Greek antiquities in the British Museum. (383)
2intrigued: Don't know Chris, I'd feel rather proud of Canadian artifacts being displayed in other countries so they can be appreciated by the people there. Allows peeps to gain some historical knowledge about the world around them.
This is the point the OP seems to be missing, that when visitors go to museums such as the BM, they don't go to gloat over spoils of war, but to learn about other cultures, thus increasing the tourism to items original country, Greece is in a desperate position at this moment in time, and tourism is the biggest money earner they have, I would have thought any extra tourists drawn from seeing artifacs in the BM, or any museum around the world, would be gratefully received
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I wonder when the Greeks will give back the Macedonians their land. If they had it their way they would have stripped them of their name as well. But this is about Art. Well, maybe this is a "Karma" thing..something about trust. hmmmm makes me wonder.
""Why Greeks don't like Aegean Macedonians:
Greece is afraid to confirm the name Macedonia because if it does that, this also means that they recognize the minority of Aegean Macedonians in Northern Greece. If the Aegean Macedonians in Northern Greece have the status 'minority', they will also have the right to ask back from Greece for their properties and their homes which were stolen by Greeks during the Greek civil war. Greece doesn't want to give back their properties, especially not in that part of Greece which is the only productive and arable land area in the country. Plus, the money we're talking about is estimated to around 20,000,000,000 Euros.For a century now, Greece has continuously and systematically used extreme measures to eliminate all traces of the Macedonian identity. Greece has taken many steps including eradication, expulsion, colonization and forced denationalization. If Greece recognize Macedonia, it will have to pay war reparations to Aegean Macedonians too. Only a fool would think that Greece doesn't recognize Macedonia because of Alexander or Philip. That story is only a mislead to confuse the Greek masses and arouse low passions of the Greeks towards their Greek heritage.""
""Why Greeks don't like Aegean Macedonians:
Greece is afraid to confirm the name Macedonia because if it does that, this also means that they recognize the minority of Aegean Macedonians in Northern Greece. If the Aegean Macedonians in Northern Greece have the status 'minority', they will also have the right to ask back from Greece for their properties and their homes which were stolen by Greeks during the Greek civil war. Greece doesn't want to give back their properties, especially not in that part of Greece which is the only productive and arable land area in the country. Plus, the money we're talking about is estimated to around 20,000,000,000 Euros.For a century now, Greece has continuously and systematically used extreme measures to eliminate all traces of the Macedonian identity. Greece has taken many steps including eradication, expulsion, colonization and forced denationalization. If Greece recognize Macedonia, it will have to pay war reparations to Aegean Macedonians too. Only a fool would think that Greece doesn't recognize Macedonia because of Alexander or Philip. That story is only a mislead to confuse the Greek masses and arouse low passions of the Greeks towards their Greek heritage.""
In response to: Shall the Greek antiguities KEPT in the British Museum??? or RETURNED to it rightful owners??? as officially the Greek government, has demanded for their return.
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You speculate like an art dealer,illegally buying goods from an illegal antiquities excavation.
In the BM is not their heritage,and as about,and of topic,about corrupt officials,you have one on top of your own government exchanging favors with Murdoch,not that we don't have many in Greece. What the financial history of Greece has to do with returning them???? It wouldn't be a financial deal for their return,it has be made crystal clear to the BM,decades back... NO deal they belong to Greece.-
In the BM is not their heritage,and as about,and of topic,about corrupt officials,you have one on top of your own government exchanging favors with Murdoch,not that we don't have many in Greece. What the financial history of Greece has to do with returning them???? It wouldn't be a financial deal for their return,it has be made crystal clear to the BM,decades back... NO deal they belong to Greece.- rizlared: And let be honest here, if the stones were returned, how long before some corrupt official sells them to private collector, and then no one can ever see them again. While in the British Museum they are well cared for and available for anyone to see, for free.
Best place for them at this moment with Greeces financial history. IMO
Best place for them at this moment with Greeces financial history. IMO
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NObody said we aren't going to loan them in other meseums,this practice, of loaning and displying between meseums is well known,but their permanent house,meaning museum,must be their country of origin.
2intrigued: Don't know Chris, I'd feel rather proud of Canadian artifacts being displayed in other countries so they can be appreciated by the people there. Allows peeps to gain some historical knowledge about the world around them.
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With due respect Life the topic is the Elgin marbles'
Its a brand new meseum under the Acropolis,with their own space,waiting the Elgin marbles.
Its a brand new meseum under the Acropolis,with their own space,waiting the Elgin marbles. lifeisadream: Why do Egyptians want their art-property back? To be placed it all jammed and bad taken care of at the Egyptian museum at Cairo?
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chris27292729: With due respect Life the topic is the Elgin marbles' Its a brand new meseum under the Acropolis,with their own space,waiting the Elgin marbles.
And how long will it be before that museum is closed due to the austerity in Greece. How many museums have now been closed due to the cuts that have been made.------ This thread is Archived ------
chris27292729: There is a movement from countries having their artifacts housed in other countries meseum,for their return in the country who created them,and the latest is Egypt,demanding their own artifacts.Going in a museum admiring antiquities,belonging to another country,fleetingly comes in someone's mind the country of their origin,and for my liking, is better to be housed in their creators land.
lifeisadream: Why do Egyptians want their art-property back? To be placed it all jammed and bad taken care of at the Egyptian museum at Cairo?
chris27292729: With due respect Life the topic is the Elgin marbles' Its a brand new meseum under the Acropolis,with their own space,waiting the Elgin marbles.
It looks like someone has lost his marbles too
Out of this thread too or maybe not
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almera03: And how long will it be before that museum is closed due to the austerity in Greece. How many museums have now been closed due to the cuts that have been made.
Which was exactly my point, when I spoke about Greek finances I was not suggesting they or the UK pay money, but the actually cost of maintaining such antiquities, Greece has no money,the last thing they need right now is a costly museum to upkeep
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chris27292729: With due respect Life the topic is the Elgin marbles' Its a brand new meseum under the Acropolis,with their own space,waiting the Elgin marbles.
Just curious Chris
Have you been at "the brand new museum under the Acropolis" ?
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chris27292729: There is not solid proof that Elgin purchased them from the Ottomans.
And no proof that he did not. To complicate this, the British Museum agrees with you however says that he was granted permission to take them by the Ottomans as a reward for his actions on their behalf in Egypt.
""t is a popular misconception that Elgin purchased the antiquities. In fact the firman was granted to him as a personal gesture after he encouraged the British forces in their fight to drive the French out of Egypt, which was then an Ottoman possession.""
chris27292729: There is no way,the Greek government will buy them back,it has made its position crystal clear.
Then for certain they will remain in Britain.
chris27292729: Illegally removed from the Acropolis,and illegally the British Museum is housing the heritage of Greece's creations.
Chris, the onus of proof that they were not purchased or given to the British by the Ottomans is Greece's. To call it illegal when there is no way the works could have been removed without the permission of the Ottomans in some way shape or form and for whatever reason is errant.
chris27292729: Greece and the British Museum,might come in some sort of financial agreement. A war of words is going on, everytime the subject of returning them comes up,between the BM and the Greek government.- And who is going to bid in a auction,knowning there is NO chance to win in a court of law???.
If the British decide the Greeks have a leg to stand on then Greece would have a leg to stand on thus making a sale a possibility.
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Leave the side tracking for somebody else,about tourism,tourist they can admire the Elgin marbles in their place of birth Greece,and where they are housed right now is not their place of birth,unless you claim somebody's elses heritage as your own.Isn't better for tourist to go up the Acropolis to admire what has been left standing there,and afterwords moving to the new Acropolis museum just under, to admire the Elgin marbles and the rest items inside.???? And an answer to your sentence in your post.-
rizlared: This is the point the OP seems to be missing, that when visitors go to museums such as the BM, they don't go to gloat over spoils of war, but to learn about other cultures, thus increasing the tourism to items original country, Greece is in a desperate position at this moment in time, and tourism is the biggest money earner they have, I would have thought any extra tourists drawn from seeing artifacs in the BM, or any museum around the world, would be gratefully received
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You are of topic. Just a reminder,The first President of FYROM,Former Yougoslav Republic Of Macedonia,as is Known in UN,22 years ago said."We are not Greeks we are Slavs".So why Slavs want to capitalise as their own the name Macedonia is beyont me. And Nico,why don't you create your own thread,am prepared to take part and discuss the pron and cons.
Nikogas: I wonder when the Greeks will give back the Macedonians their land. If they had it their way they would have stripped them of their name as well. But this is about Art. Well, maybe this is a "Karma" thing..something about trust. hmmmm makes me wonder.
""Why Greeks don't like Aegean Macedonians:
Greece is afraid to confirm the name Macedonia because if it does that, this also means that they recognize the minority of Aegean Macedonians in Northern Greece. If the Aegean Macedonians in Northern Greece have the status 'minority', they will also have the right to ask back from Greece for their properties and their homes which were stolen by Greeks during the Greek civil war. Greece doesn't want to give back their properties, especially not in that part of Greece which is the only productive and arable land area in the country. Plus, the money we're talking about is estimated to around 20,000,000,000 Euros.For a century now, Greece has continuously and systematically used extreme measures to eliminate all traces of the Macedonian identity. Greece has taken many steps including eradication, expulsion, colonization and forced denationalization. If Greece recognize Macedonia, it will have to pay war reparations to Aegean Macedonians too. Only a fool would think that Greece doesn't recognize Macedonia because of Alexander or Philip. That story is only a mislead to confuse the Greek masses and arouse low passions of the Greeks towards their Greek heritage.""
""Why Greeks don't like Aegean Macedonians:
Greece is afraid to confirm the name Macedonia because if it does that, this also means that they recognize the minority of Aegean Macedonians in Northern Greece. If the Aegean Macedonians in Northern Greece have the status 'minority', they will also have the right to ask back from Greece for their properties and their homes which were stolen by Greeks during the Greek civil war. Greece doesn't want to give back their properties, especially not in that part of Greece which is the only productive and arable land area in the country. Plus, the money we're talking about is estimated to around 20,000,000,000 Euros.For a century now, Greece has continuously and systematically used extreme measures to eliminate all traces of the Macedonian identity. Greece has taken many steps including eradication, expulsion, colonization and forced denationalization. If Greece recognize Macedonia, it will have to pay war reparations to Aegean Macedonians too. Only a fool would think that Greece doesn't recognize Macedonia because of Alexander or Philip. That story is only a mislead to confuse the Greek masses and arouse low passions of the Greeks towards their Greek heritage.""
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Never mind what we going to do with them,the new meseum has allocated space for the Elgin marbles.The Elgin marbles belong to Greece,is our heritage,Not yours.
rizlared: Which was exactly my point, when I spoke about Greek finances I was not suggesting they or the UK pay money, but the actually cost of maintaining such antiquities, Greece has no money,the last thing they need right now is a costly museum to upkeep
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chris27292729: You are of topic. Just a reminder,The first President of FYROM,Former Yougoslav Republic Of Macedonia,as is Known in UN,22 years ago said."We are not Greeks we are Slavs".So why Slavs want to capitalise as their own the name Macedonia is beyont me. And Nico,why don't you create your own thread,am prepared to take part and discuss the pron and cons.
Is he off topic, your agrument is "ownership" and giving back....May I ask, are there any other Countries Artifacts being held in any Greek museum?
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Wow of all the posts in this thread you come in and pick on mine. At least have the decency to have a picture up. You fail to think about the in-fighting that would have gone on in Countries you kindly mentioned, the stealing, assassinations, tribal conflicts etc etc, where Artifacts would have traded hands one way or another, and then sold to others not in those Countries, so no, leave your head rubbing for someone else.
Don't blame me almera. Your 'arguments' were that juvenile (deliberately r otherwise). We are talking of nations here, not of states. Like UK, not britain, Scotland, wales etc. Got it? And 'trading' stolen artifacts, how legal and moral is that?
Don't blame me almera. Your 'arguments' were that juvenile (deliberately r otherwise). We are talking of nations here, not of states. Like UK, not britain, Scotland, wales etc. Got it? And 'trading' stolen artifacts, how legal and moral is that?
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Yes,
lifeisadream: Just curious ChrisHave you been at "the brand new museum under the Acropolis" ?
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chris27292729: Yes, mainly by Phidias and his pupils.-
"Pupils"?You mean his gay lovers!
Correct me if I´m wrong,but wasn´t Phidias,(and Praxiteles),-p*dophile?
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JeanKimberley: did ya check the British Museum....
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See my answer to Life's post.
almera03: Is he off topic, your agrument is "ownership" and giving back....
May I ask, are there any other Countries Artifacts being held in any Greek museum?
May I ask, are there any other Countries Artifacts being held in any Greek museum?
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Yes, I know E and that can happen again.
Best place for them at this moment with Greeces financial history. IMO
Once I was admiring a lovely piece of art in a European Museum Riz but then I did think,
Is it the real thing? How can I be sure of it?
Then I went to the front desk and ask for a person in charge and a Lady came to answer my question.
She said:
What you are looking at is a “replica”.
The real thing is saved and protected in a very high security warehouse, humidity-temperature controlled, protected against flooding earthquakes, etc…So next time someone thinks s/he is looking at real art-history it might be just a replica of it.
As you have said some corrupt people could sell the real one and place the "fake" ones in museums.
The British Museum has done a marvelous work preserving all that treasure for humanity. I wonder if changing the museum name would be more acceptable for them to keep all that art-history.
What about “The museum of the world” or just “Humanity Heritage” and if Greece can afford to host such a vast collection, let them have it.