Yes We Can (78)
gardenhackle: The middle class don't seem very appreciative of having streets littered with poor either.
Don't worry, soon there won't be any middle class left to complain.
gardenhackle:
I do think we should do something about jobs, though. Instead of food stamps and entitlement checks for free, work should be required. Maybe cleaning up and fixing up the community around them. Good for everyone from taxpayers to community residents!
I do think we should do something about jobs, though. Instead of food stamps and entitlement checks for free, work should be required. Maybe cleaning up and fixing up the community around them. Good for everyone from taxpayers to community residents!
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gininitaly: Can't speak for the rest of Europe, but Italy's backbone is their families, they watch out for each other... plus mostly free health care that doesn't pauper anyone if they get ill and oddly enough a government that can still debate about a social conscience.
And besides, they're lovers and not fighters... so would never start a war that takes up 45% of the national budget for no reason, because they know damn well what it means to have it on your own doorstep.. as most of Europe does.
And besides, they're lovers and not fighters... so would never start a war that takes up 45% of the national budget for no reason, because they know damn well what it means to have it on your own doorstep.. as most of Europe does.
I think you hit on the big difference. When families look out for each other the needs of family members are met and the family holds them accountable. And so the citizens don't end up with unrealistic expectations of. Having all their wants and needs met by a nanny state funded by the earnings of people they hold in contempt.
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gardenhackle: I think you hit on the big difference. When families look out for each other the needs of family members are met and the family holds them accountable. And so the citizens don't end up with unrealistic expectations of. Having all their wants and needs met by a nanny state funded by the earnings of people they hold in contempt.
Blah blah blah you've just lost you right to discussion.
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gininitaly: Blah blah blah you've just lost you right to discussion.
You don't say?! And what, precisely in the paragraph I posted was the violation of UN Act of politically correct speech that I broke and what due process was used to strip me of such rights? I would hate to think this would be some sort of "I don't like what you're saying so you just shut up" sort of arbitrary judgment call.
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gininitaly: Blah blah blah you've just lost you right to discussion.
Gina, now you understand why I refuse to take but so much of this nonsense from holier-than-thous. You can make sense all day long and it will continuously be thrown back in your face as jibberish.
Even though I'm no expert, especially not on debating...you did a fine job and I thank you for putting it out there!
The only reason I bother is because this IS an international forum and people from all over the world get an idea of what is going on and can take it from there just what is truth and what is falsehood.
Even though, the saying is "actions speak louder than words," I believe that certain words spoken over and over again give you a glimpse of the character or lack there of in a person.
Again, thank you Gina and Mindful!!
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Well I'm often out here roller skating on my own too... so anytime you need backup or a vent 
... I'm here. 
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gardenhackle: "Make-Work" is better than money for nothing, Ray. It gets people used to working and eventually the mindset changes from wanting to not be working at all to getting better paying work. You just have to take "do nothing" off the table.
And yes, it would cost more money than just handing out checks because we would still be handing out the same checks and on top of that, we'd have to manage the "work". I just think we would get a better return for our money in the long run with work being required for pay.
And yes, it would cost more money than just handing out checks because we would still be handing out the same checks and on top of that, we'd have to manage the "work". I just think we would get a better return for our money in the long run with work being required for pay.
It can be done. We have a system in Australia called 'work for the dole'. Those on unemployment benefits are given set hours on community projects. Furthermore, they are given free classes to upgrade skills. Our government initiated these programmes in an effort to curb inter-generational dependence on welfare. With unemployment under 5% here, there is no reason to be long-term unemployed.
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Blues63: It can be done. We have a system in Australia called 'work for the dole'. Those on unemployment benefits are given set hours on community projects. Furthermore, they are given free classes to upgrade skills. Our government initiated these programmes in an effort to curb inter-generational dependence on welfare. With unemployment under 5% here, there is no reason to be long-term unemployed.
It's one of the things we really need to do here. The inter-generational dependence on welfare is one of the biggest problems in this country and it just doesn't have to be that way.
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gardenhackle: It's one of the things we really need to do here. The inter-generational dependence on welfare is one of the biggest problems in this country and it just doesn't have to be that way.
No it doesn't. One of our high profile indigenous activists continually speaks out about this dependence in indigenous culture, much to the derision of his peers, sadly. Of course, it is a feature across all cultures in this country, but this man has the courage to express it.
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gardenhackle: "Inner Drive.... something your born with or not is irrelevent. If you don't have what it takes to do what you have to do to get where you want to go then you need to accept that what you have is what you deserve. Any lack of inner drive on one person's part isn't the fault or responsibility of anyone else. The WILLINGNESS to accept responsibility for your own life and do what you must do in order to better it is the key to success in this country and probably any other. If one's dreams are a full belly and a roof over your head, those are pretty damned easy dreams to achieve and simply working for a living will get you there.
Where anyone in this country ever got the notion that they are owed food, shelter, clothing, health care, retirement and x-amount of pocket money just for living here is beyond me because that's not the way life works.
Where anyone in this country ever got the notion that they are owed food, shelter, clothing, health care, retirement and x-amount of pocket money just for living here is beyond me because that's not the way life works.
I am glad that there are a lot of good people in America who do not mind sharing with those that cannot do for themselves. Some people are just not capable of what you seem to think all are. It only takes one bad accident maybe a bump on ones head and their whole life can change. But I guess for some they cannot put themselves in another's shoes. I am not talking about the ones capable of taking care of themselves. But actually if you come out of the hood you might find there are more people needing work than work. I will never begrudge my money going to a child that needs food or health care or just the basics of life. Or the poor older people who for some reason lose everything at the end of their years and need a little help. Do you really know anything about responsibility. As a humanbeing I feel it is my responsibility to help when someone needs a hand up in life. And yes when someone needs a hand out if I am able. I was taught from a young age to give back to my community where is needed. I wonder though who really has the chip on their shoulder?
Are you always so long winded hackle?
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Proudamerican100: I am glad that there are a lot of good people in America who do not mind sharing with those that cannot do for themselves. Some people are just not capable of what you seem to think all are. It only takes one bad accident maybe a bump on ones head and their whole life can change. But I guess for some they cannot put themselves in another's shoes. I am not talking about the ones capable of taking care of themselves. But actually if you come out of the hood you might find there are more people needing work than work. I will never begrudge my money going to a child that needs food or health care or just the basics of life. Or the poor older people who for some reason lose everything at the end of their years and need a little help. Do you really know anything about responsibility. As a humanbeing I feel it is my responsibility to help when someone needs a hand up in life. And yes when someone needs a hand out if I am able. I was taught from a young age to give back to my community where is needed. I wonder though who really has the chip on their shoulder?
Are you always so long winded hackle?
Are you always so long winded hackle?
Sharing is voluntary. "Owed" is something entirely different. Beggars can't be choosers. It's a wisdom that people would do well to keep in mind.
Is that short-winded enough for you?
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In response to: I think you hit on the big difference. When families look out for each other the needs of family members are met and the family holds them accountable.
This can apply only when people are employed in well paying jobs at some point and they have accumulated property and can afford to be helpful in good times and bad to their family members... does it seem like this could be the option for a single black or hispanic mom in the projects???
The Italians, until recently were a homogeneous country, no race issues, everyone pretty much the same and success depended on hard work and your smarts. In 80 yrs they went from being a predominately agricultural nation, to factory workers and then to becoming college educated professionals... because post war growth allowed them to do that. Now after the Berlin wall tumbled, they are inundated with the east block poor, the war torn African poor and the Muslim poor... health care is strained to the limit (and it is required that ALL resident registered immigrants have health care... a moral conscience once again) trying to do the "Right" thing.
Now we have dawn of the EU and the inflated euro which doubled the price of everything, to America crashing the world economy for the last 10 yrs. All the immigrants that could find work (at lower than minimum wages) are on the streets as factories close one after another, so now there are unemployed immigrants, middle and lower class Italians and Italian professionals on the streets to nowhere... just like most of the rest of Europe.
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Etc, etc ....
Must all be in my mind right?
Must all be in my mind right?
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gininitaly: Etc, etc ....
Must all be in my mind right?
Must all be in my mind right?
Gina, relax. You're in the safety of Italy an don't have to worry about the economy here as Obama continues to tax and spend it onto oblivion.
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Still pay taxes in the states.
And boy.... cold hard facts don't seem to affect you one little bit do they?
And boy.... cold hard facts don't seem to affect you one little bit do they?
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gininitaly: Still pay taxes in the states.
And boy.... cold hard facts don't seem to affect you one little bit do they?
And boy.... cold hard facts don't seem to affect you one little bit do they?
Cold hard facts, always do. I just don't confuse soft steaming piles with cold hard facts. You aren't reliant on the US economy. As the song goes.... "don't worry - be happy".
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Hardly anyone will be paying taxes shortly... if this recession continues. We are massacring the middle class and trashing the poor.
The conglomerates keep firing everyone and getting 'Nanny' money and mega bonuses for being managers whose only solution is moving to third world countries where there are few environmental or human resource laws because they can still show profit to the stockholders... how to keep and pass the buck.
Try doing a little searching around for facts instead of believing Fox news for a change.
Just googled and found this:
So the top 50% paid the majority of taxes in 2007, the latest year recorded on this site. The bottom 50% paid the least, but if you'll look at the figures over the years they're paying less and less... could it be they can't even find a crappy job???
When everyone does well... everyone pays more taxes, and no one in the world gives over 50% of their federal reserves to the military/industrial complex as we do... seems there could be a spare penny of two around if we weren't so busy butting our noses in other peoples business... or would we be as hated.
But don't bother reading... why cloud the illusions
The conglomerates keep firing everyone and getting 'Nanny' money and mega bonuses for being managers whose only solution is moving to third world countries where there are few environmental or human resource laws because they can still show profit to the stockholders... how to keep and pass the buck.
Try doing a little searching around for facts instead of believing Fox news for a change.
Just googled and found this:
So the top 50% paid the majority of taxes in 2007, the latest year recorded on this site. The bottom 50% paid the least, but if you'll look at the figures over the years they're paying less and less... could it be they can't even find a crappy job???
When everyone does well... everyone pays more taxes, and no one in the world gives over 50% of their federal reserves to the military/industrial complex as we do... seems there could be a spare penny of two around if we weren't so busy butting our noses in other peoples business... or would we be as hated.
But don't bother reading... why cloud the illusions
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gardenhackle: Cold hard facts, always do. I just don't confuse soft steaming piles with cold hard facts. You aren't reliant on the US economy. As the song goes.... "don't worry - be happy".
You are indeed starting to show your true colors aren't you?
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And indeed I do... but hey, that would be another superfluous fact wouldn't it?
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Not to mention that since I had too much champagne last night, today I feel as though I don't know "how not to look stupid when debating," because I cannot express how concerned I am at looking stupid on an internet dating site forum!!!!
Oh the drama....... Have a hug.