm....
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Conrad73: .....and having finished his Writing,John lit another Spliff!
Hi Conrad,
It's nice to see that your inability to discuss a topic, never keeps you from posting.
Don't worry about the Alzheimer's Disease; we're all pulling for you.
No matter how senile, or off topic you get, we still love you.
Aloha
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anonymous1: Hi Conrad, It's nice to see that your inability to discuss a topic, never keeps you from posting.
Don't worry about the Alzheimer's Disease; we're all pulling for you.
No matter how senile, or off topic you get, we still love you.
Aloha
If you'd enquired about the Island John was writing his Stuff,you'd be surprised the kind of psychoactive Substances that could be found there,Mr. NoName!Don't worry about the Alzheimer's Disease; we're all pulling for you.
No matter how senile, or off topic you get, we still love you.
Aloha
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Please don't get the religious people excited it will take up too much of our time 
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In response to: Let John explain!
He's absolutely correct!
Watch here:
do you agree or not?
If you have not watched this video and believe there will be a rapture of the church, your argument will be ignored.
I am allowing this video to be the standard of this argument, the plum line, if you will.
We will then judge on the preponderance of the evidence (who is the most believable).
Also, please play NICE! No name calling or rudeness!
Athiests, feel free to comment, but this should not concern you really, as you are not part of the church of God, since you do not believe in him.
I put this up for discussion for the Christian believers.
HL
He's absolutely correct!
Watch here:
do you agree or not?
If you have not watched this video and believe there will be a rapture of the church, your argument will be ignored.
I am allowing this video to be the standard of this argument, the plum line, if you will.
We will then judge on the preponderance of the evidence (who is the most believable).
Also, please play NICE! No name calling or rudeness!
Athiests, feel free to comment, but this should not concern you really, as you are not part of the church of God, since you do not believe in him.
I put this up for discussion for the Christian believers.
HL
Dear HL I grew up in a lovely catholic home, with great parents and I am sure it did some good to me. However fanatism of any religion is bad, so I am asking myself:
Which one is the BEST RELIGION?
What ever makes you a better person!
WITH religion or WITHOUT religion.
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If I find a mate here on CS, it would be very important that we be like minded in our spiritual beliefs.
Just a weeding process!
Ah, oh I see so this whole rapture thing was really just a clever way to see which men would be worth catching - well we all got to try something.