Mass killing the Mehsud tribes ( Archived) (61)

Oct 27, 2009 9:52 PM CST Mass killing the Mehsud tribes
scousedon
scousedonscousedonLiverpool, Cheshire, England UK14 Threads 4 Polls 1,643 Posts
Your arguement has a lot of validity. But we are talking about a country that has nuclear weapons, and the west for the sake of international security cannot let Pakistan become some kind of lawless rogue state. This is fundamental to the stability of the whole region and beyond.
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Oct 27, 2009 10:06 PM CST Mass killing the Mehsud tribes
Laura25
Laura25Laura25Somewhere, New York USA50 Threads 6 Polls 8,178 Posts
bollywood: I have posted a thread in this forum long back condemning these attacks...

..



Laura25:
As OP said, the news is coming from tribal area Waziristan. The Islamic militants in Waziristan are known to have close affiliations with Taliban.

Waziristan is considered to be a haven for al-Qaeda fighters. These tribal militants call their organization "The Taliban" or "Pakistani Taliban"
.


"Mass killing the Mehsud tribes" is this thread topic, the author is known to be hiding behind a Georgian girl photo and s/he is always coming into these forums with one purpose only...

So before you go any farther than "I have posted a thread in this forum long back condemning these attacks..." can you please tell as which exactly events we are disscusing now?

So far in this thread we are dealing with an absurd one-sided so-called news coverage.



Hello bollywood wave
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Oct 27, 2009 10:14 PM CST Mass killing the Mehsud tribes
Laura25
Laura25Laura25Somewhere, New York USA50 Threads 6 Polls 8,178 Posts
P.S. Yep, that's what I meant... roll eyes
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Oct 28, 2009 12:09 PM CST Mass killing the Mehsud tribes
Even more interesting,is that India and Georgia most of the time show up together!confused confused confused
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Oct 28, 2009 12:41 PM CST Mass killing the Mehsud tribes
bollywood
bollywoodbollywoodTRIVANDRUM, Kerala India53 Threads 2 Polls 973 Posts
alexey8: Very interesting, I guess Afghan history starts in 2002 for you.
Forget about what happened before that. BECAUSE, if you took a look before 2002, you might have noticed that Afghanistan had been in a Civil War since before the Soviets enter in the 1970s. The government that was overthrown (and backed by the Soviets, the reason why the Soviets entered Afghanistan) became known as the Northern Alliance, which till this day has been fighting the Taliban. I will say that the fight escalated when the Soviets were present, and since the US has been present. But, there was always fighting going on in Afghanistan. So, to say that Afghanistan would be a peaceful prosperous country if it wasn't for US presence, is ridiculous. There would still be a civil war going on and people still dying...the difference...there wouldn't be media coverage.


I appreaciate your points . You must understand one point here . None of these central asian contires are a single entity thoug politically you call them a nation . for expample wazirasthan is not actually in Pakistan technically , they are a independent place with thier own law systsm, Baluchistan is an ethinic area spread beteween Iran and Pakistan ,in Afgan itself there are marked division of gerography between various ethnic grops , like pashtoons ,Usbecks etc . In india too we have a lot of places where this ethnicity matters . trouble begins when external forces ,including the soviet union takes undue advantage of this devide and pitch people againgt people . Meshuds are not going to agree with a Pakistani govermtn with more Punjabis in that . Usbeks in Afgan is not going to agree with a Pashtoon goverment and so on . It works only we could form a coilation of ethnic groups . a federation like what we have in India . No external govermtns can "install" a so called"western democratic system there." this war you are waging to impose your value systems is definlity going to fail for sure . its better for peole on both the sides if the west get out of this place.
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Oct 28, 2009 1:20 PM CST Mass killing the Mehsud tribes
alexey8
alexey8alexey8Tel Aviv, Israel10 Threads 4 Polls 1,496 Posts
bollywood: I appreaciate your points . You must understand one point here . None of these central asian contires are a single entity thoug politically you call them a nation . for expample wazirasthan is not actually in Pakistan technically , they are a independent place with thier own law systsm, Baluchistan is an ethinic area spread beteween Iran and Pakistan ,in Afgan itself there are marked division of gerography between various ethnic grops , like pashtoons ,Usbecks etc . In india too we have a lot of places where this ethnicity matters . trouble begins when external forces ,including the soviet union takes undue advantage of this devide and pitch people againgt people . Meshuds are not going to agree with a Pakistani govermtn with more Punjabis in that . Usbeks in Afgan is not going to agree with a Pashtoon goverment and so on . It works only we could form a coilation of ethnic groups . a federation like what we have in India . No external govermtns can "install" a so called"western democratic system there." this war you are waging to impose your value systems is definlity going to fail for sure . its better for peole on both the sides if the west get out of this place.


Now this I can really agree with you, good post. Unfortunately this is true the war will most likely fail...and its because Afghanistan and many of these countries are really tribal groups that are being called one nation. And USA is making the same mistakes as the Soviet Union did.
Your post makes good points, and I liked this post. As one of my friends said "America is the greatest country in the world, FOR Americans" What works in USA, doesn't necessarily mean it will work everywhere.
The problem with the war is that it needs a completely new strategy and needs to be looked at from a completely different angle. Its very complicated.
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Oct 28, 2009 1:30 PM CST Mass killing the Mehsud tribes
alexey8
alexey8alexey8Tel Aviv, Israel10 Threads 4 Polls 1,496 Posts
bollywood: I appreaciate your points . You must understand one point here . None of these central asian contires are a single entity thoug politically you call them a nation . for expample wazirasthan is not actually in Pakistan technically , they are a independent place with thier own law systsm, Baluchistan is an ethinic area spread beteween Iran and Pakistan ,in Afgan itself there are marked division of gerography between various ethnic grops , like pashtoons ,Usbecks etc . In india too we have a lot of places where this ethnicity matters . trouble begins when external forces ,including the soviet union takes undue advantage of this devide and pitch people againgt people . Meshuds are not going to agree with a Pakistani govermtn with more Punjabis in that . Usbeks in Afgan is not going to agree with a Pashtoon goverment and so on . It works only we could form a coilation of ethnic groups . a federation like what we have in India . No external govermtns can "install" a so called"western democratic system there." this war you are waging to impose your value systems is definlity going to fail for sure . its better for peole on both the sides if the west get out of this place.


Sorry forgot to write though...that the US and UK can not just leave, because unfortunately the Taliban and Al Queada are still a threat. Especially with recent activities in Pakistan.

Remember Pakistan has nuclear weapons, and if the Taliban overthrew the government...you can pretty much be guarenteed that there would a extremely harsh response from USA, UK, and also Israel. The fear of insurgents or "terrorist" gaining access to Nuclear material or weapons is one of the biggest fears and also threats to National Security of US, the West and the World. And, considering India and Pakistan's problems with Kashmir, it would also be a security risk for India, considering they would be concerned about possible terrorist gaining access to nuclear material that can be used on India.

Pakistan has realized this...and that is a big reason to why Pakistani Forces are fighting so hard against the Taliban. If the loose their country to the Taliban, I would hate to see this or even say it...but they would probably have a nuclear strike hit their country.
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Oct 28, 2009 1:41 PM CST Mass killing the Mehsud tribes
Laura25
Laura25Laura25Somewhere, New York USA50 Threads 6 Polls 8,178 Posts
Conrad73: Even more interesting,is that India and Georgia most of the time show up together!

grin comparing IPs would be hmmm
interesting... lol

conversing laugh daydream peace
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Oct 28, 2009 1:43 PM CST Mass killing the Mehsud tribes
Laura25
Laura25Laura25Somewhere, New York USA50 Threads 6 Polls 8,178 Posts
alexey8: Very interesting, I guess Afghan history starts in 2002 for you.
Forget about what happened before that. BECAUSE, if you took a look before 2002, you might have noticed that Afghanistan had been in a Civil War since before the Soviets enter in the 1970s.

...

..., there was always fighting going on in Afghanistan. So, to say that Afghanistan would be a peaceful prosperous country if it wasn't for US presence, is ridiculous. There would still be a civil war going on and people still dying...


Exactly, Alexey! thumbs up

Also, OP's claim that "100s of innocent Mehsud tribal villagers are being killed by US" is not just an absurd lie but yet another malicious (and very transparent) attempt to stir hard feelings.

The fact is, in 2001, the Taliban and al-Qaeda entered into FATA region, sheltered their forces in there the began crossing the border into Afghanistan, attacking military and police... etc., etc., ...

Ever heard of this, OP? \/


Ans if anyone really cares (which I doubt) here is some on their doh civil war situation:


Back to connecting with singles... conversing care to join us, OP? laugh roll eyes wave
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Oct 28, 2009 9:23 PM CST Mass killing the Mehsud tribes
Tbilisigal
TbilisigalTbilisigalTbilisi, Georgia4 Threads 83 Posts
Laura25: Exactly, Alexey!

Also, OP's claim that "100s of innocent Mehsud tribal villagers are being killed by US" is not just an absurd lie but yet another malicious (and very transparent) attempt to stir hard feelings.

The fact is, in 2001, the Taliban and al-Qaeda entered into FATA region, sheltered their forces in there the began crossing the border into Afghanistan, attacking military and police... etc., etc., ...

Ever heard of this, OP? \/


Ans if anyone really cares (which I doubt) here is some on their civil war situation:


Back to connecting with singles... care to join us, OP?


Laura . I guess it botheres you who I am than what I post here . You accuse me of hiding behind someone eles picture ..because I am afraid that you will bomb my country because I speak aloud ? what a joke .? where in you are not even brave enough to put a human being picture in your profile . you live "somewhere " so you a scam or me ? Laura I wll be the last one to get out of this forum by bullying .so save that effort for someone else .

DO yo konw any Idea about FATA ? other than copy past a few links ? what good those stupid posters going to do than a lip service ?.I have seen a lot of candle vigil and posters whenever something like this happens . It end up in some posh galary and earn more money for that designer .thats all it serve . sheer hypocracy. You must go and see the Amnesty site to see to get some idea about whats going on there even though its largly sensored . I can pick up a lot of links to prove whatever I want ..its not going to solve anyting .
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Oct 29, 2009 11:58 AM CST Mass killing the Mehsud tribes
bollywood: I have posted a thread in this forum long back condemning these attacks.US is using Pakistanis to wage their war.You cannot brand the entire geography as terrorists and send drons to crush them .Most of the "terrorist" killed by the drons are mearly villagers attending some religios functions or marriage parties and are women and childern.This is one of the sever humanitarian situation in the world history . A population is being slaughered silently by their own goverment and its ally. Most of these killing are either covered up or was turned down by the western media. Just because some one is in uniform you cannot legitimate their crualities. who is the terrorist here ? both are killing innocents for achieving their goal . so there is no difference techically between them .its foolish to think that Milatary option can wipe out insurgency .past 8 years the US failed doing this in Afgan and in Iraq as well .Its not going to suceeed in Pakstan aswell . there are around 200000 Mehsuds and Pashtusn dispaced in this fight and they are surely going to be against the establishments and turn into insurgents ,resulting in more bomb blasts across this region and a possible civil war in Pakistan .there is a big ethinic divide created in Pakistan thanks to the US and its war on terror .Pakistan must say an empathatic no to the US and the forces and try to reslove issues by dialouges and inclusiveness . they must take India,Iran , and afgaistan in confidennce as terror is spilling into these contries as well.We as south asians must understand that US has no intersts in people here other than protecting the fule sources for their benifits . We must voice together for their early exist from this region.We all are victim of terror formented by the th US and its allys . there in only one way out .Get the imperalists out ouf this region and let people manage their issues without the western interference .
Let India or China become the Great Imperialist of the Region?
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Oct 29, 2009 7:20 PM CST Mass killing the Mehsud tribes
bollywood
bollywoodbollywoodTRIVANDRUM, Kerala India53 Threads 2 Polls 973 Posts
ttom500: In both cases, that is like saying.....I have a fight with another man and I kill him.....you should go arrest my neighbor for the killing. In both cases the Taliban attacked mostly non participant parties. More so in the Pakistan attack on women and children.
Less so in the UN attack where election workers were housed. What cowards!

Why not drive the vehicle bomb to a border crossing point....and kill Americans standing there checking vehicles? Because it is easier and more media gaining to get a mass number of civilian deaths into the news.

That you would exclaim the acts of cowards that kill innocent women and children.....says much Hollywood. To what is lacking both in the world and the region. While condemming the US presence and say it caused these acts....terrorism in the region goes back 100s of years. The cause was most often a religious divide.

Should we forget the Hindu atrocities on Moslems as they fled India for the new state of Pakistan of the 1950s? The total US presence in the region at that time....was a embassy in India's capitol.....but of course the US, today should be blamed for it.


Thanks for the insights .You are coming to the point . Would you explain US cowardy act of sending drones to the village and kill people who are not party it to this conflict ? Its equala to some terrorists going around with a suicidal west and blasting them in a crowded bazzar .had they have the access to the Drone technolgoy they also would have resorted to it . sophistication and uniforms dont make a terror act legitimate You have imposed a war on Millions of Iraqis and Afganis who are not party to your conflicts . All Iraqis are not SAddams and All Afganis and Pakistanis are terrorists . so kill the neibhours for your fight with someone else .

Terrorism was not known to this place until US arrived here and created taliban to expless the USSR from Afganistan , Ethinic and religious conflicts have been a part but they cannot be called terrorism .The Modern day terror technology and the prepretors of this terror -Taliban is the creation of the US . the monstor is just gone out of control.

Well as far as I know by 1950s Pakistan had already become a independed country but I dont know Moslems crossed to Pakistan during this time .May be history would have rewritten in the west . Well during the partition time there were a lot of atrocities commmited by moslims and Hindus as well . while you look at the history of Subcontinent division you could see that this divide was created by the British to rule Indian empire its calle Lord Mountbatten "Divede are Rule Policy" they have instigated this division among Hindus and Moslems to creat two nation. The western forces alwasy resort to these kind of tactics to rule the world .its simply beeing carried forward in modern society too.
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Oct 29, 2009 8:26 PM CST Mass killing the Mehsud tribes
Laura25
Laura25Laura25Somewhere, New York USA50 Threads 6 Polls 8,178 Posts
Tbilisigal: Laura . I guess it botheres you who I am than what I post here . You accuse me of hiding behind someone eles picture ..because I am afraid that you will bomb my country because I speak aloud...

Yea, it does. Because you build a bad reputation for a country which you do not belong to.

Tbilisigal: ? what a joke .? where in you are not even brave enough to put a human being picture in your profile . you live "somewhere " so you a scam or me ? Laura I wll be the last one to get out of this forum by bullying .so save that effort for someone else .

Why is that when anybody here expresses an opinion opposite to yours, or presents facts which diminish your opinion to zilch, you accuse them of bullying you? You should realize that discussions DO involve different points of view and if someone's point of view doesn't exactly align with yours, it's not because they don't like you or want you to leave.
I don't come here to quarrel with you...

Tbilisigal: DO yo konw any Idea about FATA ?

And don't ask me if I "konw any Idea about FATA", because I don't "konw any Idea" what you actually want to know... (?) ...be more specific, please.

Tbilisigal: what good those stupid posters going to do than a lip service ?.I have seen a lot of candle vigil and posters whenever something like this happens . It end up in some posh galary and earn more money for that designer .thats all it serve . sheer hypocracy. You must go and see the Amnesty site to see to get some idea about whats going on there even though its largly sensored . I can pick up a lot of links to prove whatever I want ..its not going to solve anyting .

No, (you are right) your picking up a lot of links is not going to solve any of this region century-long problems, but it certainly would be better than you coming to multiple forums spreading lies and venom, because by actually looking into the facts you might learn something along the way too thumbs up

handshake





P.S. Oh, and when you talk about innocent Mehsud tribal villagers, you are NOT talking about Waziristan militants? Not these ones \/\/\/

but you do mean villagers? Like these ones, right? hmmm \/




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Oct 29, 2009 8:35 PM CST Mass killing the Mehsud tribes
alexey8
alexey8alexey8Tel Aviv, Israel10 Threads 4 Polls 1,496 Posts
Laura25:
P.S. Oh, and when you talk about innocent Mehsud tribal villagers, you are NOT talking about Waziristan militants? Not these ones \/\/\/

but you do mean villagers? Like these ones, right? \/







dancing Gooooo Laura! cheering applause cheering
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Oct 29, 2009 8:47 PM CST Mass killing the Mehsud tribes
Laura25
Laura25Laura25Somewhere, New York USA50 Threads 6 Polls 8,178 Posts
Good evening, Alexey wave

The truth is -- I don't like US troops being in that (or any other foreign) region any more that OP does.

But for different reasons: it is not these young boys' and girls' (US Army) responsibility to stabilize this troubled region.
It is so very unfair to them to be in position to clean up the mess they didn't create. Yep, very unfair to them and to their families.
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Oct 29, 2009 8:53 PM CST Mass killing the Mehsud tribes
alexey8
alexey8alexey8Tel Aviv, Israel10 Threads 4 Polls 1,496 Posts
Laura25: Good evening, Alexey

The truth is -- I don't like US troops being in that (or any other foreign) region any more that OP does.

But for different reasons: it is not these young boys' and girls' (US Army) responsibility to stabilize this troubled region.
It is so very unfair to them to be in position to clean up the mess they didn't create. Yep, very unfair to them and to their families.


Well, said Laura thumbs up It should also be remembered that the troops didn't ask to go and invade Iraq or Afghanistan. They didn't ask to go and bomb these areas. They were sent there, and given orders. They make it look so simple, tat a bunch of people dressed up in uniforms flew to the middle east and started killing civilians and its not like that. But, oh well...there is no reason to give a strong argument here, or provide valid arguments and evidence for them, because they made up their minds and don't want to listen to any other sides or opinions, or facts
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Oct 29, 2009 8:56 PM CST Mass killing the Mehsud tribes
scousedon
scousedonscousedonLiverpool, Cheshire, England UK14 Threads 4 Polls 1,643 Posts
Laura25: Good evening, Alexey

The truth is -- I don't like US troops being in that (or any other foreign) region any more that OP does.

But for different reasons: it is not these young boys' and girls' (US Army) responsibility to stabilize this troubled region.
It is so very unfair to them to be in position to clean up the mess they didn't create. Yep, very unfair to them and to their families.


Oh Laura please please please recognise that not only US troops risking lives and losing lives in this area, we feel also the loss of life for our nations soldiers, please don't go down the road of USA standing alone out there, it makes a mockery of the lives our servicemen have sacrificed. I have read your posts and as of yet my first criticism
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Oct 29, 2009 9:02 PM CST Mass killing the Mehsud tribes
alexey8
alexey8alexey8Tel Aviv, Israel10 Threads 4 Polls 1,496 Posts
scousedon: Oh Laura please please please recognise that not only US troops risking lives and losing lives in this area, we feel also the loss of life for our nations soldiers, please don't go down the road of USA standing alone out there, it makes a mockery of the lives our servicemen have sacrificed. I have read your posts and as of yet my first criticism



beer To the brave gals and lads of all the nations who are there
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Oct 29, 2009 9:20 PM CST Mass killing the Mehsud tribes
bollywood
bollywoodbollywoodTRIVANDRUM, Kerala India53 Threads 2 Polls 973 Posts
alexey8: Well, said Laura It should also be remembered that the troops didn't ask to go and invade Iraq or Afghanistan. They didn't ask to go and bomb these areas. They were sent there, and given orders. They make it look so simple, tat a bunch of people dressed up in uniforms flew to the middle east and started killing civilians and its not like that. But, oh well...there is no reason to give a strong argument here, or provide valid arguments and evidence for them, because they made up their minds and don't want to listen to any other sides or opinions, or facts


Hi Alexy
It’s a great to understand your empathy for the soldiers who is fighting there . its Army , sent by the elected representative of your country .You as a nation cannot absolve the responsibility .

All human suffering should be treated equally , your soldiers suffer so are the people in those region as well . its neither their fault to be killed . lose family and loved once in the hands of aliens .they are no party to your fight with Bin laden or whoever it is . Since 2006, 83 U.S. drone attacks in Pakistan have killed between 760 and 1,050 people. Much more that Taliban killed in suicidal attacks .If you go through the Newyork times the counterinsurgency experts David Kilcullen and Andrew Exum, who wrote that drone strikes had "killed some 700 civilians. This is 50 civilians for every militant killed, a hit rate of 2 percent." In other words, in their analysis, 98 percent of those killed in drone attacks were civilians. Since 2006, 83 U.S. drone attacks in Pakistan have killed between 760 and 1,050 people. It is not possible to differentiate precisely between militant and civilian casualties, because the militants live among the population and don't wear uniforms and because the militants have the incentive to claim that all the casualties were civilians, but government sources tend to claim the opposite.

Under President Obama, the strikes have taken out at most half a dozen militant leaders while killing approximately 450 other people. Of those, about 75 percent are reported to have been have been civilians. for the US Drone strikes are an important tool to disrupt al Qaeda and Taliban operations and to kill the leaders of these organizations, but they also consistently kill Pakistani civilians, angering the population and prompting violent acts of revenge from the Pakistani Taliban.

No one is guilty until he is proved to be so . Based of the assumptions we cannot go on a killing spree . You would not hang an American or convict him until you give him a fair chance . If you find a few people guilty of terrorism ..catch them try them according to the law of their land or an international jury . Who in this world give u the right to kill people who are not in war with you ? . so lets have that human touch and empathy for all who suffer here because of whatever interests involved
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Oct 29, 2009 10:14 PM CST Mass killing the Mehsud tribes
alexey8
alexey8alexey8Tel Aviv, Israel10 Threads 4 Polls 1,496 Posts
bollywood:
Who in this world give u the right to kill people who are not in war with you ? . so lets have that human touch and empathy for all who suffer here because of whatever interests involved


(I am replying to your whole post, but its large, so I just quoted the last part to save space.)

Thanks for your reply, well you are right nobody has the right to kill civilians. Not one of us here is justifying the deaths of civilians. The only thing that the others, and myself are trying to point out is that is not such a simple issue. Civilians are killed, but it is not exactly on purpose. There is a legitimate target there, and when there is not, well that is the result of poor or misguided intelligence. But, intelligence is a whole different issue and topic, so I won't get into that.

You have asked why do they use the drones? Well, the simple answer is because a drone is manned by a person on a base on a computer basically. If it gets shot down, nobody dies, it also can go to remote regions un-noticed where, if you sent a group of Humvee you would be noticed from FAR FAR away. So the chance of you being able to hit your target without the target having a chance to escape is very high with the drone. So, military also looks at chance of success, and also the chances of their casualties.

It hard for civilians to understand collateral damage being lives...but, they are looking at their own lives too. Nobody really wants to be killed in combat. So, you do what you need to do to stay alive and keep your own alive. Its a completely different world and way of thinking. And that is what I am trying to say.

That from a civilian view, we will never understand. And we don't accept things the military does on either side, and its because really we don't understand what it is like to be them, the situations they are in and what they face.

I don't disagree with you about civilian casualties, I am just trying to say, that its not such a simple issue.
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